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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Misc
New forum members confusing?...
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LazY Puppy


Joined: 21 Nov 2014
Posts: 2007
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue 14 Feb 2017, 18:15    Post subject:  New forum members confusing?...  

To me something seems to have changed on the Puppy Linux Murga Forum.

- new members requesting stuff, but don't using it later after it's available in a likewise similar form
- new members asking questions by pm and giving thanks by pm, though never reply to a specific question about the issue
- new members that even don't seem to recognize replies
- old members not replying to specific questions but answering to newbies in a expert (more generally) way


What's going on here?

Has this forum turned into something like facts turning into alternate facts or reverse?
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perdido


Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 1291
Location: ¿Altair IV , Just north of Eeyore Junction.?

PostPosted: Tue 14 Feb 2017, 20:18    Post subject:  

Hi L.P.

I am guilty of not always replying, but sometimes I do not have the info requested so remain silent and watch.

I saw the thread at the top of forum and replied, might help, might not Wink

Bizarro World is real!


.

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cthisbear

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 4389
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Wed 15 Feb 2017, 05:15    Post subject:  

LazY Puppy:

There seems to be a number of members missing in action lately.

But then again Lobster and ttuuxxx surfaced this week.
Welcome back.

Too much politics turning people off.
Whingeing about Trump...woe is me types...
getting to be a real turnoff.

Nearly thought gcmartin had a point about the off topic area.
Ugly moment for me.
Need a bit more humour here on Puppy.

Suck it up yanks.
Clinton was a full on bitch.
Should hate myself....but hey! my detractors will be here soon.

And as for helping people out.
Some get it and reply back.
Others....

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=739619#739619

Anyway mate keep on Choogling.

Cheers...Chris.
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nic007


Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 2936
Location: Cradle of Humankind

PostPosted: Wed 15 Feb 2017, 07:23    Post subject:  

I think with new members we should be a little more careful. Just answer what they ask (although sometimes this is difficult because they don't give you feedback on relevant questions you ask them). Anyways - I think we should not give too much information in the first place as this may be confusing to them. Better still - refer them to a thread in the forum where their questions have already been addressed. Some self-study/reading is a good thing.
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Burn_IT


Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 3502
Location: Tamworth UK

PostPosted: Wed 15 Feb 2017, 08:03    Post subject:  

I think it is a general trend in society that people are becoming more selfish.

I tend to "help" by pointing out where to go to look up the answer rather than answering directly.

It is the old "Give a man a fish....." thought.

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Fossil


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 1154
Location: Gloucestershire, UK.

PostPosted: Wed 15 Feb 2017, 09:02    Post subject:  

Years ago, getting an answer mean either going down to the library and finding a book - reading too! Or, posting via letter - remember that? - and awaiting a slow reply. Forward to today. Heads down, walking unheedingly, sometimes into traffic, while texting and viewing their 'smartphones'; the whole population is now on a primary knowledge overload - let alone the useless 'stuff' that fills the normal day-to-day existence, gratifies the superficial - desiring everything, fast! Little wonder that everyone wants an 'instant' does-it-all-out-the-box answer. The major problem with technology is, just that - it's complex and certainly not unified, so that one system/computer is very different to another similar model created by a different manufacturer. There is no simple answer.
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perdido


Joined: 09 Dec 2013
Posts: 1291
Location: ¿Altair IV , Just north of Eeyore Junction.?

PostPosted: Wed 15 Feb 2017, 10:04    Post subject:  

Fossil wrote:
There is no simple answer.


Amen!
Many new users here have never seen Linux and are here because puppy just booted their machine.

When browsing this forum for the first time it is intimidating.
Lots of acronyms and abbreviations, not to mention the cryptic names of the programs and the different names for the same
thing, such as terminal, command prompt, shell, console, etc.

If a new member asks a question and the help wanders even a little from the subject, that will in many instances scare people
away rather than help, even though the person helping had nothing but good intentions.

In almost every instance it is assumed the person asking the question wants to learn the "why" along with the solution.
When it looks overly-complicated is where we lose people. Also, more than one person supplying help can get really complicated

I think when a new forum member does not reply to all the questions they are asked it is more that they have been
overwhelmed than that they are ignoring the questions. And the language barrier presents additional problems.

Hell, I get confused here every time I browse around Wink

.

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belham2

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1664

PostPosted: Wed 15 Feb 2017, 15:12    Post subject:  

LOL @Burn_IT, you are KIDDING, right? Helpfully point people to where the solution is? Were you possibly drunk when you wrote that in this thread? Laughing

For those that wanna laugh, read Burn_IT's response to my thread in "Users" the other day (there's a ton of real gems like these from just the past 12 months of responding to diferent people on murga, in this exact same manner):

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=109669

If I already didn't know you as the cantankerous, irasicible, grump that you are, I would have been offended. But as I know you over the past few years here on Murga, that this is your idea of "help" and is normal, I just laughed it off.

But imagine if it was a new user asking that, or one with only a few months under their belts, and you wrote that sort of pithy response. Translation: Rolling Eyes There's another new user lost.......
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dancytron

Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Posts: 1306

PostPosted: Wed 15 Feb 2017, 15:31    Post subject:  

I think part of the problem is inherent in Puppy specifically and really Linux gererally.

There are 10 different ways to do everything and everybody has their favorite way and advocates for it. For a newbie, it is very confusing and intimidating. They just want something that works and that they can set up so they can use their computer. Instead, they get a debate between which is the best way to set up a USB drive, why they should or shouldn't burn Puppy to a CD first, etc etc. It is particularly bad when they come to the forum with a bad setup (full install on a usb as an example) and want to make it work.

I don't know if there is a solution, it may just be the nature of the beast.
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Burn_IT


Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 3502
Location: Tamworth UK

PostPosted: Wed 15 Feb 2017, 15:46    Post subject:  

No I was not drunk.
You are rapidly getting to the stage where you are going to get suitable replies.
With your attitude you are going to be banned pretty soon.
I have never yet asked the moderators to remove anybody, but in your case I could happily make an exception.


Mods intervene!!

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mostly_lurking

Joined: 25 Jun 2014
Posts: 321

PostPosted: Wed 15 Feb 2017, 16:57    Post subject:  

LazY Puppy wrote:
To me something seems to have changed on the Puppy Linux Murga Forum.

- new members requesting stuff, but don't using it later after it's available in a likewise similar form
- new members asking questions by pm and giving thanks by pm, though never reply to a specific question about the issue
- new members that even don't seem to recognize replies
- old members not replying to specific questions but answering to newbies in a expert (more generally) way

I've noticed some weird interactions here - including people mentioning conversations via PM rather than posting their issues for everyone to see, and users who were seemingly oblivious to responses they've received. No idea if that's a new thing, though.

@ others: I very much agree with the notion that the forum can be intimidating for new users, especially when they receive "overwhelming" responses.

A lot can go wrong when people ask for help, or try to help others, even if everyone has only the best intentions. I've thought about what some of the typical mistakes are; a few have been mentioned here already.

Mistakes by people who are asking for help:

Confusing questions
The user doesn't make clear what exactly he/she wants, so others deliver "best guess" responses. The result is confusion on both sides and time wasted on inapproprite problem fixes. Language problems are probably responsible for many of these misunderstandings.

Too little information
The user doesn't provide enough information for anyone to help effectively - for example, they can't get a program to run, but do not mention which package and dependencies they installed, what Puppy they are using, which error messages they get, etc. Some even fail to follow up with that information when specifically asked for it.

Too little feedback
A user asks a question and gets some replies, but doesn't report back on whether they were helpful, or only answers in the vaguest terms.

Laziness and ignorance
A user reports every little problem on the forum without even trying to solve it on his/her own first or trying to find a solution online, instead waiting for someone to come up with a ready-made fix. Consequentially, this person will never learn anything. Whether this user is just lazy, or stuck in an "I'm just not a tech person" mindset, is anyone's guess.

Mistakes by people who are trying to help others:

Too many choices
A classical example: someone asks which Puppy they should get for their particular computer, and 5 people reply with recommendations for 10 different Puppies, ranging from mainstream versions to their own obscure favorites, often without explaining how these versions differ from each other, and what each one's advantages are. Plus 10 more recommendations for bootloaders and installation helper apps.

Too much information
A user asks a seemingly simple question - for example, how to do a frugal install - and is overwhelmed not only by the above-metioned recommendations of Puppy versions, bootloaders and installers, but also by several lengthy descriptions of various installation methods; walls of text that cover everything from the choice of boot media, over BIOS settings that may or may not be needed, to anything that could possibly go wrong and warrant a start-over... making the task seem impossibly complex, when all they were asking for was how to get the ISO's content onto the drive. I think in many cases, a fairly basic how-to would be less intimidating. If the user still has trouble then, any specific questions can be addressed.

Too little information (again)
This tends to come in the form of a terminal command or a download link for some package, with no explanation on what it does or why it is needed, resulting in a user who does something without understanding how or why. They might get their problem fixed, but they won't learn anything from it. Another problem are experienced users who throw unexplained technical terms at newbies, even if the newcomer has specifically mentioned to have no tech knowledge.

Unhelpful advice
This can happen when the helper doesn't read the request thoroughly and ends up suggesting a solution for something that's not the actual problem, or if they post something about a topic with which they are not too familiar and don't check their facts first.

Dragging discussions off-topic
Any talk that's not related to the original poster's question does not only distract from the problem that needs to be solved, but it may also give him/her the feeling of being ignored, or not being taken seriously.
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6502coder


Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 623
Location: Western United States

PostPosted: Wed 15 Feb 2017, 18:18    Post subject:  

@mostly_lurking: that's well said.

I have sometimes responded to an OP with a PM, under the theory that by NOT posting in public on the forum, I won't touch off (or add to) a bunch of replies from other people disagreeing with me, thereby overwhelming the OP with contradictory advice. My unscientific conclusion is that more often than not, this approach has worked. I've been able (I think) to help a number of people through PM exchanges that were initiated in this way. I think it's best for the help-seeker to work through his/her problem methodically with ONE "expert" at time, so that the advice they get is at least internally consistent. Anyway, that's been my rationale.
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Moat


Joined: 16 Jul 2013
Posts: 963
Location: Mid-mitten

PostPosted: Thu 16 Feb 2017, 04:01    Post subject:  

6502coder wrote:
@mostly_lurking: that's well said.


+1!!

Bob
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amigo

Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 2647

PostPosted: Thu 16 Feb 2017, 05:28    Post subject:  

Actually, this forum is none other than the birthplace of 'alternative facts'. No single solution to a question has ever been offered here which would work on any, or even most puppy/user combinations. It may well be that no single solution has ever worked for _any_ other version/user.

In this place, all assumptions are off the table. Nothing is as you expect.
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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 14196
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Thu 16 Feb 2017, 05:35    Post subject:  

Yes, amigo, please confuse everyone a little more! Laughing
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musher0
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Je suis né pour aimer et non pas pour haïr. (Sophocle) /
I was born to love and not to hate. (Sophocles)
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