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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Projects
DebianDog - Jessie - Continued
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backi

Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 1563
Location: GERMANY

PostPosted: Thu 06 Jul 2017, 15:05    Post subject:  

edit
Last edited by backi on Thu 06 Jul 2017, 16:56; edited 3 times in total
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saintless


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 3882
Location: Bulgaria

PostPosted: Thu 06 Jul 2017, 15:42    Post subject:  

Hi William.
mcewanw wrote:
Personally, I have a lot of time for both the purists (Toni etc) and the non-purists (Fred, as I see it) - but the two seem to have difficulty accepting the others different mindset. And Fred hasn't seemed to recognise that others truly can't modify or use/develop his scripts (EDIT: not for further distribution anyway) if left without a license giving permission.

No. We agreed about the licenses and keeping non-free inside the iso images. I did the licensing work in all repositories. I uploaded MintPup and DebianDog-Squeeze in the organisation repo and finished the fixing in both. I even defended Fred after anikin's comment about the locales module.
But you and Fred didn't accept I can speak with anikin without anger or names calling. I didn't play with you the "bad troll story song" and you both got mad. I don't know why. One day you will see it re-reading those pages.

DebianDog is in very good hands now - the gentle hands of free open source project. As it was and always should be.

Toni

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mcewanw

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 3199

PostPosted: Thu 06 Jul 2017, 17:24    Post subject:  

saintless wrote:

DebianDog is in very good hands now - the gentle hands of free open source project. As it was and always should be.


Well, at least I like your new, and almost unexpected, discourse of optimism. It almost comes across as 'bright' in what has been a very dark period for DebianDog. A downhill period, which was aggravated and perhaps stirred-up out of control by one insanely jealous and pathetic dark force of destruction, despite your other comments to the contrary, and I'm not talking about Fred or yourself, and not even me!!! If you do remain active I'm pretty sure it will one day be you who changes your mind (again) about that particularly meaningless individual. Yes, I'm sure Fred agrees on at least that much, though I never discussed the matter ever with Fred, but formed my own opinion from the devilish wee monkey's (twittwo) caustic attitude (an attitude, I note, that he sometimes pretends to lose - don't be fooled by that backi...).
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backi

Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 1563
Location: GERMANY

PostPosted: Fri 07 Jul 2017, 01:59    Post subject:  

anikin wrote :
Quote:
The real significance of DebianDog is this: The future of Puppy Linux depends on it. Under the current, woof system Puppy has absolutely no future. It can only survive if it adopts The DD Mode


D-D is "The best Thing since sliced Bread "

Despite his (anikins ) rude and provoking attitude and the fact he is writing a lot of nonsense ,this seems to be one of his more constructive statements i could agree with .....(from my amateurish point of view ) .

What`s the opinion of the "experts" ?
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mcewanw

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 3199

PostPosted: Fri 07 Jul 2017, 04:47    Post subject:  

backi, I think it would be good if I, and everyone, could try and get back onto thread topics. Nevertheless, I wouldn't wish to compare Puppy with DebianDog at all (aside from look and feel) since they are totally different. I would rather compare DD with the likes of Crunchbang, Elive, something like Trisquel Mini, and Porteus for other obvious reasons - because that comparison shows that DD/XenialDog and so are quite unique - can't find something quite like them out there.

I note that someone has created a list of 50+ best light linuxes and posted link on Puppy forum thread here:

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=959785#959785

Neither FatDog nor DebianDog (and the really quite different, in many ways, XenialDog, which a lot of Ubuntu fans would love) are mentioned on that list, and there is the issue I'd highlight. Also, the bickering in DebianDog no doubt would not help inclusion on any such list, despite its obvious qualities and differences to all other such light linuxes in practice...

Don't think that has anything whatsoever to do with woof-CE Puppy future per se though - BarryK's OpenEmbedded interest seems more useful for future of Puppy itself IMO. DebianDog is afterall one of many DebianLive created distros, but a kind of unusual one in being so relatively small download with Puppylike facilities (FatDog also has a great deal of similar merit IMO and it is not built on woof-CE either).

Should be posted in another thread though - not sure where.

William
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backi

Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 1563
Location: GERMANY

PostPosted: Fri 07 Jul 2017, 06:23    Post subject:  

O.K !!!
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mcewanw

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 3199

PostPosted: Fri 07 Jul 2017, 10:17    Post subject:  

If DebianDog was really going to become a major mini distribution it really needs the github/website/wiki facilities developed and, indeed, own forum, and forget about being on murga forum where it is basically a not-advertised hidden little system that outsiders probably don't even notice. Truly it has very little to do with Puppy Linux - I guess we just don't have the team or time to have much of a dedicated webite/resources for it - that would be the key to DebianDog actually having a presence in the 'history' of available distributions. Not any particular importance in the bigger history of Linux - that is just nonsense - its just another variant of using initramfs and aufs overlay mechanisms, using basic ideas of others and particularly DebianLive and Porteus schemes really - that comment doesn't take away the fact that it is tons of work to produce the DD variant though, but really Fred and Toni were just learning a lot more about DebianLive/Porteus methods as they went along (correct me if I am wrong...).

I really like the way BarryK explains his own experiments with layering (e.g. overlay or aufs with his EasyLinux system) - producing own system really is just a lot to do with studying how such mechanisms work, and writing the boot-up scripts based on that. Been much easier to make DebianDog since more just a matter of learning the basics of already available DebianLive initrd scripts and so on, and similarly for using Porteus initrd script as an alternative - let's be honest about this. I think BarryK EasyLinux is a more exciting platform to learn how such things work - DebianDogs are very good for people wanting to get started with Debian-type systems more generally - and nice to have that Puppy look and feel too - so DDs are useful out of the box as neat little desktop OS systems (EasyLinux maybe nicer as a experimentors platform - or role your own by simply studying initramfs and overlay or aufs methodology along with scripting etc - lot of work though... Pelo hates that kind of thing - he and maybe most just want a working system. I like a working system too, but being from an engineering background I also like to play with system internals - maybe just as an intellectual playground exercise to help us never grow up - maybe that's why (so-called) developers can be so childish cos they are living in some frozen NeverNeverLand which is slowly being eroded by the bigger players such as Google (Android) and so on?

William
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Ether

Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 131

PostPosted: Fri 07 Jul 2017, 11:03    Post subject:  

.

Here's what makes Debian Dog so very useful to me:

1) simple frugal install using GRUB4DOS, and

2) it works without fuss with almost everything I've tried in the Debian repo, and

3) I can make individual squashfs files for Debian repo apps I want, and can load them on-the-fly so I don't have to boot with them when I don't want them

Puppy used to be my go-to Linux until Deb Dog came along.

I have yet to find a Puppy distro which consistently and reliably does #2 in the above list.


.
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backi

Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 1563
Location: GERMANY

PostPosted: Fri 07 Jul 2017, 11:11    Post subject:  

Good summary and quite inspiring/refreshing to read mcewanw ........ .food for thoughts ....sophisticated entertainment too .So long mcewanw ..., and thanks for all the fish . Laughing Laughing Laughing
Last edited by backi on Fri 07 Jul 2017, 11:27; edited 2 times in total
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backi

Joined: 27 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Fri 07 Jul 2017, 11:16    Post subject:  

From the view point of an average user Ether summed it all up .....
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johnywhy


Joined: 20 Aug 2011
Posts: 872

PostPosted: Mon 03 Sep 2018, 16:05    Post subject:  

Long-winded 2 cents from a johny-come-lately. i'm just discovering DD (thx mikeslr!) after years of using various puppies.

Several years ago, tiny, fast, and an actual gui desktop first drew me to Puppy. My goal was/is an OS i can share with non-geek friends, so they have a solid, easy alternative to Windows. All these years, I've really been searching for/trying to cobble together, an OS with these attributes:

- tiny RAM-footprint
- non-geek-friendly desktop, elegant, simple, modern. For me, that can only mean xfce.
- compatibility with major repos.
- great performance on resource-limited machines.
- able to remaster a quick-start, never-need-CLI version.
- non-root desktop.

Atm, Porteus and DD (and it's variations) are top contenders. So far, Porteus is winning, cuz too many bugs or missing xfce features in Jessie. Issues i found just in my first few minutes on DD: https://github.com/DebianDog/Jessie/issues/4

i'm soon to try XenialPup, TrinityDog, MintPup, and DD sid. We'll see.

Xtahr Puppy is a runner up-- runs awesomely. Hits all my wanna's, except (as with all puppies) limited support for major repos.

(Xslacko Slim, alas, has seemed buggie and it's xfce less fully-implemented than xtahr, tho' i haven't tried the new Aug '18 release yet).

I've struggled a lot with remastering puppy. Non-root desktop isn't available on any puppy i know.

mcewanw wrote:
I wouldn't wish to compare Puppy with DebianDog at all (aside from look and feel)

Hah! Laughing No offense to anyone, but imho stock jwm puppy desktop is not very attractive or non-geek-friendly. I was surprised to read one of DD's goals was to look and feel like puppy (why??? Shocked Of all the things i love about puppy, look and feel isn't one of them! xfce fixes that, for me.

What i love about puppy is tiny and fast, even on old hardware. Tiny and fast is what i like about DD.

Quote:
it has very little to do with Puppy

i'm not a puppy dev, but based on my minimal understanding, it seems that puppy was first to crush the ram footprint of xfce (by not running slim, i think, plus openbox, i think). So it seems that's a major thing that DD inherited from Puppy. Like xtarh, DD idles under 80MB at boot. So, i think DD inherited some crucial things from Puppy.

Porteus 32 bit, the closest competitor, idles about 170MB at boot (best that i've achieved so far). Hoping the dog can teach porteus some new tricks: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=114210

THX

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Now: X-Tahr 2.0! StretchDog! DevuanDog!
Tops: TarhNOP Vlina-R2 Racy
Used: Puppeee Precise Lucid Wary Tahrpup Quirky Slacko MacPup Saluki Puppy Studio LxPupTarh Lina-Lite Lina
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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 957
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Mon 03 Sep 2018, 17:47    Post subject:  

johnywhy wrote:

Hah! Laughing No offense to anyone, but imho stock jwm puppy desktop is not very attractive or non-geek-friendly. I was surprised to read one of DD's goals was to look and feel like puppy (why??? Shocked Of all the things i love about puppy, look and feel isn't one of them! xfce fixes that, for me.


DD Jessie is pretty old. All the newer Dogs use openbox per Fred's setup. Much nicer. By not using full xfce, it is a much slimmer distribution, but still with the nice features openbox provides (e.g. ability to open app files by dropping file onto active app taskbar button - JWM doesn't seem able to do that, which is my main negative against JWM actually). You may still have a few things needing tweaked (mouse theming perhaps - I don't know) but all minor I'd say.

I'm not a fan of Puppy's look actually, and DD is only really like Puppy in that it installs in small size, uses low resources, has great re-mastering capability (possibly better than Puppy), has great squashfs loading/unloading facilities, lots of nice utilities (including various util/apps it took from Puppy). However, of course, massive plus is that it has full apt-get/dpkg/Synaptics capability, so proper Debian/Ubuntu distributions. I use XenialDog, but BionicDog nice too. I don't use Stretch, but I am sure it is fine if you like that Debian base in preference to Ubuntu.

wiak
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 2699
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Mon 03 Sep 2018, 20:19    Post subject:  

Hi johnywhy,

May I suggest that the following may be the way in which you can get the most out of the 'DebianDogs'. Start with either BionicDog, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=989363#989363 or --perhaps better considering the later step--stretchdog, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=970485#970485. Don't worry about the Window Manager for the moment. As you already know how debian (and probably Ubuntu) function, what you want to do is become familiar with using the unique tools built into the DebianDogs, including those relating to remastering. Saintless was very conscientious about providing solid documentation, and fred has continued to do so.

Once you feel confident in knowing the DebianDogs' potential, use either rcrsn51's Debian-Stretch-Live Starter Kit, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=983654#983654 or fred's Create Debian 9 (Stretch) minimal ISO, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=962752#962752 to create a debiandog which meets your demands*. Fred's script may make it easier to start out with Xfce as your Window Manager, but the 9 pages on rcrsn51's starter kit thread is packed full of useful information.

As far as I can tell, there appears to be very little advantage in an Ubuntu based operating system over a debian-based one; even less so if you, like I, prefer the xfce window manager.

mikesLr

* The only excuse I have for not, myself, following the above advice is that I would have to --like I advised you-- familiarize myself with all the tools built into the DebianDogs and unlike you using apt isn't something to which I've grown accustomed. That, and I spend too much time giving advice. Laughing

Last edited by mikeslr on Mon 03 Sep 2018, 20:22; edited 1 time in total
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Mon 03 Sep 2018, 20:19    Post subject:  

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Moat


Joined: 16 Jul 2013
Posts: 922
Location: Mid-mitten

PostPosted: Mon 03 Sep 2018, 20:20    Post subject:  

wiak wrote:
... and DD is only really like Puppy in that it ...


... installs to and runs from a USB flash drive - with persistence (savefile) - fast and beautifully!! That, to me, is one of the defining traits and most attractive feature of Puppies & Dogs. All of the other features mentioned by wiak above (especially the Dog's remastering and Synaptic/apt) = sweet icing on the cake. Cool

And a big +1 to what mikeslr mentioned above.

Bob
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