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quirkian2new

Joined: 06 Oct 2015
Posts: 143
Location: on the inter-planet train

PostPosted: Thu 15 Sep 2016, 20:55    Post subject:  

i came across mini canbike :
http://www.canbike.org/off-topic/linux/mini-can-bike-1-0-1.html

i downloaded the iso, open it and see lots of tcz file in /cde/optional.

I like mini canbike 's idea of running totally in ram but finally gave up becos:
1. i dont want to burn a cd, just want frugal boot
2. i googled and find very little info about tinycore remastering.

I hope this mini canbike (iso file 109mb with firefox41.tcz 51mb) were a puppyfied one that can be boot with only 2 files
i,e. vmlinuz and core.gz (other tcz files can then be loaded on demand as puppy pets). And users can then remaster with a simple built-in remaster script to make their own flavour.
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 1112

PostPosted: Thu 15 Sep 2016, 22:13    Post subject:  

moved to the top of thread
Last edited by wanderer on Fri 16 Sep 2016, 13:42; edited 1 time in total
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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 1876
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Fri 16 Sep 2016, 00:21    Post subject:  

quirkian2new wrote:
i came across mini canbike :
http://www.canbike.org/off-topic/linux/mini-can-bike-1-0-1.html

i downloaded the iso, open it and see lots of tcz file in /cde/optional.

I like mini canbike 's idea of running totally in ram but finally gave up becos:
1. i dont want to burn a cd, just want frugal boot
2. i googled and find very little info about tinycore remastering.

I hope this mini canbike (iso file 109mb with firefox41.tcz 51mb) were a puppyfied one that can be boot with only 2 files
i,e. vmlinuz and core.gz (other tcz files can then be loaded on demand as puppy pets). And users can then remaster with a simple built-in remaster script to make their own flavour.


109 MB including firefox 4.1 is clearly very good. I did a lot of tinycore installations some years ago and certainly you don't need to burn the iso to CD, you can easily get it to boot in frugal configuration with vmlinuz and core gz as you desire. Of course you do also need the tce folder with the tcz's stored in optional, but that's no issue either. Just read up on how to boot tinycore as frugal OS and you should be able to simply extract the necessary files from the iso and write a suitable grub4dos menu.lst to do the booting. Need to add gtkdialog (if not already part of it) and simple job to get many Puppy-created apps/utilities working with it.

Alternatively, no problem just downloading tinycore iso and creating whatever you like from scratch and making it 'Puppy-like'. Once it is configured (which is the main work to do), these configurations could just be put in their own tcz for loading at boottime (rather than ondemand) for an already setup tinycore system, so that users have no additional work to do... No need to remaster any iso - just provide the additional tcz (or special mydata.tcz) for onboot loading along with the /opt/.filetool.lst and /opt/onboot.lst (or whatever they are called), and the to-be-stored-and-loaded-onbooting tce/optional tcz apps themselves.

Not really new idea - done many times before - but maybe a nice community created puppylike tinycore would indeed benefit from being discussed and created on this forum since this is Puppy-Land afterall and you can certainly produce a smaller PuppyLike system via tinycore than standard Puppy. Usefulness again might depend on the repositories (but I believe tinycore is pretty good for creating tcz's out of Debian repository stuff). Big decision will be in window manager used (most Puppy people won't want the default fltk/flwm - some will want JWM and some openbox no doubt - which are available but setting them up (and the rest of the system) to work as well as in standard Pups is the big job. Best that wanderer just publish what he creates and get ideas and addons to start it all off.

Should it be on tinycore forum instead? Probably not - since the main point is to create a PuppyLike tinycore and that needs Puppy forum expertise as the main priority really. Won't be an official woof-type Pup of course, since not using Puppy boot scripts but tinycore ones (and system design) instead.

wiak

EDIT: No doubt you could remaster the iso once you are happy with your system. Seems to be plenty of info on the tinycore wiki such as:

http://wiki.tinycorelinux.net/?do=search&id=remaster&button=

EDIT2: One of the posters here suggested size doesn't matter anymore. However, the smaller the resulting OS the more of it you can load into available RAM for fast performance. Uncompressing tcz files or compressing with something like lz4 for less intensive CPU uncompressing is also a method for increasing performance (even if tcz is not loaded into RAM but mounted instead): gives fast decompression at the expense of file storage size.
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 1112

PostPosted: Fri 16 Sep 2016, 03:47    Post subject:  

wiak

thank you

wanderer
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 1112

PostPosted: Fri 16 Sep 2016, 10:24    Post subject:  

I have posted this at the top of the thread to clarify what is going on here

This thread is a proposal to start a project that serves the puppy community in 2 ways

1. have a minimalist modular system to use as a base for a new version of puppy

2. have a puppy community development project that everyone who wants to can participate in

we will be using the tinycore (and eventually the dcore) isos
we will keep our system fully compatible with them
because they have long term support

you can participate in this project at least 2 ways

1. read the thread and post your comments

2. go to the tinycore site and download the tinycore iso
set it up and play with it so you become familiar with the system
and then figure out how we should modify them to serve our needs
you might read the documentation

I am working on this at this time
and will post my progress on this thread

wanderer

Last edited by wanderer on Sat 17 Sep 2016, 13:49; edited 1 time in total
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fredx181


Joined: 11 Dec 2013
Posts: 4283
Location: holland

PostPosted: Fri 16 Sep 2016, 15:10    Post subject:  

Hi wanderer,

I've tried a few times Tinycore in the past but gave up early because I couldn't figure out how to to save changes.
Just now I tried again. I installed pcmanfm choosing OnBoot and it showed on wbar, good.
But after rebooting (chosing Backup) pcmanfm is gone.
I think tinycore is not very intuitive but maybe I'm dumb, (no, just kidding Smile I know I'm not but it's just very new to me)
Please don't call yourself 'dumb', as I'm sure you are not either, maybe that you can give us a 'preview' of your idea and tell us were you get stuck.
From what I understand you'd like to 'puppyfy' tinycore, which means adding puppy applications? or also change the save/backup setup?, sorry, still not clear to me
.
I agree with other posters in this thread when they say something like "Better come up with something you already achieved".
Then someone could say maybe "Hey, I can help you with that" or jump in with some other ideas.

Then it would be much more constructive and more chance of success.

My grub4dos menu.lst entry (on USB pendrive)
Code:
title Tinycore
 root (hd0,0)
 kernel /boot/vmlinuz loglevel=3 cde
 initrd /boot/core.gz


Used Tinycore-current iso 16Mb

Fred

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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 1112

PostPosted: Fri 16 Sep 2016, 17:04    Post subject:  

hi fred

yes there is a little learning curve
because it is different from the puppys we are used to

the basic way to save changes

boot the iso
when you see the screen with the options come up
and it waits 60 seconds
press tab
then type in home=sda1 tce=sda1 (if sda1 is the drive)
i think it has to be a linux drive but im not sure ill check it
this will make 2 folders on the drive
one called home the other called tce
and all your changes will be saved in these folders
then when you download an app it will be saved in the tce folder
and when you save a file or a setting it will be saved in the home folder

when you boot up again
and reach the options screen with the 60 second wait
press tab
and type in home=sda1 tce=sda1
and the saved settings and apps will be available to you

ask if you have any further questions
ive been playing with it for a while and so ive kind of gotten used to it

thanks for your interest

wanderer
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fredx181


Joined: 11 Dec 2013
Posts: 4283
Location: holland

PostPosted: Fri 16 Sep 2016, 17:34    Post subject:  

Thanks wanderer. I'll try.

Can you also reply on what I previously wrote?:

Fredx181 wrote:
From what I understand you'd like to 'puppyfy' tinycore, which means adding puppy applications? or also change the save/backup setup?, sorry, still not clear to me
.
I agree with other posters in this thread when they say something like "Better come up with something you already achieved".
Then someone could say maybe "Hey, I can help you with that" or jump in with some other ideas.

Then it would be much more constructive and more chance of success.


For info: tried also CorePlus-current.iso 106MB

For trying out different window-managers e.g. jwm, openbox, fluxbox, icewm
Grub4dos menu.lst entries:

Code:
title Tinycore jwm
 root (hd0,0)
 kernel /boot/vmlinuz loglevel=3 cde showapps desktop=jwm
 initrd /boot/core.gz

title Tinycore openbox
 root (hd0,0)
 kernel /boot/vmlinuz loglevel=3 cde showapps desktop=openbox
 initrd /boot/core.gz

title Tinycore fluxbox
 root (hd0,0)
 kernel /boot/vmlinuz loglevel=3 cde showapps desktop=fluxbox
 initrd /boot/core.gz

title Tinycore icewm
 root (hd0,0)
 kernel /boot/vmlinuz loglevel=3 cde showapps desktop=icewm
 initrd /boot/core.gz

title Tinycore plus
 root (hd0,0)
 kernel /boot/vmlinuz loglevel=3 cde showapps desktop=flwm_topside
 initrd /boot/core.gz


Fred

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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 1112

PostPosted: Fri 16 Sep 2016, 21:20    Post subject:  

...
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 1112

PostPosted: Sat 17 Sep 2016, 01:17    Post subject:  

fred

sorry it took so long to answer

i think that for a number of reasons initially
it is best to concentrate on modifying just the tinycore iso
we want to keep it compatible with the standard tinycore
so we have the ongoing development from the tinycore people

because of this i see us adding things incrementally to the iso
that make it more puppy like

having it boot to jwm and rox etc instead of flwm
adding wallpapers
making some tcz with puppy apps

then we can add some more boot codes in tc-config
to add options when it boots
and this is where more significant functional changes can be made

because tinycore is such a good system
and we want to stay compatible
we will not want to change the basics
but it could still look and feel very "puppy like"

i will make some isos to test some stuff
and at least post instructions on how to make them

i will also write write up a set of instructions
on how to set things up and how to do basic things
since a lot of this is unfortunately not obvious

however anyone who wants to learn the system
will need to play with the standard tinycore iso first

the end point is to have a minimalist system anyone can modify
and because this is such a small and relatively simple system
that goal can be achieved

if this does answer your question please ask again

wanderer

Last edited by wanderer on Sat 17 Sep 2016, 13:52; edited 1 time in total
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rufwoof


Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Posts: 3719

PostPosted: Sat 17 Sep 2016, 04:07    Post subject:  

Debian do a small net core system, basically boots to a command line and net connected ... that you can then use to pull in any of the programs you want from its large, stable programs repository. Tinycore is small in size, but lost in typical current day hardware, even if that hardware is a decade+ old.

Use Debian's LiveCD version and you can set that up with persistence (saving changes) relatively easy thanks to one of Fred's scripts (modified version of snapmergepuppy/save2flash) and run frugally (almost entire filesystem in a single sfs).
Quote:
you may now want to skip to the end of the thread because a lot of it is just me going on and on trying to convince everyone of the viability of this project

Sorry Wanderer, I just can't see the viability of adding another branch off TinyCore http://futurist.se/gldt/wp-content/uploads/12.10/gldt1210.png Instead I see it as a lot of time/effort down a dead-end road.

Whenever I look at that chart/tree, I always wonder how much better Linux might have been if all that effort had instead been redirected towards pinning down applications and application stability rather than on what largely equates to a GUI program launcher, presented 1001 different ways.
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 1112

PostPosted: Sat 17 Sep 2016, 06:30    Post subject:  

rufwoof

yeah you are right
the blessing and curse of linux is its diversity

but one size really doesn't fit all
if that was true i would use windows
this little distro works for me
so i'm going to play with it
maybe it will appeal to someone else
and that is the purpose of this thread
to present that option

i'm only amazed that i can use it as my main distro
it does everything i need it to do

what you guys did with debian live is great
but it was too big/complex for me
everyone should keep working on what works for them
how else can they find fulfillment

the greater linux community will not suffer much
from the loss of my meager contribution

best wishes

wanderer
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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 3107

PostPosted: Sat 17 Sep 2016, 07:42    Post subject:  

wanderer wrote:

the end point is to have a minimal system anyone can modify
and because this is such a small and relatively simple system
that goal can be achieved

I'd like to put some numbers to it to see what "minimal" system means.

Core 10MB (you can actually can not do much with it assuming it boots your machine)
Firmware, wifi support and some stripped window managers (core-plus iso) +100MB
PCmanFM file manager +15MB
Firefox +65 MB
Abiword +10 MB
geany +1MB
VLC (with the needed audio and video infrastructure) + 20MB
New ISO size 225MB!
And that’s all the applications installed and using the VESA video driver.
NO printing, file sharing, image viewer, cd burning, hardware-specific video drivers, spreadsheet or anything else.

That's from some older notes I found so current numbers are probably higher.

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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 1876
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Sat 17 Sep 2016, 08:26    Post subject:  

mavrothal wrote:

I'd like to put some numbers to it to see what "minimal" system means.

New ISO size 225MB!


You seem to have missed the earlier post for an exemplar of what is already out there (I have downloaded and checked: the 109 MB iso size includes Xorg, firefox ver 41 and ffmpeg). 225MB versus 109MB... did I miss something? I haven't tried it yet, but have used tinycore as well as Puppy (and Slitaz) for over eight years now. Yes, a few things not in canbike, such as Abiword, but assuming you want such apps they would not swell the iso to 225MB!:

quirkian2new wrote:
i came across mini canbike :
http://www.canbike.org/off-topic/linux/mini-can-bike-1-0-1.html
...
I hope this mini canbike (iso file 109mb with firefox41.tcz 51mb) were a puppyfied one that can be boot with only 2 files


And of course, Slitaz is pretty powerful in its 50MB iso (I know, I've used it plenty). Slitaz doesn't include a few of the apps in Puppy, but not off by much.

So I really think wanderer is correct that a small puppyfied tinycore can be much smaller than a standard Puppy.

Doesn't make it better than a Puppy or any other OS of course - it's just an alternative. I think wanderer is looking for something more easily built to a user's needs rather than having to learn woof (which probably requires more expert skills), and tiny core is probably good for that being so modular. Of course you could build a huge tiny core system, but very easy to take out tcz's or add them in as user wants.

wiak
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 1112

PostPosted: Sat 17 Sep 2016, 09:48    Post subject:  

yes
to me
its not about the total size of the full system
because if you add 1000 applications its probably going to get bigger
its about the size and simplicity of the core
easy to understand and modify
and the modularity of the extensions
each piece independent and self contained
each easy to understand and modify on its own
and then these can be put together in an infinite number of ways
to get exactly what you want each time

anyway puppy tinycore and debian-dog are all great
this just gives the puppy community another option
hopefully a simple and manageable enough one
that anyone can use and modify it

but lets take it slow and easy
thankfully this is both useful ... and fun

wanderer
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