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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Projects
corepup
Moderators: Flash, JohnMurga
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 500

PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep 2016, 13:35    Post subject:  corepup
Subject description: a minimalist modular system and community project
 

i have changed the title of this thread
so that it will be easier to find
for those looking for these topics
i hope this doesn't annoy anyone


before we begin I would like to thank Mr Murga who's generosity
over a great many years has provided the forum without which
this project and indeed most of puppy itself would not exist


This thread is a proposal to start a project that serves the puppy community in 2 ways

1. have a minimalist modular system to use as a base for a new version of puppy

2. have a puppy community development project that everyone who wants to can participate in


you can participate in this project at least 2 ways

1. read the thread
and post your comments/ideas/suggestions/flames

2. go to the tinycore site and download the
coreplus 6.4.1 iso or the dcoreplus-jessie iso
and set them up and play with them
and post your comments/ideas/suggestions/flames

the reason there are 2 isos is because
each has different strengths and functions
dcore can access debian repositories and makes bundled apps
tinycore has a repository of its own with apps that load each dependency individually
the 2 isos can be merged into one iso to have the functions of both
which is one of the things i am working on now

I have chosen these 2 particular isos as the entry point of this project
because they both use the same kernel and so can be merged
and i have set both up successfully and am using them now
however there are much newer isos that you may want to try instead

once you become familiar with these isos or the newer ones
the entire system becomes clear

there are some tricks to the setup
and i will post the whole process as soon as i get the time
but if you have any problems just post a question
and i will try to answer it
or you can ask on the tinycore forum

tinycore is a mature and maintained system
so we have something that works and has support out of the box
this support is essential for non geniuses like me
and as it stands this system serves all my needs
and is now the only distro i use


a few of the places that modifications (puppification) can be done are

1. modifying the boot process (for example codes and flash)
2. moving the contents of the cde folder to the tce folder or vice versa
so for example the usb (or cd) can be unmounted after boot
3. modifying the core (with the focus on tc-config and the boot chain)
for example adding boot codes and applications
4. and making a custom tcz or sce with whatever (puppy) stuff you want

there are of course an infinite number
of other modifications that can be done
but these are some of the basics

if you try it
i think you will find this is a great system
very well designed
well worth the effort

please note
this is a work in progress
so after reading this post
i suggest jumping to the end of the thread to see what the latest plan is
many twists and turns have been made
and a lot of the discussion between the first and last post
is no longer relevant

I will continue to update this thread
as i get the time

best regards

wanderer

...

Last edited by wanderer on Thu 16 Mar 2017, 10:06; edited 55 times in total
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jlst

Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 571

PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep 2016, 13:51    Post subject:  

That is a good idea actually.

The problem with woofce and basically all puppy-related projects.. is that there are too many projects and too few users to test. The gap between developers and users is huge, and the advanced users..., almost all of them create and mantain their derivatives... and are busy minding their own bussiness

I proposed tuxx something smaller (140mb,gzip compressed) based on woofce, but i was unable to fulfill my part as i'm very busy coding for woofce, fixing bugs, etc. The first step was to compile a retro kernel, starting from k3.2.82... overall woofce offers you an automated build (kernel-kit), but you have to properly configure the kernel first... and then choose appropiate set of firmwares.. this in itself is a huge a work.

Tiny core is one and only, only one iso.. for everyone to try. slitaz is another micro distro, provides weekly alphas, so people should understand that the puppy diversity is what will cause its demise, but fortunately development is happening hehehe, but hardly everyone will get to see it unless they try the latest alphas from woofce projects.
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 500

PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep 2016, 13:56    Post subject:  

thanks jlst

i didnt expect one of the geniuses to reply

wanderer
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dancytron

Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Posts: 739

PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep 2016, 14:08    Post subject:  

For years, I've thought a more logical way to structure Puppy would be to have the main *.sfs package contain only the "core". That meaning everything Puppy contains now, except the browser, gnumeric, abiword, paint, inkscape, the chat app, vlc or gmplayer etc.

Then have an "adrv" sfs file that contained all the things that were left out of the main ISO that loaded on top.

That would provide a Puppy that functions exactly like the one we have now and also a "thin" Puppy that people could easily add to either by installing software and remastering or by creating alternate adrv.sfs files.

That would give people of lower skill level (like me) a very powerful ability to create very thin custom distributions without dealing with woof or even remastering. People who want Chrome wouldn't need to have Firefox too. Serious office type users who want libre office wouldn't need to also have abiword, etc hanging around.

It seems like this is a very simple change and the ability already exists, all it would take would be for the lead official distributions to adopt this structure as standard.
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jlst

Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 571

PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep 2016, 14:22    Post subject:  

yes dancytron, that has already been discussed by the woofce team.. this is what i think:

puppy.sfs - core
zdrv.sfs - kernel modules
fdrv.sfs - firmware
adrv.sfs - default bulk (gui apps)
ydrv.sfs - something else

this way you can replace any *drv with something bigger or smaller if you wish.

all these sfs's can also be specified via boot params... the new init is powerful.

all these sfs's are properly supported by woofce, but changing the structure requires cooperation from everyone involved and major changes here and there..
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backi

Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 1027
Location: GERMANY

PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep 2016, 14:35    Post subject:  

Hi you all !

Sounds incredibly good !
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 500

PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep 2016, 14:42    Post subject:  

yes but

still the problem with union filesystem

and the problem with the build system
too big complex and hidden from view

i think puppy stuff should be merged into tinycore
not puppy restructured to look like tinycore

the puppy init file is really the tc-config file in tinycore
so puppy innovations can be added there

wanderer
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jlst

Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 571

PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep 2016, 14:47    Post subject:  

i agree that t's better to create a puppy-like tiny core... the way puppy works is complex but allows unlimited extensions... it's just that there is not enough people working to make the big changes happen

and because it has been tailored to use the packages from the big distros now it also properly supports the full util-linux and coreutils... making use of busybox only with the most simple apps... so basically it can also be used to bootstrap and install arch linux for example. Puppy is in the major leagues.
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dancytron

Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Posts: 739

PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep 2016, 14:54    Post subject:  

To me, the union file system (if I understand that correctly to mean the sfs files and layering etc) is what makes Puppy into Puppy.

Creating a minimal distro that is Puppy like that is structured like Tiny Core wouldn't be Puppy. It would be "Tiny Dog" like Debian Dog is a Puppy like Debian Distribution. Maybe a great idea, like Debian Dog is a great idea, but not really Puppy anymore.
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Sailor Enceladus

Joined: 22 Feb 2016
Posts: 1080

PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep 2016, 14:59    Post subject:  

All I understood by wanderer's proposal was "bla bla tinycore this tinycore that", but I like where dancytron went with the adrv.
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 500

PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep 2016, 15:12    Post subject:  

the power and beauty of puppy and for that matter tinycore
is in its creators users functions and applications
whether or not it is connected
by a union file system with sfs files
or a symlinked system with tcz extensions
is irrelevant
puppy has changed many times
and assumed many forms
puppy 1 2 3 4 underdog huge-intrd micropup pupngo etc
in fact the union file system itself has varied between different models
the union file system doesn't define puppy

its the people and the ideas
open your mind man

wanderer
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jlst

Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 571

PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep 2016, 15:13    Post subject:  

tiny core uses modern kernels and it's tiny, so if there is debian dog, there should be tiny dog indeed.

puppy still supports underdog, and there's a gui (to create underdog.lnx) and boot param to set it..

as for woofce it will take time before small things come back... in the end it will probably never happen................. but for the big distros puppy uses as its pkg base .. only slackware and ubuntu make sense nowadays (debian=ubuntu=trisquel=devuan=mint=etc), but devuan is interesting as it follows the puppy philosophy....
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greengeek


Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 4576
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep 2016, 16:19    Post subject:  

wanderer wrote:
still the problem with union filesystem
The benefit of the union system is the ease with which you can graft new functionality onto existing functionality - and then "disconnect" it and go back to original.

One of the things that made Puppy work for me was the fact that the wizards made it possible for me (without any real Linux understanding) to change the setup of my system - and then save those changes in a savefile (which could then be removed if I wanted to get back to original).

Every time I have tried Tinycore i got stuck - and didn't understand how to go any further. Only Puppy and it's inbuilt wizards got me past that point.

So if there was a change to Puppy's structure i would want to see some way that the "core" that boots to desktop could be EASILY extended to expand functionality or cosmetic appearance. And then those extensions be EASILY deleted/removed if it was unsuitable or I wanted to replace it with something different.

The core functionality I need in any operating system is in this order:
1) Boot to desktop reliably, quickly and without fuss (on every machine! and from any boot device!)
2) Help me get on the network/internet
3) Help me install the operating system to some media
4) Help me add new programs
5) Help me set up printing.
6) ...
.
99) Help me make it look good.
(I really don't care too much about how it looks...)

All of these functions i want done with the least processing power and storage space possible (Regardless of the fact that memory is now cheap and easily available).

I don't know how the symlink method could be tidier or easier or more reliable than the union system but I'm open to finding out.

One other thing I REALLY REALLY want is a system that works forever - without having to constantly consider upgrading libraries etc to keep up with the big distros unless i want to.

I'm not suggesting backporting everything to GTK1 or similar - but I really do wish it was possible to do that. I don't like change.

Surely there is some way to build Linux with standard size bricks - instead of constantly having to look for bigger and bigger bricks of different incompatible shapes and sizes??

EDIT : - maybe what I really want is a super lean puppy that boots and installs reliably - but also contains a QEMU or VM within which I could run a fat puppy (or bigger distro) if I need to run a newer program.
Tiny Puppy for 99% of my work + VM Overdog for the 1% fancy stuff that needs the newer libs or toolchains. So the fancy modern parts of puppy would reside in a separate VM sfs or symlinked VM blob.(Just spitballin' here...)
.
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Flash
Official Dog Handler


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 12507
Location: Arizona USA

PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep 2016, 16:36    Post subject:  

Would multisession Puppy work without the union fs?
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 500

PostPosted: Tue 13 Sep 2016, 16:39    Post subject:  

hi greengeek

the systems are really very (conceptually) similar

puppys wizard wizard is
tinycore apps function

everything you are asking is very doable
in fact in my system its already done
you just have to learn to use a different named tool

i also want to keep a system forever
and i want it to be kept up to date

that is why I started this thread
so that everyone can work together
to take the best from both systems
and make it into something we all want
and can use long term

wanderer
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