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Smallest Puppy with or that can run WINE 1.81 or newer
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mouldy


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 664

PostPosted: Mon 18 Apr 2016, 14:42    Post subject:  Smallest Puppy with or that can run WINE 1.81 or newer  

My computer is 2 core 3.4ghz processor and 2gb ram. Currently running 32bit Slacko 5.3.3. I know some years ago tried running some early 64bit Puppy derivative off cd and it ran fine, even seemed bit faster, but not enough to upgrade. Slacko is super stable.

Recently tried to run tax software on my XP partition (only thing I use it for) and it opened, then crashed and wouldnt restart. Seems they upgraded specs to require VISTA as the minimum. I cant find whats missing or whatever. NOT wanting to buy a newer windows system just for tax software! Sure its some dumb thing preventing it from working.

Found some had gotten it to run on WINE 1.81. Seemingly doesnt work on older versions of WINE. But for life of me I cant find minimum requirements for this version WINE. Anymore seems like everything is a Rip Van Winkle moment and I have been asleep for 20 years. Just havent kept up with all the changes.

So can somebody please enlighten me. Computer works fine and I dont upgrade computer or operating system unless absolutely forced to do so. Will some version of WINE 1.81 or newer run on Slacko 5.3.3? If not what is smallest Puppy or Puppy derivative that will run as live cd on my computer and be able to handle WINE 1.81. Thanks for any help. Be nice if it was an iso that already had 1.81 or newer WINE included.
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Atle

Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 604
Location: Oslo, Norway

PostPosted: Mon 18 Apr 2016, 15:08    Post subject:  

Seems like you can try latest fatdog64 710 Alpha.

http://ftp.nluug.nl/ibiblio/distributions/fatdog/iso/alpha/710/
That runs wine-1.9.6

Maybe you can even install it as XP now is obsolete?


Remember its a early version, but I will my self run it as my primary OS.


Atle
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Sailor Enceladus

Joined: 22 Feb 2016
Posts: 1566

PostPosted: Mon 18 Apr 2016, 15:21    Post subject:  

The Wine pets by version2013 should run on anything puppy431 or newer
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=888808#888808
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mouldy


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 664

PostPosted: Mon 18 Apr 2016, 20:38    Post subject:  

Atle wrote:
Seems like you can try latest fatdog64 710 Alpha.

http://ftp.nluug.nl/ibiblio/distributions/fatdog/iso/alpha/710/
That runs wine-1.9.6

Maybe you can even install it as XP now is obsolete?


Remember its a early version, but I will my self run it as my primary OS.


Atle


Did download it, but first it includes darn little software, DOESNT INCLUDE WINE of any kind. Second its crashy as heck on my antique computer and burns through my available memory very quick. In other words its exactly what I didnt want. I guess I wasnt clear. I wanted a small version of Puppy that includes a late version of WINE and doesnt require late model computer.
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mouldy


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 664

PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr 2016, 14:03    Post subject:  

Ok, I got WINE 1.9.7 installed on an instance of Slacko 5.7, Already had burned that cd but never got around to upgrading. Wanted a clean instance of Puppy anyway in case something during install screwed it up to where it wouldnt boot. Dont need to lose everything on existing Puppy save file. I was surprised, the WINE dotpets worked well, though WINE then wanted to download some more when I ran it.

Anyway wine is running and it installed my TaxAct 2015. Doesnt crash! But I also cant navigate, the buttons are unresponsive. And tax form graphics bit jumbled. The jumbledness maybe from resolution bit off?? The buttons are like going to website with NOSCRIPT and its blocking a particular script needed for navigation. So you experiment temporarily allowing one script at time until you find the one. Though no idea how that would apply to this program.

I tried changing the windows operating system its supposed to mimic but no difference whether XP or win10. Guessing I could set it to win95 and wouldnt really matter.

I am remembering joys of trying to use WINE in the past. It was great for a few small programs, but everything else was long uphill battle to get working. However there are people using this software successfully under WINE, they just dont give specifics how they did it.... or if it just worked for them out of the box. The older versions TaxAct always struck me as pretty basic, but new company owns it now and guess they wanted more eye candy to compete with the more flashy competitors.
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mouldy


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 664

PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr 2016, 14:31    Post subject:  

Ok, pays to read everything. Found a very helpful post by some Puppy user using TaxAct 2012 under WINE. Said install IE6 in order for navigation buttons to work, that IE7 and IE8 give script errors. And to help with the jumbled tax forms, you need the M$ fonts from win98. Said they turn out ok in the printed pdf version, just the on screen version that is jumbled. Well never would guessed. Why in world would anybody tie their software to a specific browser?? I mean unless its meant as a browser extension. Obviously TaxAct isnt a browser extension, though guess it just well be since I have to download and install a 70mb piece of IE garbage to make it work.
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3817
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr 2016, 15:45    Post subject: How to do taxes running Linux
Subject description: Wine + Tax Software -- barking up the wrong tree
 

Hi mouldy,

Like you, about the only reason I had to keep XP was to run Income Tax Software. I did an extensive search for a Linux alternative before the 2013 Tax Returns were do. The conclusion I reached then was that commercial tax software would not run under Wine. The following ratings currently suggests that situation hasn't changed. https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=623. https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=6532

Edit: I was using TurboTax. TaxAct received a Gold Rating in 2014, https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=31734 but declined in usefulness in 2015. https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=1265

As you've noticed, tax software vendors seem to be abandoning support for XP. For us Linux users, there are a couple of alternatives. One is to run virtualization software, setting up Windows 7 as the client. You may not even have to purchase Windows 7 for that purpose. https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/vms/linux/. I've lost track of it, but somewhere on the Additional Software SubForum's Virtualization Section is a tread discussing the use of the application microsoft offers beyond it's specific purpose -- testing Browsers.

Another alternative is Open Tax Solver: http://opentaxsolver.sourceforge.net/. As far as I know, it has as good a reputation for accuracy as the commercial products. Perhaps better. Wasn't there some report recently about the IRS threatening to sue Turbotax?

As noted on the last cited webpage, Open Tax Solver doesn't have applications for every STATE.

But when push-came-to-shove, I chose a third alternative.

Before I retired, I used to complete tax returns manually. A wily accountant, who had worked for the IRS, had advised that the best method to avoid being audited was to file paper returns close to the deadline. Not that I needed that advice -- I wasn't about to attempt to evade taxes, an indirect penalty of which could have been loss of my license to practice. But who needs the aggravation of having to take the time to explain and justify every line item?

If you've switched from doing taxes manually to using tax software you may appreciate that the major benefit achieved is not having to do ALL calculations by hand. Under either method, to complete what would be generated as Schedule C you still have to get your figures together. And the same is true, 'though perhaps less taxing Smile , regarding every other form of income and deduction

The Tax Codes, and the forms and instructions used to implement them, have not significantly changed since the time when computers were a rarity. No "higher" math is necessary. You only have to know how to add, subtract, multiply and divide. And, finally, look at a Tax Table. Except for the last, using a spreadsheet can eliminate a great deal of the drudgery, and all of the mathematical errors.

If you've never used a spreadsheet, take my word for it: it will take less than 10 minutes of reading to figure out how to get whichever spreadsheet you choose to add, subtract, multiply and divide data entered into specific cells, sum columns (add an entire column of figures); and transfer data entered or the results generated in one cell into another cell.

So one year I setup a spreadsheet to handle all the math problems. The following year I discovered having done so created a distinct advantage. Neither the types of my income streams nor my available deductions significantly differed from one year to the next: only the specific amount applicable to each. Each year, every taxing authority I had to deal with issued a report identifying which sections of their respective tax codes had changed. I don't recall there every being more than 5 changes. It was a simple matter to make a copy my prior year's spreadsheet and then edit it to reflect those changes. Then fill in the new year's financial data. [A spreadsheet also presents an easy place -- the otherwise unused columns to the right-- to complete "Worksheets" -- whose results alone are included on the Tax Returns].

This had one draw-back compared to my later use of tax software. Using a spreadsheet to generate the figures which would appear on each line of the tax return did not produce a printed tax return. I would later have to fill in the actual tax returns by hand,

This year I ran into a problem using Tax Software. It would no longer run under XP. So, I borrowed my wife's computer which runs Windows 7, And ran into a second, unexpected problem.

My wife and I are both retired. Our income consists solely of Social Security and various pension and "IRA-like" distributions. Without completing the tax forms, I know that our tax burden in any year will be within a couple hundred dollars of our tax burden the previous year. The commercial tax software worked Ok for the Federal Return. But its results using the State Module were bizarre.

Without getting into details, with respect to one type of income (including or like moneys received from "IRAs") the amount subject to taxation in New Jersey depends on the extent to which that amount does NOT represent moneys contributed into the fund by the taxpayer AND already taxed by New Jersey at the time of contribution.

Except for Roth IRAs, this doesn't matter in completing the Federal Returns. But the relevant questions are asked on the commercial Federal Tax software with the resulting answers and figures being later transferred to the State Tax Software. The user starts by placing checkmarks in response to several questions relating to this type of income. Depending on which checkmarks are entered, different questions are then asked requiring specific dollar amounts to be copied from relevant documents.

In our case, responding to the initial questions with checkmarks in some boxes generated a tax refund of the our periodic estimated tax payments close to $1,000. Entering a different set of check marks resulted in a tax obligation of several hundred dollars. As the software does its computing in the background, I had no way of knowing what mistake I was making in interpreting what the software was aking.

I have over 30 years experience in "interpreting" -- contracts, federal and my state Constitutions, federal and state statutes, federal and state regulations, even the meaning of Tax Codes. The problem I faced was one of interpretation:

New Jersey publishes a tax code, with provision specifically dealing with such income. In order for Tax Software to generate the correct result, the software programmer responsible for the mathematical routines has to correctly interpret those provisions. Then the programmer responsible for providing the Graphical User Interface --the questions asked by the software-- has to correctly interpret the algorithms provided by those mathematical routines. Then you, the user, must correctly interpret what the questions are asking.

My first step in trying to figure out what went wrong was to download New Jersey's Tax Instruction pdf. The pdf contained a section on the question. It was less than half a page, including several examples.

Nothing someone who passed 6th grade math couldn't figure out.

I spent the next several hours trying to get the software to generate what I already know was the correct figure. But as I said before, the actual computations are hidden from the user. I'm pretty certain the mathematical routines were not flawed. If I could do them, surely someone writing computer programs could. But how was the programmer responsible for the GUI interpreting those routines? Each possible interpretation of the GUI I tried required that I change my answer and re-run the software from that point --on the Federal Software-- and await the "black box" to generate its answer on the State Software. Finally, I gave up.

Within an hour I created a spreadsheet which did all the calculations and generated a result I knew accurately computed the figures necessary to complete New Jersey's entire Tax Return.

While searching for New Jersey's Tax Return Instructions I stumbled upon two facts. Like filing Federal Returns, you can simply use your browser to login and complete your Tax Returns online.

[Log in with your browser: The Federal Government doesn't care if that browser is running under Windows, Linux or the Mac. Neither does New Jersey. Do you know if your State discriminates against Linux?].

And the second fact I discovered was that while New Jersey would have preferred me to complete my return "online", it also offered me the option of downloading a "fillable PDF" I could use to "fill in the blanks", and then print and file by "snail-mail."

Next year, I won't bother with any tax preparation software. The IRS also enables you to download fillable PDFs. https://www.irs.gov/uac/Free-File:-Do-Your-Federal-Taxes-for-Free. I'll take the time to work up a spreadsheet while reading its Tax Return Instruction PDF. [Unlike Tax Software which must deal with every possible income tax relevant circumstance, I can ignore most of the provisions. My spreadsheet only has to handle the few types of income sources and deductions which pertain to me].

New Jersey requires a copy of your Federal Return be attached to its State Return. And, with only a couple exceptions, its provisions regarding Income and Deductions are identical to those of the Federal Government. It's a simple matter to configure a spreadsheet to copy information from one cell into another.

My computer --running Linux-- enables me to have open at the same time a spreadsheet and two "fillable pdf" forms; and to copy information from a cell in the first into fillable boxes in the second and third.

The following year and thereafter:
(1) Read the "Tax Changes" sections of Tax Instruction pdfs and edit the tax spreadsheet accordingly;
(2) Fill in the "identification" and status sections on two fillable pdfs.
(3) Plug figures into the spreadsheet.
(4) Copy "results" from cells in the spreadsheet to Federal and State Fillable PDFs.
(5) Look up resulting "taxable income" on Tax Tables.
(6) Fill in result on Tax-Due or Refund-Due Lines.
(7) Print Returns.

Estimated time for above each year: Less than 2 hours = less than the time it takes to fill out questionnaires presented by Tax Software.

mikesLr

P.S. How I set up a Tax Template:

A spreadsheet consists of cells arranged in columns and rows. I configure Column A, the furthest to the left, to be formatted as Text. Its rows will contain --or adequately summarize so that I can re-use it next year-- a statement corresponding to the text found on the Tax Return, including the Line Item number. For example (relating to the Federal Return) "Line 7 Wages, Salaries, Tips".
The Rows in Column B are configured to display numbers. Their input will consist of information contained in documents such as W-2s, or the result of calculations from Worksheets.
The Rows of Column C are also configured to display numbers: Some provided by the taxing authority, such as the Standard Deduction or Income Exclusion; others the result of computations performed on Worksheets. Only the information appearing in Columns B and C will be copied to Tax Return Pdfs.
Column D is narrow and remains empty. Its purpose is just to make the sheet as a whole easy to use by separating Worksheets from the figures which will be copied to Fillable PDFs.
Column E consists of Rows of text, the first Row consisting of the title of a Worksheet; subsequent rows text pertaining to the figures to be entered into Columns F and G.
Columns further to the Right can be used for additional Worksheets. If I remember correctly, spreadsheets are designed to perform calculations to the left and then down. So, for example, if Column B Row 12 is to be derived from the computation of a Worksheet, you'll want the computation to be made in a cell on Row 11.

That's the basics. You can fancy up a spreadsheet to make it easier to read: such as bolding the text used in the name of Worksheets, or having negative numbers appear in red.

Most of your time will be spent the first year typing in the text in Columns A and E. In subsequent years, you may have to spend some time adding Rows and revising formulas if there has been a significant change in a Tax Code.

Of course, if your source of income changes drastically --such as you've won The Lottery-- your prior years Tax Template may be of little value. But then, you'll probably want to discuss your situation with a good accountant. Laughing

Last edited by mikeslr on Tue 19 Apr 2016, 19:36; edited 4 times in total
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mouldy


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 664

PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr 2016, 17:54    Post subject:  

Ok, no luck yet. IE6 doesnt get along with WINE 1.9.7. Script errors galore. That Puppy user that got TaxAct2012 working used WINE 1.5.0, said it worked good up to WINE 1.5.19. Starting 1.5.20, there were problems. Yes they number them funny, would think if last number was two digit, they would do 1.5.00, 1.5.01, ... but no it it goes 1.5.0, 1.5.1... 1.5.9, 1.5.10, ... 1.5.19, 1.5.20....

The links are not working well on the older WINE pets. I finally snagged WINE 1.5.8 pet though it was painfully slow download. The earlier ones are gone. See if it works.

As to spreadsheets and writable pdf forms, suppose if I have to. But would also consider just buying a used $50 laptop with later version windows only used once a year for taxes. The software does save lot time and keeps track of carryover losses from previous years. Just automatically imports and uses it to update.

Still be cool to get the software running on Puppy, screw windows. Personally if I were running company making tax software, no I probably wouldnt make special linux version, not economically valuable enough market, but I would try to make sure it played well with WINE and not hardwire it to IE or other windows components. It would mean some extra sales. Probably not worth offing customer support for making it work with WINE, get complicated for some guy over telephone since so many variables, but at least it would work where the WINE folk could explain things to the clueless.
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3817
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr 2016, 20:10    Post subject: Found the post regarding Tax under Virtualization  

Hi mouldy,

I found the post regarding Microsoft's Virtualization applications. Mike Walsh wrote about it here: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=858618#858618. His post provides a link to this pclinux article, http://pclosmag.com/html/issues/201309/page15.html.

That article discusses in detail the use of the package in the context of filing tax returns.

I can't predict the future. But before running out to get an old computer which will run Windows 7, consider: The way things are going, isn't it likely that makers of tax software will decide to port them to smartphones?

mikesLr
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puppyluvr


Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 3506
Location: Chickasha Oklahoma

PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr 2016, 20:15    Post subject:  

Very Happy Hello,
Just run Windoze in VBox.

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mouldy


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 664

PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr 2016, 20:54    Post subject:  

Well thats different. No idea M$ was offering free evaluation copies, But works for me. Just have to download at library. I am hurting with all downloads trying to make WINE work. On metered mobile broadband. Slow and expensive, but dialup not usable anymore and no other options where I live.

Oh by way TaxAct itself finally threw up a warning (in WINE) during install saying it requires minimum of IE8 to function and I have IE0...LOL. No where in all the FAQ and all that did it say it required IE8, well now I know. Thats the last independent upgrade installable version of IE I think. I wonder what version I have in XP and what the last upgrade was?? Bet thats biggest reason its so flakey/crashy this year and worked fine last year, they upgraded IE required.

First install of WINE crashed and burned so created new Puppy save file and been reinstalling stuff. Somehow winetricks gui not running something about missing glade lib. Funny it worked fine in the other install. I havent figured out how to make it install IE8 via command line. It was trivial with the gui. Has to be installed by winetricks, ignores it if I try to install it manually.
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version2013

Joined: 08 Sep 2013
Posts: 492
Location: Florida, USA

PostPosted: Tue 19 Apr 2016, 23:21    Post subject:  

mouldy wrote:

First install of WINE crashed and burned so created new Puppy save file and been reinstalling stuff. Somehow winetricks gui not running something about missing glade lib. Funny it worked fine in the other install. I havent figured out how to make it install IE8 via command line. It was trivial with the gui. Has to be installed by winetricks, ignores it if I try to install it manually.

The missing glade lib possibly has to do with zenity [1] [2].
I do not have much experience with the winetricks GUI. I prefer to use the command line with winetricks.

With cabextract installed, the command "winetricks ie8" appears to function fine on my system. [3]


references:
[1] https://wiki.winehq.org/Winetricks
[2] http://placella.com/software/zenity/
[3] # winetricks --version
20160329 - sha1sum: 3373b943b372153431e01246811d0d3aa4765b42
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mouldy


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 664

PostPosted: Wed 20 Apr 2016, 08:50    Post subject:  

I had tried that, it installed something but it wasnt IE8. IE8 is huge and something that would take it some time to download with my connection. Whatever it did took couple minutes.

By way I looked, my XP has IE8 so its more than just IE8, something Vista and newer has that XP doesnt. IE8 by way was last IE available for XP. Couldnt prove it by me. Never liked IE, never used it unless some necessary website that wouldnt function any other way.
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mouldy


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 664

PostPosted: Wed 20 Apr 2016, 09:30    Post subject:  

I got patched version of zenity installed and it worked. But get this error: sha1sum mismatch! Rename /root/.cache/winetricks/ie8/winetest.cat and try again.

I also tried commandline again. This time I get:



Tried the --no-check-certificate ,but same thing...
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3817
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Wed 20 Apr 2016, 12:07    Post subject: Not to drive you nuts, but  

Hi mouldy,

Getting back to wine. I've never been able to install winetricks. If the dev didn't include it, I'd either have to run wine without it or use a wine which did. That's one of the reasons I now use portable-wine with all my Puppies. You can find two versions here which have wine-tricks built in: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=91748. Those two versions are wine-portable-1.6.2-2-p4.tar.gz and Wine_MyPortable_1.7.27.tar.gz. Unfortunately, Wine_MyPortable_1.7.27.tar.gz is the latest build of Wine the Japanese team has published.

Also for what its worth, every wine build I've used over the last 7 years has been "version independent". That is, regardless of whether or not they were packaged for a specific Puppy, as long as your Puppy has the graphics libraries sufficiently current, it can run that version of wine,

So, it's possible that you can run the Wine SFS packaged for FatDog710 which Atle mentioned. I don't know, however, its a 64-bit build --I don't think so, else jamesbond/kirk would have signalled that in its name-- or whether it includes winetricks. And I'm not willing to test since, as I said I use portable-wine on all my Puppies. I don't want to mess with a system which works for me.

If you're interested, simply download wine-1.9.7.sfs from here: http://ftp.nluug.nl/ibiblio/distributions/fatdog/sfs/710/

Regarding winetricks see this post: https://wiki.winehq.org/Winetricks. It leads me to believe that the reason both of us have had difficulty may be because we've attempted to give Winetricks the pretty interface it use to have. That requires Zanity, and zanity is broken. My portable-wine doesn't have it. To start winetricks I have to call it from a terminal [or create a menu entry which uses a bash command as executable]. See my post here regarding calling winetricks. http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=890064#890064

So, you might try the following: Download the winetricks script from the link provided on the WineHq's post*. "Getting Place it on you "path" --it's frequently found in /usr/sbin-- and make it executable. Restart X (maybe reboot) and then open a terminal. Type in a command such as /usr/sbin/winetricks. See (perhaps copy to a "my-notes" folder) the Options section of the WineHq post on how to present arguments to winetricks running without a GUI.

* Note the requirements discussed under "Getting winetricks": I don't thing WineHq has recently updated the text. Zenity isn't required. And IIRC, after starting winetricks I was able to install cabextract.

mikesLr
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