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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Cutting edge
Topic to discuss Woof CE development
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
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jlst

Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 571

PostPosted: Mon 14 Dec 2015, 00:14    Post subject:  Topic to discuss Woof CE development  

Raise your concerns.
Make sugestions
Post patches

https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE

Hopelly your sugestion and patches will make their way into the code

You can check and make pull requests here:
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pulls






-

Last edited by jlst on Fri 18 Dec 2015, 13:13; edited 4 times in total
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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 14412
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Mon 14 Dec 2015, 04:32    Post subject:  

Hi jlst.

Again? Another thread about woof developing ? Nah. Iguleder already
started a thread called "Woof-CE needs you... yeah you!". Or a title
like that. So let interested people post there.

Puppyists -- who are humans -- should see red lights flashing all over
whenever someone is talking of robotizing a Puppy, you know, man's
best friend and all that.

Also, in almost every Puppy I've used, woof-ified or not, there are/were
always bugs. One reason for starters: devs have a limited set of hard-
ware to test their new puplet on.

Notable recent exceptions: slacko-5.99, tahrpup-6 (32 bits),
slacko-6.3.0 (32 bits).

The git methodology is probably a bad one, because found bugs are not
squished across the board. Just this week, I chanced on missing libs for
certain well-known apps included in an overall good Puppy built through
the woof process. In clearer words: the developer is indeed quite good,
but the woof process missed some libs, and the dev had put his guard
down because he trusted the woof process a little too much. A simple
human factor. A "to err is human" kind of thing.

The dev didn't want to react now, he was busy, so I moved in and
provided some of the libs on his thread.

Is it ubuntu or debian who has a dev freeze while they're waiting for bug
reports? Maybe both, I can't remember right now.

During a week or two, nobody is developing the distro. They turn their
antennas towards users and testers, listening for bugs. After that period,
they apply the solutions across the board, and only after that do they
publish.

And they don't disbelieve the reports they receive either. Happened to me
more than once here.

Another argument against developing through a "woof" process is that
some very interesting work on Puppy has often been done by "indies".
People operating out of the imposed path. Creative minds do go off path,
they jump fences, they intentionally or not forget about rules, they bend
or break them: that's why and how they're creative.

While recruiting a "woof brigade" might sound like a laudable idea to
realize Barry's dream of giving everyone an easy capacity to build his/her
own Puppy, I don't think it's realistic and feasible if you are looking for
creative minds to work with. Is the git process not giving them enough
leeway? I don't know what the cause is, but the woof process is not as
successful as anticipated.

Another obstacle I see is that to embark on the woof process a user
needs to know his Puppy AND his Linux through and through. I'd say it's
for the top 1 % of Puppyists only. IIRC, Barry K. has 10 books on
computing to his name and I don't know how many years of experience;
some of the new Puppy devs are system administrators or professors in
computer science or trained technicians active in the field. How does the
average Joe and Joan User measure up to that? The average Joe and
Joan User just don't have the skills to take advantage of a process such
as the woof process.

Remember paint by numbers? The woof process is 10,000 % more
complicated than that.

My 2¢. BFN.

_________________
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
Je suis né pour aimer et non pas pour haïr. (Sophocle) /
I was born to love and not to hate. (Sophocles)

Last edited by musher0 on Wed 16 Dec 2015, 16:37; edited 3 times in total
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jlst

Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 571

PostPosted: Mon 14 Dec 2015, 07:36    Post subject:  

Yeah you're right
Last edited by jlst on Fri 18 Dec 2015, 13:07; edited 3 times in total
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jlst

Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 571

PostPosted: Mon 14 Dec 2015, 08:07    Post subject:  

=====================
VIDEO DRIVER
=====================

/tmp/xorg_video_driver: this file can store the current Xorg video driver

It can be created when needed, but must be removed after X is killed

In /usr/bin/xwin
Code:

[ -f /tmp/xorg_video_driver ] && rm -f /tmp/xorg_video_driver

#Shutdown menu calls wmreboot, wmpoweroff, wmexit or restartwm, which create this file...


This code can go into /usr/bin/videodriver or /usr/sbin or /usr/local/bin, it can even be a function of a larger file
Code:
#!/bin/sh
[ ! "$DISPLAY" ] && exit 1
if [ ! -f /tmp/xorg_video_driver ] ; then
   ## from /usr/sbin/report-video:
   # xorg.conf does not necessarily tell us what driver is loaded
   LOADED=$(grep 'Loading .*/xorg/modules/drivers/.*_drv.so' /var/log/Xorg.0.log | sed -e 's/.*\///' -e 's/_.*//')
   for ALOADED in $LOADED
   do
      bPTN="LoadModule: \"$ALOADED\""
      aPTN="UnloadModule: \"$ALOADED\""
      CNTload=`grep "$bPTN" /var/log/Xorg.0.log | wc -l`
      CNTunload=`grep "$aPTN" /var/log/Xorg.0.log | wc -l`
      [ $CNTload -eq 0 ] && continue #not loaded
      VIDEODRIVER="$ALOADED" #times loaded greater than unloaded
      break
   done
   [ ! "$VIDEODRIVER" ] && exit 1
   echo -n ${VIDEODRIVER} > /tmp/xorg_video_driver
   echo ${VIDEODRIVER}
else
   read -r VIDEODRIVER < /tmp/xorg_video_driver
   [ ! "$VIDEODRIVER" ] && exit 1
   echo ${VIDEODRIVER}
fi


Then any script wanting to know the current Xorg video driver can do this:
Code:
videodriver=$(videodriver)


-------
I can add this to woof-ce, anyone agrees?

Maybe I should modify 'report-video' directly and make it work with parameters?
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jlst

Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 571

PostPosted: Mon 14 Dec 2015, 08:55    Post subject:  

==================================
Fallback options in /usr/local/bin/default*
==================================

Code:
cp -a --remove-destination woof-ce-git/woof-code/rootfs-skeleton/* /


By doing this you will be updating your sytem to the latest woof-ce version. And therefore some customizations will be lost, some of them are the /usr/local/bin/defatultapps

So, by default these defaultapps should contain a reasonable list of predefined values. As everyone seems to change defaultapps one way or another, but this ensures working apps all the time.

I updated my Precise 5.7.1 this way and I have to rewrite my defaults, but now it's working with the latest woof ce.

Anyone agrees?
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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 14412
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Mon 14 Dec 2015, 14:51    Post subject:  

Ah. You mean "technical development".
_________________
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
Je suis né pour aimer et non pas pour haïr. (Sophocle) /
I was born to love and not to hate. (Sophocles)
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jlst

Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 571

PostPosted: Mon 14 Dec 2015, 16:54    Post subject:  

=================================
/usr/sbin/report-video
=================================

I have "redesigned" this script, the basic code and output are still very much (exactly) the same.

I also added command line options to use this script to get specific information.

It looks ok so far..

Code:


 Syntax:
   report-video [option]

[option] can be:
   driver  - get Xorg video driver (from /var/log/Xorg.0.log)
   modules - get xorg loaded modules (from /var/log/Xorg.0.log)
   chip    - get graphics chip description
   res     - get actual resolution
   depth   - get actual bit depth

   xorgconf <opt>  - query /etc/X11/xorg.conf
        videodepth - requested depth (bits or planes)
        videores   - requested resolution
        reqmods    - modules requested to be loaded
        disabledmods - modules requested to not be loaded
        reqdriver    - drivers requested to be loaded

 If no option is given then a full report is printed


diff:
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pull/675/files

Last edited by jlst on Sat 19 Dec 2015, 15:18; edited 3 times in total
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jlst

Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 571

PostPosted: Tue 15 Dec 2015, 17:29    Post subject:  

=================================
/usr/sbin/fixmenus: speed up
=================================

With these changes, fixmenus performs up to 4 times faster on slow cpus
After running fixmenus, my jwm and icewm menus look exactly the same, so I think this is safe...

Test

Processor: intel celeron 1.80ghz / FSB 400mhz / cache 128k

Puppy: slacko 6.3.0 gzip compressed, all startup apps removed

Code:
# time fixmenus
Generating /root/.jwmrc...

real   0m9.039s
user   0m2.843s
sys   0m3.487s


# time ./fixmenus-mod
Generating /root/.jwmrc...

real   0m2.070s
user   0m1.140s
sys   0m0.507s



diff
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pull/679/files
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pull/681/files
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pull/684/files
fixmenus.tar.gz
Description 
gz

 Download 
Filename  fixmenus.tar.gz 
Filesize  2.14 KB 
Downloaded  189 Time(s) 

Last edited by jlst on Thu 17 Dec 2015, 22:01; edited 2 times in total
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jlst

Joined: 23 Nov 2012
Posts: 571

PostPosted: Wed 16 Dec 2015, 11:54    Post subject:  

======================================
/usr/sbin/indexgen.sh: speed up
======================================

This is how you know whether there are differences in the output

Code:

indexgen.sh
cp /usr/share/doc/index.html /usr/share/doc/index.html.orig
./indexgen.sh
diff /usr/share/doc/index.html /usr/share/doc/index.html.orig


Test
Processor: intel celeron 1.80ghz / FSB 400mhz / cache 128k
Puppy: slacko 6.3.0 gzip compressed, all startup apps removed

Code:
# time indexgen.sh
real   0m10.645s
user   0m2.733s
sys   0m4.980s

# time ./indexgen.sh
real   0m2.332s
user   0m1.133s
sys   0m0.567s
indexgen.sh-20151216.tar.gz
Description 
gz

 Download 
Filename  indexgen.sh-20151216.tar.gz 
Filesize  1.99 KB 
Downloaded  190 Time(s) 
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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 14412
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Wed 16 Dec 2015, 16:56    Post subject:  

jlst wrote:
=================================
/usr/sbin/fixmenus: speed up
=================================

With these changes, fixmenus performs up to 4 times faster on slow cpus
After running fixmenus, my jwm and icewm menus look exactly the same, so I think this is safe...

Test

Processor: intel celeron 1.80ghz / FSB 400mhz / cache 128k

Puppy: slacko 6.3.0 gzip compressed, all startup apps removed

Code:
# time fixmenus
Generating /root/.jwmrc...

real   0m9.039s
user   0m2.843s
sys   0m3.487s


# time ./fixmenus-mod
Generating /root/.jwmrc...

real   0m2.070s
user   0m1.140s
sys   0m0.507s



diff
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pull/679/files
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/pull/681/files


Hello jlst.

Did you just waste your time and talent?

About this one at least, fixmenus, technosaurus started a thread about
its improvement
way back when (in 2011). His input and input from
participants in that thread made it not four times faster but indeed
ten times faster. Then former forum member aragon and I picked up
on it for an alternative menu based on aemenu. (Please see here.)

In addition to programming skills, maybe devs should acquire historical
and research skills, and apply them in their work. Then they wouldn't
"multiply logical beings needlessly", they wouldn't redo what has already
been done (Ockham's Razor Principle).

Unfortunately, the woof-CE "committee-driven" github is not pro-active
on that level, it's not conducive to that. It's not a discovery process, it's
a "bring-it-to-Papa" process. If the shortcoming has already been solved
outside woof-CE but was not brought to "Papa", tough.

BFN.

_________________
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
Je suis né pour aimer et non pas pour haïr. (Sophocle) /
I was born to love and not to hate. (Sophocles)

Last edited by musher0 on Wed 16 Dec 2015, 22:04; edited 1 time in total
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666philb


Joined: 07 Feb 2010
Posts: 3491
Location: wales

PostPosted: Wed 16 Dec 2015, 18:07    Post subject:  

musher0 wrote:

Another obstacle I see is that to embark on the woof process a user
needs to know his Puppy AND his Linux through and through. I'd say it's
for the top 1 % of Puppyists only. IIRC, Barry K. has 10 books on
computing to his name and I don't know how many years of experience;
some of the new Puppy devs are system administrators or professors in
computer science or trained technicians active in the field. How does the
average Joe and Joan User measure up to that? The average Joe and
Joan User just don't have the skills to take advantage of a process such
as the woof process.

Remember paint by numbers? The woof process is 10,000 % more
complicated than that.

My 2¢. BFN.


hi musher0,

i'm just an average joe / user. see some of my first posts....

me not knowing how to resolve dependencies http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=63483
muggins telling me how to use LDD http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=63650
my first .pet and amigo explaining symlinks http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=64180
pemasu helped me compile my first program on #puppylinux irc
quickpet in tahrpup is a direct descendant from lobsters spagen gui http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=64726

got my first PC about 8 years ago, first got internet 6 years ago, first used linux 5.5 years ago,namely puppy.
i've always been a fan of the ubuntu pups, lucid, precise, raring then barry retired and pemasu disappeared , so when there was a call out (the same as now) for woofce builders about 1.5 years ago i decided to have a go.

after about a week of playing with woofCE i posted the first tahrpup, which was pretty broken,...so broken i almost didn't post it at all, but i did, and after 6 months of development with contributions from lots of the community (including yourself and jlst) tahrpup 6.0-CE was released and went on to score 10 out of 10 in Linux format magazine.

anyone can use woofCE ..i'm testament to that, , you just initially need a bit of time , a willingness to learn and some persistence.

i'm happy to help anyone who's willing to give it a go.

666philb (no degree)

_________________
Bionicpup64 built with bionic beaver packages http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=114311
Xenialpup64, built with xenial xerus packages http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=107331
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B.K. Johnson

Joined: 12 Oct 2009
Posts: 769

PostPosted: Wed 16 Dec 2015, 20:31    Post subject:  

@666philb
Thanks very much for that post. It is most encouraging to "just a user" like me. Now, I want to try too. I'll be calling on you.

_________________
B.K. Johnson
tahrpup-6.0.5 PAE (upgraded from 6.0 =>6.0.2=>6.0.3=>6.0.5 via quickpet/PPM=Not installed); slacko-5.7 occasionally. Frugal install, pupsave file, multi OS flashdrive, FAT32 , SYSLINUX boot, CPU-Dual E2140, 4GB RAM

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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 14412
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Wed 16 Dec 2015, 22:10    Post subject:  

@666philb:

Thanks for the nice and positive reply. I guess I'm just fed up with the whole
thing right now.

I'm borderline thinking of quitting Puppy altogether, to be frank. Sometimes,
we Puppyists so look like we're chasing our tails...

Again thanks for the words of encouragement.

BFN.

musher0

_________________
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
Je suis né pour aimer et non pas pour haïr. (Sophocle) /
I was born to love and not to hate. (Sophocles)
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Puppus Dogfellow


Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 1629
Location: nyc

PostPosted: Thu 17 Dec 2015, 00:14    Post subject: some questions, suggestions, and advice
Subject description: (just kidding--i have no idea what's going on)
 

i know there's a thread for my questions about system requirements and how to download something that you need to do this sort of thing, but before i even get to all that, i have some questions and some possibly questionable ideas about things.

can you set up a puppy to always default to the smallest package available after calculating dependencies and comparing source repos? in other words, is it possible to do entirely away with making pups that are specifically t2-, slackware-, ubuntu-, (etc.) based and instead have them able to use any and all linux packages that could conceivably run on a given architecture? i'm not even sure if what i wrote makes any sense, but sometimes think about getting involved with woof ce and wonder what kind of pup i'd make--many utilities can turn debs, pets, and/or txz files into pets--these represent the main linux flavors, no? i admit i'm a noob and that this may make no sense at all, but i at least need to sort it out in my head before i even think about going any further. i just used the slackware recoll in ubuntu-based werewolf--the ubuntu packages are huge by comparison and don't work. could a ppm be set up to compare what would work with a system, which packages to choose, and then (offer to) strip or augment them based on some configuration options? why convert the stuff after if you could just pick whatever from wherever beforehand? eventually databases of what works best with least system strain can be built for what's popular. and what's not popular, for that matter. also, maybe make the kernel switching integral/automatic to the builds as they are being made? i've seen discussion (technosaurus and BarryK, maybe goingnuts?) about x32--that's just an option like 32bit or 64bit and isn't hardware dependent? that sounds great if true. why not make it easy to have any core pups (how many would be needed?) be able to flip between any of the three? this already exists in some of stemsee's releases with 64 and 32...well, since i'm babbling about developing--i think it's great that Barry went back to isos and allowed werewolf to use sfs files. i think undoing it wouldn't serve any real purpose but he's the man so... rambling forward, slacko64 seems to make it really easy to use 32 bit programs with the compatibility sfs--think that should be made a convenience in every 64 bit distro. does this complicate things further if it's no longer specific to a specific linux flavor? (what's the real term?). so before i even think about beginning, how silly or impractical is this? do the libraries destroy one another? if so, is there a workaround? would it save everyone time if every distro could use any linux package? awaiting abuse,

puppus.

Very Happy

666philb wrote:
musher0 wrote:

Another obstacle I see is that to embark on the woof process a user
needs to know his Puppy AND his Linux through and through. I'd say it's
for the top 1 % of Puppyists only. IIRC, Barry K. has 10 books on
computing to his name and I don't know how many years of experience;
some of the new Puppy devs are system administrators or professors in
computer science or trained technicians active in the field. How does the
average Joe and Joan User measure up to that? The average Joe and
Joan User just don't have the skills to take advantage of a process such
as the woof process.

Remember paint by numbers? The woof process is 10,000 % more
complicated than that.

My 2¢. BFN.


hi musher0,

i'm just an average joe / user. see some of my first posts....

me not knowing how to resolve dependencies http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=63483
muggins telling me how to use LDD http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=63650
my first .pet and amigo explaining symlinks http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=64180
pemasu helped me compile my first program on #puppylinux irc
quickpet in tahrpup is a direct descendant from lobsters spagen gui http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=64726

got my first PC about 8 years ago, first got internet 6 years ago, first used linux 5.5 years ago,namely puppy.
i've always been a fan of the ubuntu pups, lucid, precise, raring then barry retired and pemasu disappeared , so when there was a call out (the same as now) for woofce builders about 1.5 years ago i decided to have a go.

after about a week of playing with woofCE i posted the first tahrpup, which was pretty broken,...so broken i almost didn't post it at all, but i did, and after 6 months of development with contributions from lots of the community (including yourself and jlst) tahrpup 6.0-CE was released and went on to score 10 out of 10 in Linux format magazine.

anyone can use woofCE ..i'm testament to that, , you just initially need a bit of time , a willingness to learn and some persistence.

i'm happy to help anyone who's willing to give it a go.

666philb (no degree)


inspirational, phil.

hang in there, musher0. looking forward to whatever you make.
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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 3069

PostPosted: Thu 17 Dec 2015, 00:34    Post subject:  

Puppus Dogfellow,
you may want to look at some of the many amigo's posts on the matter.

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