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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 3455
Location: The Blue Marble

PostPosted: Mon 13 Jan 2020, 13:12    Post subject:  

BarryK wrote:
Yes, but falling back to a "generic template" is not hardware-profiling -- it is what we had prior to 2007 before hardware-profiling was introduced.

If someone modifies xorg.conf and the files in xorg.conf.d, for booting on a particular PC, that is likely to be inappropriate when boot on another PC.

If you then go to the trouble of configuring xorg.conf and xorg.conf.d on the second PC, then it won't work on the first.

As far as I can see, looking around on woof-CE, Xorg effectively no longer has hardware profiling.

Correct, but the counter-point is:
a) these days autoconfig works reliably, there is very little need to manually edit xorg.conf
b) sometimes different machines have GPU with the same name (as detected by hardware-profiler) but requires different configuration, so in that case the hardware profile is a hindrance rather than help (as mistfire said).

If you still want to hardware profile, the it is probably better to profile based on machine-id (machine serial number and/or UUID) as returned by dmi-decode, rather than using GPU names. Of course, this still not foolproof and has its own set of problems: what if the owner changes the GPU card, etc; plus it doesn't work on ARM boards that don't have "dmi-decode", etc.

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BarryK
Puppy Master


Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 9224
Location: Perth, Western Australia

PostPosted: Mon 13 Jan 2020, 19:13    Post subject:  

jamesbond wrote:
BarryK wrote:
Yes, but falling back to a "generic template" is not hardware-profiling -- it is what we had prior to 2007 before hardware-profiling was introduced.

If someone modifies xorg.conf and the files in xorg.conf.d, for booting on a particular PC, that is likely to be inappropriate when boot on another PC.

If you then go to the trouble of configuring xorg.conf and xorg.conf.d on the second PC, then it won't work on the first.

As far as I can see, looking around on woof-CE, Xorg effectively no longer has hardware profiling.

Correct, but the counter-point is:
a) these days autoconfig works reliably, there is very little need to manually edit xorg.conf
b) sometimes different machines have GPU with the same name (as detected by hardware-profiler) but requires different configuration, so in that case the hardware profile is a hindrance rather than help (as mistfire said).

If you still want to hardware profile, the it is probably better to profile based on machine-id (machine serial number and/or UUID) as returned by dmi-decode, rather than using GPU names. Of course, this still not foolproof and has its own set of problems: what if the owner changes the GPU card, etc; plus it doesn't work on ARM boards that don't have "dmi-decode", etc.


Many people run the xorgwizard, because video either misbehaves or even not work at all.

An example of misbehaving, is that Xorg may automatically choose 'sna' video acceleration, but that may be very flakey, even causing hanging. The xorgwizard in EasyOS allows to switch between 'sna' and the older 'uxa' video acceleration.

So, the person then boots up on another PC, and xorgwizard has hard-coded the intel driver to use 'uxa', and that might not even work. So they run the xorgwizard and change it to 'sna'.

Another example is screen resolution. This may be hard-coded, as often the automatic choice is wrong. Same problem when boot on another PC.

I agree that the hardware-profile string could be improved. I have some thoughts on that. For example, obtain the IDs of the GPU:

Code:
# lspci -d ::0300 -n | cut -f 3 -d ' '
8086:5a85


...would that work on arm boards?

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ozsouth

Joined: 01 Jan 2010
Posts: 670
Location: S.E Australia

PostPosted: Mon 13 Jan 2020, 23:56    Post subject:  

Having had the video issue BK describes on 2 very different pcs, I set modesetting driver as default on generic isos. Can still have occasional issues.
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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 3455
Location: The Blue Marble

PostPosted: Tue 14 Jan 2020, 03:32    Post subject:  

BarryK wrote:
I agree that the hardware-profile string could be improved. I have some thoughts on that. For example, obtain the IDs of the GPU:

Code:
# lspci -d ::0300 -n | cut -f 3 -d ' '
8086:5a85


...would that work on arm boards?
Unfortunately, no. Most ARM boards don't have PCI bus, so using lspci won't work. But it has been a while since I work with ARM boards, so things may have changed.
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BarryK
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Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 9224
Location: Perth, Western Australia

PostPosted: Tue 14 Jan 2020, 06:22    Post subject:  

jamesbond wrote:
BarryK wrote:
I agree that the hardware-profile string could be improved. I have some thoughts on that. For example, obtain the IDs of the GPU:

Code:
# lspci -d ::0300 -n | cut -f 3 -d ' '
8086:5a85


...would that work on arm boards?
Unfortunately, no. Most ARM boards don't have PCI bus, so using lspci won't work. But it has been a while since I work with ARM boards, so things may have changed.


Ditto. I vaguely thought they didn't have pci bus, but can't really remember. I will have to fire up my RPi3.

But hardware profiling doesn't really matter on an arm board, as you would usually have a build of Puppy that only works on a particular type of board. Different monitors though.
Or a family of boards, such 01micko's RasPup, works on all the RiPis.

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BarryK
Puppy Master


Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 9224
Location: Perth, Western Australia

PostPosted: Tue 14 Jan 2020, 06:31    Post subject:  

ozsouth wrote:
Having had the video issue BK describes on 2 very different pcs, I set modesetting driver as default on generic isos. Can still have occasional issues.


Yeah, that's another example. I have three desktop PCs and three laptops, all of them have Intel GPUs, and Xorg chooses the 'intel' driver on some, the 'modesetting' driver on the others.

This automatic choice is not always what you want, hence you run the xorgwizard.

Once you have run the xorgwizard, or selected a video resolution other than the default, you have locked-in to that video hardware.

Then you boot your usb-stick on another computer, and your video has a good likelihood of being broken.

Hence, the dropping of PuppyHardwareProfile in 2016, was a bad move.

EDIT:
Keyboard layout is another example. People who work in international environments might use PCs with different keyboards. Choosing a particular keyboard layout is another thing that locks you in to that hardware, and your keyboard will be wrong when you boot on another PC. PuppyHardwareProfile fixed that.

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Smithy


Joined: 12 Dec 2011
Posts: 1094

PostPosted: Tue 14 Jan 2020, 09:52    Post subject:  

There are definitely some issues with the new video methods on intel (GMA 3000 I think).
I am getting a streak on the monitor and a lot of the time the puppy starts but then the monitor goes blank, makes an attempt to come on again, then goes off again at the final boot stage.
I can hear the monitor giving a little squeal as it turns on and off.

Eventually after resets, it seems to tune to the new puppy (no saves, just straight ram boot).
That is on 64 bit Dpup Buster, but I noticed problems on Bionic 64, but also newer 32 bitters.
I replaced the bios battery, thinking it was that, but the issue seems to affecting the bios and auto monitor?
Also that dialogue comes up sometimes that offers choices like "Do nothin, carry on" 2. set video etc.
Well I would rather it just carries on without that dialogue, like it used to!


Not sure if this is all related to the developments in WoofCE, and it is an older dual core board, but I don't want
the intel chip to potentially suffer damage.

This bios doesn't have UEFI (or I have turned CMS off) and is
Vendor : Intel Open Source Technology Center
Renderer: Mesa DRI Intel(R) Sandybridge Desktop x86/MMX/SSE2
Version : 3.0 Mesa 17.2.2
Direct Rendering: Yes
Note: The above renderer has worked extremely well for a long time.

Will have to check what the renderer says in Buster and Bionic.
I don't want to create any red herrings here, just an experience with this type of computer.
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rockedge


Joined: 11 Apr 2012
Posts: 1526
Location: Connecticut, United States

PostPosted: Tue 14 Jan 2020, 14:40    Post subject:  

what kernel are you using ?
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Smithy


Joined: 12 Dec 2011
Posts: 1094

PostPosted: Tue 14 Jan 2020, 15:42    Post subject:  

Hi rockedge, I was using the provided kernel in Joseph DPup Buster 4.19, then I flipped it to 4.4.52-rt63 (fatdog jamesbond).
Changed it to see if the newer kernel and drivers could be causing the problem.
I'll reset the bios at some point to see if I can get rid of the streak.
I think that did work a while ago when I was messing with various puppies.
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Smithy


Joined: 12 Dec 2011
Posts: 1094

PostPosted: Fri 17 Jan 2020, 07:35    Post subject:  

Following up on this:
I removed bios battery, reset the jumper, reseated the ram.
CSM Compatibility Support Module permits the loading of a traditional operation system.
Enable to support Non-UEFI operation system
Disable to support Win8 64 bit and later UEFI aware operation system.
So I disabled the CSM, upshot is the pixellated video streak across the monitor has gone now.
The Intel renderer is 3.0 Mesa 18.3.6 64 bit. Will test Jose Dpup Buster 64 bit for a while, but so far so good.
Pulse Audio is interesting in that you can whack the volume up to 11db increase and no distortion, (vlc 3.0Cool
maybe it has a brickwall limiter in it.

Just in case this is a woof ce issue, running the firewall setup has a couple of rule append errors- invalid argument.
Tray button just seems to overwrite taskbar menu fixes in jwm (duplicated menu button) but not sure how that thing works (xdg?)
Openbox right click menu bjorked (as an alternative to jwm) again xdg refresh problem or something?
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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 12975
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Fri 17 Jan 2020, 13:56    Post subject:  

Smithy wrote:
So I disabled the CSM, upshot is the pixellated video streak across the monitor has gone now.

It's been my experience that enabling CSM (legacy mode) can get you the lowest common denominator for things like video drivers.

Better to leave the machine in UEFI mode and use a UEFI bootloader.
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norgo


Joined: 13 Nov 2015
Posts: 362
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun 19 Jan 2020, 19:54    Post subject:  

BarryK wrote:
Many people run the xorgwizard, because video either misbehaves or even not work at all.
An example of misbehaving, is that Xorg may automatically choose 'sna' video acceleration, but that may be very flakey, even causing hanging. The xorgwizard in EasyOS allows to switch between 'sna' and the older 'uxa' video acceleration.
So, the person then boots up on another PC, and xorgwizard has hard-coded the intel driver to use 'uxa', and that might not even work. So they run the xorgwizard and change it to 'sna'.

... and that's not all.
Often laptops are equipped with two different GPU's of course of different vendors (e.g. integrated intel GPU and a nvidia GPU additional on board)
Unfortunately my intel GPU has hanging and freezing problems with sna acceleration too, so I modified the xorg_intel_uxa.sh script.

Script becomes called from xorgwizard now ( AUTOMATIC only).
It's checking the number of GPU's of different vendors,
read the GPU device ID's
and compares the intel device ID to a list of affected GPU's
if match an 20-intel.conf file becomes written.

In case of more than one GPU or an already existing intel.conf file, script will be terninated.
Additional script considers the bootparameter (inteluxa|uxa....) , if bootparameter is used, list of intel device ID's will be ignored.
As I said, this is only my solution to solve the intel accel problem, nothing else.

In my opinion no automatic is able to detect what graphics chip has problems with a special kind of acceleration or driver/version.
A list of device ID's of affected chips is an option.

What has been modified / added?

/etc/xorg-intel-device-id add ( list of device id's )
/etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit mod ( force_uxa parameter added )
/usr/sbin/xorg_intel_uxa.sh mod ( massively modified )
/usr/sbin/xorgwizard mod ( added to AUTOMATIC section )

update
for test you can download and modify this image: slacko-6.9.9.9-INTEL_AUTO_UXA.iso
currently /etc/xorg-intel-device-id contains following intel device id's (known for hanging freezing problems with sna)
0412, 2562, 27a2
feel free and add intel device id's of affected GPU's for test
intel_auto_uxa.tar
Description  intel auto uxa stuff
tar

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Filename  intel_auto_uxa.tar 
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scsijon

Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1578
Location: the australian mallee

PostPosted: Sat 01 Feb 2020, 00:26    Post subject:  

Smithy wrote:
There are definitely some issues with the new video methods on intel (GMA 3000 I think).
I am getting a streak on the monitor and a lot of the time the puppy starts but then the monitor goes blank, makes an attempt to come on again, then goes off again at the final boot stage.
I can hear the monitor giving a little squeal as it turns on and off.


A squeal from the monitor use to be the sign that the system is trying to run the frequency too high when trying to test for screen matrixes, in bad cases it caused the capacitor or transformer itself to burn out. It shouldn't happen in anything new and anything with a digital input (that can send back the signal ranges when starting up). I've only seen it with one new system where the video system was overdriven and burnt out the monitors digital input stage, not suppose to be able to happen, but....
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rockedge


Joined: 11 Apr 2012
Posts: 1526
Location: Connecticut, United States

PostPosted: Sat 01 Feb 2020, 12:15    Post subject:  

I've produced several Bionic64's with woof-CE and keep running into some bugs.

the original "console" desktop icon link opens List dependencies

when adding any huge kernel to /woof_out_XXXX/huge-kernel
the build process is failing to use that kernel or give it as a choice.
Matter of fact what did happen to choosing the kernel during the build process?
Wasn't there a selection inquiry during the run?
Now all I see is the kernel 4,19.23 getting used no matter what.
I must be doing something wrong suddenly...does anyone have a solution?
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Smithy


Joined: 12 Dec 2011
Posts: 1094

PostPosted: Fri 07 Feb 2020, 05:10    Post subject:  

I've noticed woofce touching ntfs partitions (windows system 32 and other places).
This seems like ill behaviour to me and could present a security problem.
And it is causing problems with win on boot. This is persistent, even on a usb frugal with no save,
so it might be bridging some flags on the partition.
I'm not so sure the title of this thread is relevant if some maverick is planning a
partnership with microsoft!
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