(old)Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

01micko wrote:

bugman wrote: [boo]

Don't do that! You'll give a bloke heart failure!

wot, a slayer fan?

"Reign in Blood"... now there's a theme!

Since where was it we were designing an operating system aimed at semi-retired people with an interest in linux internals who remember black and white TV? Puppy Linux should not just be intellectual exercise for computer experts (with beards). If we want Puppy Linux to be a useful and beneficial piece of technology to as many people as possible (which Im ASSUMING is the case) then it needs to appeal to as many people as possible, of all ages/races/social backgrounds.

Sophie is no academic computer graduate, or the most elequent writer....but neither is she stupid or a child. She has an interest in working computers, but no interest in how computers work. Why should she face agism when she is coming on here (for free) to give the feedback from her testing? WhoDo, youve shown a great many various prejudices on here which hold you back when co-ordinating large voluntary inclusive project. It makes me very proud that you cite me as one of the reasons that you will not be continuing the overall co-ordination of the Puppy Linux project.

@Bugman,

bugman wrote:as regards boring, a long time ago a good friend said she thought there were two types of people in the world, boring people and stupid people

Ive never met anyone so stupid I cant learn anything from them...

You make a good point about the "no wallpaper"....when you wish to sell your house for the best price, you would paint it in attractive, but fairly neutral colours, without undue "personalisation".

Back to the issue of the colourscheme, to attract the most users...Puppy should have a default theme of neutral colours....and the wallpaper should be plain with relatively little pattern/design so as not to detract from the functions (icons).

ecomoney wrote:WhoDo, youve shown a great many various prejudices on here which hold you back when co-ordinating large voluntary inclusive project.

Never miss a chance to be a sh*t do you!

ecomoney wrote:Since where was it we were designing an operating system aimed at semi-retired people with an interest in linux internals who remember black and white TV?

To quote Tonto in the ageless joke about the Lone Ranger, "Who 'we' white man?" We is meant to be an inclusive term, but you don't seem to want to include anyone who isn't in your immediate field of vision! Since when were YOU "designing" anything? Is that your latest claim to "fame"; that you helped "design" Puppy Linux? Thank goodness your web site went down to remove the blasphemy it was still proclaiming - that you were the "Project Manager" for the Puppy Talking Stick project. Take it down yourself out of sheer embarrassment, did you? The world is not Scunny and Scunny is not the world!

ecomoney wrote:Puppy Linux should not just be intellectual exercise for computer experts (with beards). If we want Puppy Linux to be a useful and beneficial piece of technology to as many people as possible (which Im ASSUMING is the case) then it needs to appeal to as many people as possible, of all ages/races/social backgrounds.

So having a beard makes one an "intellectual" and a computer expert with an "interest in Linux internals"? Hmmmmm...AFAIK until recently Bugman hadn't ventured beyond his much beloved Puppy 1.07! Yeah, you're right, he's REALLY into "experimenting" with computers and Linux internals! He is certainly an expert,though; at squeezing the most value he can out of something before even considering moving on!

ecomoney wrote:Sophie is no academic computer graduate, or the most elequent writer....but neither is she stupid or a child. She has an interest in working computers, but no interest in how computers work. Why should she face agism when she is coming on here (for free) to give the feedback from her testing?

Agism? Oh, you mean Ageism! Since when is asking someone how old they are "stereotyping" or "discrimination". Actually I was taking my lead on Sophie's age from her somewhat juvenile alias - sophiebabi - and her insistance on what "kids" might want. I was merely attempting to confirm that.

I like to try to understand a person's social source of reference before responding to them; it helps to AVOID addressing them in discriminatory terms and either talking above their heads or talking down to them. If Sophie wants to be taken seriously, she should stop talking, and acting, like a child. Only children make selfish demands without genuine concern for anyone but themselves. I want bright colours ... wah ... I'm bored ... wah ... I want facebook chat ... wah... you're boring ... brrrttttt .... speaks volumes, doesn't it?

ecomoney wrote:WhoDo, youve shown a great many various prejudices on here which hold you back when co-ordinating large voluntary inclusive project. It makes me very proud that you cite me as one of the reasons that you will not be continuing the overall co-ordination of the Puppy Linux project.

Ah, pride! I take pride in building things up, not tearing them down. But then I'm not a lazy "foreman"-type with a giant sized chip on my shoulder and no ambitions beyond self agrandisement! I'm sure your "work" in Scunny and surrounds makes you feel like a "big man on campus", Rob. If that's the extent of your ambition you've made it, man!

ecomoney wrote:Back to the issue of the colourscheme, to attract the most users...Puppy should have a default theme of neutral colours....and the wallpaper should be plain with relatively little pattern/design so as not to detract from the functions (icons).

...and back to business as usual for ecomoney - telling other people what will and won't do/be/happen blah blah. How can you get that giant ego of yours in out of the rain? I tried to tell you nicely; people who develop voluntarily for Puppy don't like being told what to do! If you want something different than you're getting, do it yourself! Now to tell you again, not so nicely ... ttuuxxx has you pegged IMO. What words did he use...nob, tool, ... something like that? Good call, ttuuxxx!

sophiebabi wrote:For you information 'WhoDo' Rob is not not my uncle or my 'Daddy' as you put it I am the babysitter.

You should never ask a female how old they are that is just damn right rude.

Ah, the babysitter! I knew there was a direct connection there. Thank you for confirming it!

"Never", dear Sophie, is an absolute. Speaking in absolutes gives others the impression that you have some special knowledge or expertise on a subject. I seldom use them. As for asking your age, I had no choice, really. You were "behaving" in a somewhat childish manner, and since I cannot see you (from your avatar) and have no detail in your profile here, I have no choice but to ask to avoid embarrassment for both of us!

BTW, the expression is "downright rude" not "damn right rude", ok? Just thought you'd like to know. Now, if you'd like to continue expressing your OPINION of what young people might like in an interface, please feel free to do so, but be sure to identify it as an OPINION and not a fact. IMO (In My Opinion) or IMHO (In My Humble Opinion) are two good shortcut ways for doing that in a text-based forum. And please, dear Sophie, stop making apparent DEMANDS about things like Facebook Chat, and instead be polite enough to ASK for your requests to be considered along with everyone else's.

Have a nice day, Sophie.

egomoney wrote:Puppy Linux should not just be intellectual exercise for computer experts (with beards).

i didn't realize you might be addressing me with this pearl, but it's funny, i AM the newbie you are always whining about, never able to figure out linux until i stumbled onto puppy

while i have learned a mountain in the last couple of years, i still am not enough of an 'expert' to help with development, and remain a simple user, like those you claim to champion

egomoney wrote:Ive never met anyone so stupid I cant learn anything from them...

oh now i am REALLY laughing . . .

[perhaps this is the source of the problem?]

Hmmm, I have a beard....

Maybe we could have a "bearded" theme...

edit; (Kerry King also has a beard, lead guitar, Slayer: at last pic, BarryK had a beard; Santa has a beard)

up against the wall, 'expert'!

I also have a beard... well ,gotee .....

I also have a beard......don't know about being an expert though.

runtt21 wrote:I also have a beard... well ,gotee .....

I have a beard, too. So does Barry Kauler. Hmmm... maybe being hirsute is an external indication of possessing good common sense, the way Sampson's hair was the source of his strength. Anyone notice whether or not ecomoney is clean shaven?

And i can play Reign in Blood and South of Heaven....

ecomoney

Ive not had a lot of time to test Woof in detail...Im sorry. Im a fan of many of the technical concepts which are being introduced, especially ubuntu package compatibility. I dont want to come across as derisory or spoil anyones enthusiasm for the project at all....and I feel I must report this.

I did give it a quick download and test at my friends house, and showed it to a few "linux newbies" who were round visiting. The first thing one of them said was:-

Quote:
Whats the matter with the monitor...why is it only showing in black and white?

well ...I disagree again with your approach
but I disagree with many people and still offer
technical help and leave what little emotions I have left out of it

so back to one common point
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 5&start=58
if you wanted to change the look a pet package add on is no big deal


if you would like to improve puppy's looks
these links below are more than enough to make it look however
you imagine it should be

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=23260
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=20702
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/index.php?f=37
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=4001

P.S I don't take sides

Joe

WhoDo wrote:Anyone notice whether or not ecomoney is clean shaven?

Im currently project manager for a top ten Linux Distro.

hmm...seems pretty 'bald-faced' if you ask me...

Once again, being witty and perceptive.....
Buggy my man, you aint doing dull and boring justice....
Good call on that one bud....

@Should it concern me that I too have a beard??
Damn profiling......

Oh dear Lord, its 7.00 am here in the UK. Gird up everybody, prepare yourselves for another A4 side of drivel....................

C'mon guys... we're a bunch of bearded experts here.... so what's wrong? Why isn't Puppy teetering on the brink of world domination?

Are we too boring? are we too stupid?

I got it! We need a boring, stupid theme!

(er... sorry Daves.... no conky/pwidgets/opera resolution yet )

@ Whodo: Im not going to get into your observations of Sophie (those are for her to respond to!), but I know she wont mind me saying, she is a fairly typical 19 year old young lady....20 next week.

She uses a computer as a communication tool to keep in touch with her social network, read, ebay, look for jobs, and also sometimes for games. She is typical of far more computer users than those that would know anything about BASH...not that those who do are any less, or anymore, significant...

Heres a quick graphic



Source

How can this be? On the one hand with one percent of the worlds computers we have a free (as in beer) system that keeps your computer usable for three times longer, its design is open and flexible, it does not catch viruses, and takes minutes to install....on the other we have an expensive, slow system, of fixed design, that catches viruses, requires hours (indeterminate) to install. WHAT IS GOING ON?

Its very simple...most users prefer a system that is designed around their needs, that will mean they dont HAVE to learn about computer internals, and its easy to figure out how to work it to get things from it with the minimum of time invested in learning about it.

Why is this? Windows developers have an incentive to produce programs that appeal to a wide range of people...because the more people they can get to use their software the more people there are to pay them for producing it. Linux developers...on the other hand only have an incentive to write code that benefits themselves.

These are the "top ten" current annoyances to new Puppy Users

1. Extremely difficult to install without in depth linux knowledge
2. Lack of the most popular applications available through the installer (FF, OO, aMSN,Skype)
3. Looks "old", Grey Win98 look/console loading/Xorg config is unattractive to new users.
4. Pup_save.2fs fills up, without resizing automatically.
5. Java does not install automatically to support things like facebook chat/ebay.
6. The internet connection wizard is unintuitive, and does not open automatically when needed (i.e. opening Seamonkey with no active Connection)
7. Single click on the desktop creates unfamiliar first impression.
8. Mousewheel over desktop make applications "appear" to crash.
9. Mime Types are incomplete + unhelpful errors if filetypes are not supported.
10. File system difficult to navigate/filemanger unfamiliar to new users

Some developers even see these difficulties as "features". What personal reasons would any developer have to address any of these things? To help out Sophie?

There ARE "good developers", genuinely altruistic people, with and without beards no doubt, that will and are addressing these problems, they only need to be ASKED. Ive found if you put the point to them (well) that there is a real NEED for something, they will supply it....all thats needed then is a proactive project co-ordinator/manager (whats the difference?) who will recognise what issues(/attitudes) are preventing linux take-up, and include solutions to these issues. Whether this is called called "managing", "co-ordinating", "Chief Developing" or whatever is academic.

Heres a screenie from the 2.14 Phoenix/Talking Stick project alpha release



It seems that several names are lent to that job.

Since its not been "officially" ended, development is ongoing as far as Im concerned...in fact 2 series development is still going strong. It will have a strong base, with a wide range of available software....but its not going to be a significant improvement/enhancement of standard puppy until the top ten usability issues (above) have been resolved...many have been or are in the process of being resolved already. Then the project can move forward, with some real benefits for a great many more people.

@ Bugman



(The one you posted bugman was a scan of an artists ink sketch - a real one - done from this photo...its several years old now)

Heres a more current one.



Im definetely beardless....unless Ive been on a three day caffeine fueled Puppy binge.

Just for the record...Puppy should be for people with beards too...just not only for people with beards

@big_bass/joe

Thanks for those links....there is certainly no shortage of attractive themes for Puppy that have already been developed. All it requires is the will to use one of them. 4.1.2 series was the best looking of the "Win98-like" looking Puppies.....and its certainly possible at least to tell if the colour is working on the monitor or not. This is good news.

I coming round to your wisdom about keeping emotional responses out of things..this is forum for discussing Puppy Linux and how it can be improved. Those that cant keep to this...and the forum rules/ettiquette...are best left ignored. If they cant make an intelligent response to a point about puppy linux without resorting to pulling that person down/resorting to name calling for holding a different view to them.

P.S. Ive seen some of your work you are a talented scripter....with a thorough knowledge of puppy internals. Ideal skills to provide solutions to the above top ten problems...

@ DaveS

Yes it is 7am...Im just going to go to work at the preschool and the Seamans Mission. Good morning!

DaveS wrote:Oh dear Lord, its 7.00 am here in the UK. Gird up everybody, prepare yourselves for another A4 side of drivel....................

Jeez, Dave, between you and the Bugman I'd have split my stitches ages ago ... if I had any. Hang on, i'll check around the neck bolts .... ..... .... nope, all nicely healed there too!