(old)Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

Oh,I prefer the black eyes.
Looks like a puppy-doll.

With the white eyes, it looks too adult I think.

Mark

The black eyes look sad, and the white eyes look scary.

Solution: Less white, and more offwhitish. Maybe light brown. Or lighter brown, but still dark. Since it's small, a little white goes a long way. In fact, too far. Instead, suggest that it has white. Keep in mind that though they should be white/offwhitish, they are being antialiased with the black and brown, and so should look halfway between.

In addition to what kcin mentioned, it might give them a bit more form.

MU wrote:Oh,I prefer the black eyes.
Looks like a puppy-doll.

With the white eyes, it looks too adult I think.

Mark

That is probably due to the circular portion being smaller, since all I did was work with the existinng area. Bigger eyes are characteristic of younger creatures, so you are correct, to properly add the whites, the whole eyes must be made larger to compensate and preserve the more youthful appearance. This was a good observation, and one I neglected to mention before.

Pizzasgood wrote:The black eyes look sad, and the white eyes look scary. Wink

Solution: Less white, and more offwhitish. Maybe light brown. Or lighter brown, but still dark. Since it's small, a little white goes a long way. In fact, too far. Instead, suggest that it has white. Keep in mind that though they should be white/offwhitish, they are being antialiased with the black and brown, and so should look halfway between.

In addition to what kcin mentioned, it might give them a bit more form.

Another good observation Pizzasgood. - In fact, I did do quite a bit of anti-aliasing, but since I was working on a blow-up, when it was shrunk down it turned out to be not enough.

Also, keep in mind, my versions were never meant to be final versions, or to compete in any way, so I knocked them out quickly. I only wanted to illustrate my point, and hopefully engender a desire in Dave to perfect his creation.

Best Regards,

kcin

I looked again, and now it's not so scary. It just seems like there's a little more white than is needed. Maybe if the eyes were a hair bigger and the whites were slightly darker/tanner.

How it is, it almost looks like he's scared. If he had a big comic grin he'd look excited. That's what a little too much white will do. Otherwise I do like it. After looking at the one with whites, the other one looks even more sad and empty.

Maybe the corners of the eyes stick out too far? Maybe not? I don't know.

Hmm... the eyes also look sort of pointy with the sparkle. Like maybe it's too sharp.

________
The above are the criticisms of someone looking and thinking too hard, and who is actively trying to find something wrong (like a beta tester, not a nag)

I also know that that's just a test. I'm just trying to provide thoughts before david makes an alteration so he has some opinions before hand.

Pizzasgood wrote:The black eyes look sad, and the white eyes look scary.

exactly what I thought. I think happyness and excitement would be nicer. Sadly I have zero talent and when I draw a puppy it ends up looking like the scary dog from the invader zim tv show. in fact most things I draw end up looking like it. or worse.

kcin, thanks for the kind remarks and the constructive criticism. Both are very welcome and I do not take offense to them.

Without trying to sound too defensive, I would like to reassure you that the current look of the eyes was a conscious decision on my part.

From the beginning on, my goal was to make a simple logo with simple shapes (so the logo would work in a variety of sizes). A puppy that would have cartoony qualities that would underline its age (puppy). At the same time, I was trying to imitate the look of eyes you get from stuffed animals (button eyes) - in fact, that's how the whole logo started out, a mix of Barry's picture and a stuffed animal. At first, they were plain circular eyes. I noticed that they didn't quite have "cute" or "puppy" enough qualities to me, so I decided to deform the shape of the eyes a bit, without making them too complex. In my view the final shape is successful in expressing "puppy"-like qualities.

I certainly do not agree with you that the puppy appear emotionless and cold with all-black eyes. Take these pictures for example: http://www.areyougame.com/images/items/CA11383.jpg or http://www.gallica.us/the%20boys/puppy%203%20006.jpg. Emotionless and cold? Not to me.

No offense, but in my opinion, the point you were illustrating does not make the puppy look more "puppy"-like, in all its meanings, than my version. I think the detail adds age (as was mentioned already) and it might lead to complications when you have the image resized to a very small format, were the detail becomes obsolete. That's the reason I didn't add any other detail as well, such as whiskers, wrinkles or other features. In short, the differences between the two do not warrant any alterations - to me.

I realize this is just my opinion (I think), and if it is the general consensus that this detail should be added, then I would be happy to do so, even if I disagree with it or think it is not necessary.

I hope I didn't come across snappy, as I was just trying to explain my choices. The suggestion you made did cross my mind, but I consciously decided against it for the above mentioned reasons.

Also, I'm not saying the logo is perfect. Could it be better? Probably, but not with the suggestion that was made... at least not in my view. I think playing with the general shape of the eye, or creating overly disproportinate versions of the eyes (as has been suggested) may be venues to explore.

Thanks for your detailed and valuable input. I will experiment.
Also respectfully,
David

deshlab wrote:

Pizzasgood wrote:The black eyes look sad, and the white eyes look scary.

exactly what I thought. I think happyness and excitement would be nicer. Sadly I have zero talent and when I draw a puppy it ends up looking like the scary dog from the invader zim tv show. in fact most things I draw end up looking like it. or worse.

Heh, heh. Hey deshlab, I really like your InvaderZim_SpookyPup... Reminded me of another crazy chihuahua pic I have (see below)

I think there may be a place somehwere in the Puppyverse for pix like these... Who knows? Perhaps there's a bizarre Puplet being put together at this very moment for which one of these would be a perfect fit as a logo...

Regards,

kcin

David,

That is exactly the kind of response I'd hoped for - You're a class act to take critiques of your work with such grace.

And I do respect your design decisions. I'll be looking forward to see if you decide to make any changes, whether it's whites of the eyes or something else.

Like nature itself, the artistic, representational possibilities are practically endless. And like "Love", I suppose, when you get an artistic creation just right, you'll just know it.

I think neither of the eyes I came up with worked very well, and I still think your original eyes don't quite fulfill the potential of this design. However, I have faith that if there is a perfect set of eyes for this logo, you'll find them, and I'm betting this logo will really come together when you do.

Best Regards,

kcin

kcin,
not sure if you were being sarcastic about me taking the critique with such grace. I just read over my response again, and it kind of did sound a bit angry - not my intent. In case you weren't being sarcastic, I appreciate your understanding and respect of my decisions.

I think it will be hard to please everyone with one logo to share. Each person has their own idea of the "perfect" puppy, even if the differences are slight. To be fair, however, if a good number of people really think that changes need to be made to reflect certain qualities better, I am certainly willing to do so. Basically, I'm in the quest to please as many people as possible.

I will post any changes as they are done.

For people that have been trying to access my server for the logo pack or the grafpup iso, I have to offer my apologies. due to an overwhelming amount of traffic, my site has been locked. I was planning on upgrading the package anyway. I hope to have the site back up and running again soon. If anyone needs any of the files, please don't hesitate to ask

he is one scary chihuahua (and has a lobotomy scar)

good logo for pre-alpha puppy 2 we can get a less scared puppy logo for Beta releases

The grafpup iso is also available via http://dotpups.de/grafpup/ and ftp://puppyfiles.us/pub/releases/grafpup/

(Multiple mirror sites are always a good idea when they are possible.)

MU wrote:Puppian, please look here, I think I could get the edges softer using the Gimp. Maybe you like to use this one.



Mark

Thanks so much Mark.
I've put it there

Just a thought:
I recently watched a program on TV about how the most successful theatre plays were promoted, like "Cats" and "Les Miserables". One comment stuck right out at me -- the promoter said that the logos were designed without any text deliberately.
The Les Miserables logo is a little girl, very distinctive, and it is the image itself that people associate with the play.

I don't know if I explained that very well, but anyway, we could apply the principle to Puppy.
A distinctive logo on its own, no text, to become the official logo for Puppy. David has versions of the logo without text.
Puppy will become so popular that everyone will know the little doggy with the flower means Puppy Linux.

What Barry says makes sense. I would suggest a break between the leaf and ear - to make the leaf of the flower more distinct.

At this point we also need to consider the flower - what is it?
Flowers have a language (sorry they are in caps):

DOG ROSE - Pleasure and Pain
GLADIOLI - Generosity, I'm sincere, Flower of the gladiators
- this is a frisky choice, native to Oz
LARKSPUR - Levity, An Open Heart, Lightness
OLIVE BRANCH - Peace
ORCHID (CATTLEYA) - Mature Charm
POPPY (YELLOW ) - Success - that is what the flower looks like to me - it is sometimes known as a Welsh Poppy
ROSEBUD (RED) - Pure & Lovely
TURNIP - Charity

If we put the logo on any page the words Puppy Linux will always be there in some form (or implicit) so are not required

Regarding the eyes. Sunglasses or not? I vote for bigger black eyes.

From my opinion the picture of the doggy is nice and simple as Puppy is.
I agree with the opinion that text is not necessary. In fact it is a unconvincing part of the logo.
But the dog with the flower in its mouth seems to me a bit destructive, what from my experience Puppy isn't.
The picture of the doggy just like as it is, without text and flower would be enough.
Less is more. Just like Puppy.

David, just to say this again: although the discussion here is about potential changes (improvements?) of your design, you did a damn fine job there and a great service for Puppy. (Don't get the impression it's not wanted or something. )
-
the image could be perceived offensive (destructive) when you take the dog as the carnivorous canine who has murdered the flower not because of need but just for fun.

Maybe though he just picked it up from the ground dead already and not rooted it out himself. Maybe he wants ro return it, maybe even try to heal it? Or maybe the original puppy wanted to help BarryK with the gardenwork.

let's have the original picture here, as a reminder:

this is partly serious: is there someone around with maybe a psychology degree who could comment on the potential connotations of the dog/flower symbolism?

personally I think the flower is important mainly as a reference. the current logo dog would also look even more sad if you took away his flowers.

about the text in the logo: I think both versions should be around. On the puppy pages, where it says "PUPPY LINUX" all the time anyway, we could use the dog image alone, for distrowatch and similar we could have the dog plus text.

now that I look at the picture with the flower in focus, I think that maybe the shape of the flower stem (bend down line) is part of why the whole puppy looks sad to me. if you take the picture more abstract, it's a face with a large sad mouth at the bottom.

of course a flower bend upwards would seem unnatural, but maybe an 'S'-shape or something would be possible?

about lobster's idea, the flower type -
why don't we copy the popuplar google style here and variate the logo from time to time?

we could have puppy dog + flower as the general logo idea and change the type of flower with each each full release. would require only a change in the flower's bloom part and the rest would stay the same.

this might also introduce a new puppy nickname system, accompanied by a visible component: puppy rose (2.00), puppy tulip (2.01), puppy cactus (2.01 april-1st-edition).. you get my idea?

This is just my two cents worth, but....

Firstly, quickly looking through distrowatch, the vast majority of distributions have their name as part of the logo. I know that Puppy is unique, of course, but the casual viewer should be able to immediately associate the brand 'Puppy Linux' with the logo. And I think that the words look good framing the puppy top and bottom.

And the other thing was, my first reaction to seeing the puppy with the flower in his (or her) mouth was that the puppy was offering the flower with affection. I would never have thought of destruction, and even now it's been mentioned, I can't reconcile the look indicated by the eyes (soulful? loving?) with destruction.

Anyhow, just my two cents. I think the words help with brand/image association, and that the flower helps the puppy look adorable.

Much of the discussion to date, has centered around the eyes and how or what they communicate.

Another theme has been the flower and what it symbolizes or how it could be used to designate version number, etc.

Text and/or lack of it, in combination with symbol is a 3rd theme

Any other themes jump out at anyone?

I think the end result of the discussion will really be neat, and I am looking forward to what it will be.

Dewdrop