Puppy 4.2

[ttuuxxx]

I think the better one is my last 4.0 lite icewm 2mb including 86 new icons that was compiled on 4.0

@ttuuxxx - I have another small project for you. I am of a mind to include IceWM as an alternative window manager in Puppy 4.2, perhaps preempting a change in 4.3 or or beyond for the default. For the moment, though, JWM will remain the default in 4.2 ... SO, what I would like to see is a seamless, easy, reliable system for switching between the two wm's that newbies can use from the menu at a single click. Are you up for that?

I know that we have had issues before in getting from IceWM back to JWM. RichardA (I think?) tried to integrate the change and had problems he couldn't resolve around restarting X etc. Such a system would be considered a usability add-on in Puppy 4.2 and I'm sure would be welcomed by proponents of both wm's. Waddayasay?

Hey WhoDo

I like your thinking, that is an excellent idea!!, I'm glad Mu is leading the way on it, This is going to be great if you implement it. Would make a lot of new & old users very happy.
ttuuxxx

[Lobster]

On a side note I wonder if it's time to move to ICEWM as default.

DSL has two window managers (one of which is JWM - allowing for a more generic Puppy interface)

IceWm is more reliable and configurable than JWM (discontinued?) and remember if Puppy crashes because of the Window manager - who gets the blame?)

In the days before JWM Puppy never crashed - NEVER!
Two major sources of problems have been JWM and Flash (but we need Flash)

So Puppy can do more but at a cost . . .
I think using both Window managers is a great compromise and many people want it. They want their OS to look nice and be configerable.

I hope we have room . . .

[WhoDo]

The concept is easy.
Do not run from .xinitrc:
exec $CURRENTWM

Instead, run:
exec puppywm $CURRENTWM

Thanks, Mark. I'll give it a try.

@MU - Sorry, Mark, but no joy. I created the puppywm and called it from .xinitrc exactly as suggested. It wouldn't let me swap without also killing X and dropping me to a system prompt. Getting back was easy enough ... sometimes. A couple of times I had to run the xorgwizard to rebuild my xorg.conf file!

@ttuuxxx - I am trying to be reasonable and offer choices wherever possible. I'm also counting on you to produce the latest bug-free IceWM compiled on 4.x and taking around 2.5Mb or less. How's that for a challenge!

@Lobster - I hope it fits, too, Ed. It makes sense to offer the choice if we don't compromise the size objective. I'm still aiming for sub-95Mb with Puppy 4.2 and a solid, reliable and usable platform for the versions that follow. Barry has done heaps to get us to the door. All we need to do is to walk on through.

[ttuuxxx]

@ttuuxxx - I am trying to be reasonable and offer choices wherever possible. I'm also counting on you to produce the latest bug-free IceWM compiled on 4.x and taking around 2.5Mb or less. How's that for a challenge!

I can deliver that but it can't be the latest version, the reason why is that the latest version is full of bugs and doesn't compile properly, but I can compile the previous version no problem. has that sound, and for 2.5MB it will be much less
I hope I can keep my min/lower/max window buttons with the paws, I really like them I also can include a couple of new small themes I've been building, I'll try to get the target around 1.5MB or less
ttuuxxx

[01micko]

I can deliver that but it can't be the latest version, the reason why is that the latest version is full of bugs and doesn't compile properly, but I can compile the previous version no problem. has that sound, and for 2.5MB it will be much less
I hope I can keep my min/lower/max window buttons with the paws, I really like them I also can include a couple of new small themes I've been building, I'll try to get the target around 1.5MB or less
ttuuxxx

I love those paws, it's another great puppy innovation. Will they work ok with Zigbert's gtk orangish theme he has you working on?

[ttuuxxx]

I can deliver that but it can't be the latest version, the reason why is that the latest version is full of bugs and doesn't compile properly, but I can compile the previous version no problem. has that sound, and for 2.5MB it will be much less
I hope I can keep my min/lower/max window buttons with the paws, I really like them I also can include a couple of new small themes I've been building, I'll try to get the target around 1.5MB or less
ttuuxxx

I love those paws, it's another great puppy innovation. Will they work ok with Zigbert's gtk orangish theme he has you working on?

Only if we also use icewm. So far I haven't been able to theme JWM min/lower/max buttons, just icewm
ttuuxxx

[seeker]

WhoDo,

A suggestion for puppywm, why not write the chosen window manager to /etc/windowmanager and pop up a notice that the changes will take effect the next time you start Puppy, or something like that. I read about that in another thread and it was reported to work.

Seeker

[MU]

Whodo,
I just tried it in a fresh Puppy 4.1.0.

Here is what I did:
Typed in rxvt:
touch /usr/local/bin/puppywm
chmod 755 /usr/local/bin/puppywm
leafpad /usr/local/bin/puppywm&

Here I entered the code an saved:

Code: Select all

#!/bin/ash
$1 &
while [ 1 ]
do
sleep 10000
done

Then edited the end of /root/.xinitrc like this:

Code: Select all

#exec $CURRENTWM
#v2.11 GuestToo suggested this improvement...
exec puppywm $CURRENTWM
#which $CURRENTWM && exec $CURRENTWM
#[ -x $CURRENTWM ] && exec $CURRENTWM
exec jwm

Now I exited X, and typed:
xwin
to check, that JWM starts as usual.

Then installed icewm:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=31835

Then restarted X from the JWM menu.
Now Icewm starts.

I open rxvt and type:
killall icewm
jwm &

Now jwm starts.

Now back to icewm:
killall jwm
I now must move the mouse outside rxvt, so that jwm exits.
JWM needs a focus change of a window, or will not exit.
In the code to kill jwm that I had posted, this is simulated by displaying another xmessage, this creates a focus change without moving the mouse.

Now I type:
icewm &

And icewm runs.
No restart of X is required.

Can you reproduce that so far?
If not: when does X exit on your system?
Mark

[PaulBx1]

I will throw in a few comments. (BTW, "Puppy Power" is a weird place to put this thread; I had trouble finding it.)

My impression in the past is that Puppy versions were typically left with too many unaddressed bugs before Barry went off in a completely new direction. I'm pleased that it looks like 4.1 is being groomed a bit more (we're getting 4.1.2 shortly) and I hope that trend continues, at least for some releases.

Could the arch linux model of releases (i.e., there are none) apply to Puppy? For example, the iso gets rebuilt every day, or something like that? I don't understand all the implications - far from it - but what I did understand looked pretty interesting to me.

Some mentioned getting rid of gparted. I'd really hate to see that go. It is one of the really solid and professional things about Puppy. At least make it available as a pet.

My sore spot (sorry if I sound like a broken record) is security. It's nice that encrypted pupsaves are available, but cryptoloop is "deprecated". Couldn't we move toward dmcrypt or loop-aes? Or at the very least, put whatever hooks into the compiled OS to make it easy to add those as pets? And we should have pets for gpg, scramdisk or truecrypt, enigmail, etc. Puppy is portable, which at least suggests a little more work to allow users to easily haul around their stuff on a flash drive without worrying about loss. It's like we're "almost there", but haven't taken the last step.

Mark has talked about internationalization. Seems like a good idea. He shouldn't have to spend so much time to get his derivative usable in Germany. He shouldn't have to reinvent the wheel every time he wants a basic OS upgrade for his derivative.

Backup is a pain. Computers should be used for ordinary, everyday, administrative tasks, stuff that people don't want to be bothered with. Backup is the perfect candidate! We shouldn't need to remind ourselves to reboot pfix=ram to copy a pupsave somewhere (that is a 1970's-vintage solution). Backup should happen in the background, without user intervention (except for initial setup) and be there if things go awry. I tried to set something like this up with pbackup in 4.1.1, but no go; it doesn't work from the command line.

I suppose these suggestions would be more for a 5.0. I do agree baby steps are needed first.

[zigbert]

I read this morning about the new approach to icewm, and became VERY upset and frustrated. I took a long trip in the mountains (cross country skiing) to calm down. Can anyone try to explain me in easy words what is so extremely good with icewm that it is worth 1.5-2.5 mb. Is it only the upper buttons and gradiented tray as I got explained last time I asked. I have not used icewm much, simply because I couldn't find the reason for it. Why not include Songbird, inkscape and k3b. They are all much more sophisticated than the Puppy alternatives.

If jwm is crashing, then we really should try to figure out why, and if we need an alternative wm, why not choose blackbox or any other mini solution. Icewm is the big brother, and will never be the alternative. - Jwm will be the logical alternative. And then, I don't see the point of putting any work in a new jwm desktop. I should discontinue my desktop work, and put my effort in something that matters. If you find enough arguments for adding icewm, it MUST be the preferred choice.

[J-Bob]

I read this morning about the new approach to icewm, and became VERY upset and frustrated. I took a long trip in the mountains (cross country skiing) to calm down. Can anyone try to explain me in easy words what is so extremely good with icewm that it is worth 1.5-2.5 mb. Is it only the upper buttons and gradiented tray as I got explained last time I asked. I have not used icewm much, simply because I couldn't find the reason for it. Why not include Songbird, inkscape and k3b. They are all much more sophisticated than the Puppy alternatives.

If jwm is crashing, then we really should try to figure out why, and if we need an alternative wm, why not choose blackbox or any other mini solution. Icewm is the big brother, and will never be the alternative. - Jwm will be the logical alternative. And then, I don't see the point of putting any work in a new jwm desktop. I should discontinue my desktop work, and put my effort in something that matters. If you find enough arguments for adding icewm, it MUST be the preferred choice.

Well, this is the first time i'm really saying anything involving 4.2. But i agree with zigbert with the fact that we could use some more functional applications over a new wm.

like InkLite, it's release number is about .1 behind current inkscape. and it might not be a bad idea to try and build a light inkscape of a somewhat later version, which could be helpful by having some bugfixes. i also have tried to use it on some newer svg files and they don't seem to like InkLite. And if JWM has problems involving crashes, perhaps obtaing the sources and working on it in-house might be a good solution, if anyone would be willing to take on that project.

but if we do choose icewm, i would suggest using a cutdown version like what ttuuxxx made. but doing a single release with jwm as well, and switching over to just icewm or jwm in the next release.

but possibly offering two isos after 4.2 might not be a bad idea. one with jwm and the other with icewm. like how puppy used to have an iso for seamonkey, dillo, and opera.

and it would be good to think about the size of the iso that will be released, and remember that when an sfs is made, it's compressed to about half it's size.

but i'll let you get back at working at building 4.2.

- J-Bob

[Lobster]

If jwm is crashing, then we really should try to figure out why

I would suggest that JWM looks good and has been stable for a long while. Normally I change the JWM settings to black with yellow text. Lately have just left it on default. Have been using that without incident for a couple of weeks - no crashes.

The problem with Icewm is when including themes and backgrounds, it adds space. The truth is (for me) having or not having two WM's makes very little difference. If Sigmund is upset then we may be moving in the wrong direction.

Happy Developers is important. The suggestion to take over JWM code development - if possible is a good one.

4.1.2 bug fix is out

[technosaurus]

this is generated by xdg to switch wm for the icewm menu & covers switching wm

menu "Windows" programs24 {
restart "Restart with Evilwm" mini-windows evilwm
restart "Restart with Fluxbox" mini-windows fluxbox
restart "Restart with Fvwm95" mini-windows fvwm95
restart "Restart with JWM" mini-windows jwm
restart "Restart IceWM" mini-windows icewm
restart "Restart IceWM-lite" mini-windows icewm-lite
restart "Restart with Pwm" mini-windows pwm
restart "Restart with Xfce4" mini-windows xfce4-session
prog "Restart X server" mini-x restartwm
}

[Auda]

My impression in the past is that Puppy versions were typically left with too many unaddressed bugs before Barry went off in a completely new direction.

That is why we use 109ce in this house its stable.
I like JWM The only thing that I would like is a different wallpaper for each desktop.

Auda

[WhoDo]

Can anyone try to explain me in easy words what is so extremely good with icewm that it is worth 1.5-2.5 mb. Is it only the upper buttons and gradiented tray as I got explained last time I asked.

No, it is the general ease with which it can be made to fit the user - Macpup is the classic example. That has a strong following as does EZpup (Icewm based updater) and a lot of the derivatives. Those who want a Windows XP lookalike can achieve a very realistic version (WinXP-Royale theme for example).

Bottom line is that around 50% (my guess only) of users install Icewm straight away, or prefer a puplet that uses Icewm.

Why not include Songbird, inkscape and k3b. They are all much more sophisticated than the Puppy alternatives.

Now, now! You KNOW we couldn't get along without Pburn for example. OSMO is far better suited to us than Songbird and there just aren't that many of us doing vector graphics.

if we need an alternative wm, why not choose blackbox or any other mini solution. Icewm is the big brother, and will never be the alternative. - Jwm will be the logical alternative.

There are a number of mini-solutions that are no better or no worse than JWM - even Fluxbox is a reasonable mini-wm, but probably not for our user base.

And then, I don't see the point of putting any work in a new jwm desktop. I should discontinue my desktop work, and put my effort in something that matters. If you find enough arguments for adding icewm, it MUST be the preferred choice.

I have stated many times that JWM is, and will remain, the default desktop for Puppy 4.2, so please don't discontinue your magnificent efforts to beautify that interface. IceWM is being considered as an included option for those that prefer that interface; that's all.

As for preference, I have no empirical data but my guess is the split in preference is about 50:50, and it would take a lot more than that to sway us toward Icewm as the default. It certainly won't happen in Puppy 4.2; that's a promise.

*Sigh* Now, can we get back to the business of collaborating to produce the BEST Puppy standard release ever? (no offense intended BarryK).

[WhoDo]

this is generated by xdg to switch wm for the icewm menu & covers switching wm

Yes, it is but unfortunately it just doesn't work very well. So much so that in all versions of EZpup I've had to disable these wm switching options from IceWM.

Getting from JWM to Icewm is easy. Getting back to JWM is problematic for unsophisticated users. I just want it to be easy to do, with no hassles or crashing of the X-server; otherwise it isn't worth doing at all.

[WhoDo]

I like JWM The only thing that I would like is a different wallpaper for each desktop.

My understanding is that currently can't be done in either JWM or Icewm. I don't know about Xfce, Fluxbox or E16 though. If that is truly important to you, consider upgrading to a Puppy that will accept and use the KDE sfs package.

[01micko]

sorry,$#@%! double!

[01micko]

I read this morning about the new approach to icewm, and became VERY upset and frustrated. I took a long trip in the mountains (cross country skiing) to calm down. Can anyone try to explain me in easy words what is so extremely good with icewm that it is worth 1.5-2.5 mb. Is it only the upper buttons and gradiented tray as I got explained last time I asked. I have not used icewm much, simply because I couldn't find the reason for it. Why not include Songbird, inkscape and k3b. They are all much more sophisticated than the Puppy alternatives.

If jwm is crashing, then we really should try to figure out why, and if we need an alternative wm, why not choose blackbox or any other mini solution. Icewm is the big brother, and will never be the alternative. - Jwm will be the logical alternative. And then, I don't see the point of putting any work in a new jwm desktop. I should discontinue my desktop work, and put my effort in something that matters. If you find enough arguments for adding icewm, it MUST be the preferred choice.

I first saw this post at 5:00am utc+10. Shortly after it was posted. I had no time then to respond, had to go to work. I have not read a post since then so I am replying now to what I first saw.
Zigbert, the work you have done in my humble opinion is exemplary. First class. I've commented before that it makes puppy look professional.
Jwm is quite functional, lightweight and looks just fine as a WM. We should stick with it. Icewem is cool, but why sacrifice 2 to 2.5MB for an extra WM? Seems silly to me. 2.5M could mean an enormous difference in extra functionality or as a saving for the folks on dialup.
Icewm is a great alternative but that is exactly what it should be. We only need fix up the 'official' version in the repo (see http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=35185.)

Ok, my 2c on the topic, fire at will.

PS. I use Icewm on both (soon to become more) of my puppy machines.

Now I'll go read the posts since.

[01micko]

this is generated by xdg to switch wm for the icewm menu & covers switching wm

menu "Windows" programs24 {
restart "Restart with Evilwm" mini-windows evilwm
restart "Restart with Fluxbox" mini-windows fluxbox
restart "Restart with Fvwm95" mini-windows fvwm95
restart "Restart with JWM" mini-windows jwm
restart "Restart IceWM" mini-windows icewm
restart "Restart IceWM-lite" mini-windows icewm-lite
restart "Restart with Pwm" mini-windows pwm
restart "Restart with Xfce4" mini-windows xfce4-session
prog "Restart X server" mini-x restartwm
}

So what we need is a simple (ie: gui) way to switch from Jwm(default) to any other installable wm (ok, maybe for 4.3, lol).
Puppy="can_do"