Phoenix CE and Lassie CE

[Pizzasgood]

Puppy 2.15ce brought up a message about shutting down properly and gave an option to continu booting X or dropping down to the command line. Just adding this feature brought about a complete shift in how the people at the centre viewed puppy. It was a system that held their hand and guided them along.

Glad to hear it was noticed and made a difference! I was kinda hoping it would catch on after that, but it seemed like most people were so busy looking at the superficial stuff they didn't know it existed. Now I'm cheered up though

[cb88]

yeah i have some friends that if they were dumped to a command line it might be a little confusing. not that they couldn't figure it out but it would make it hard for them to transition. why is it not in the standard puppy would be and excellent question. this is not a CE issue it should be in the STANDARD puppy

while i am thinking about it it would be nice if pizzasgood's boot splash were in 2.19 CE here: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=21204

will MUT 2.o make it in too?

[bostonvaulter]

I think that If we decide to go with IceWM or whatever window manager we should include/update the gui for it. It was nice that 2.15CE had a gui for IceWM but I think it could be much improved.

I also think that polish in general is something that is important to work on. 2.15CE was very good in this respect.

Jason

[Pizzasgood]

I haven't tested the bootsplash on a FullHD install, so I don't know if it works for that. Also, it only "splashes" if you're using the framebuffer (the vga=<number> parameter, with <number> being something other than normal) and I don't know if you can expect that to work across all platforms (maybe if you stick to low-res, but I don't really know at all).

If you tried it with some old machines and confirmed the low-res vga modes do work, and it doesn't fart all over a FullHD install, I'd be willing to port it to whatever init scripts the CE version uses. Unless I've already got the next version (with animation) done by then, in which case it will already be ported. I was hoping to get started today, but I wound up spending most of the day doing homework. I'm almost caught up now though, (I was behind because I couldn't get any textbooks until Friday )

[ecomoney]

Icewm would be an excellent window manager for the next CE as well, its light, easily customisable and it is familiar for people coming over from doze. One major problem with it however, is when the pup_save.2fs file gets full, it causes the desktop icons to disappear!!!! Personally I think a section should be added to the shutdown script to check for this and automatically resize the file or take some kind of remedial action.

I know people have their preferences and puppy makes them easy to add. Things like the bootsplash would add a lot of polish to the final product. Hope you get it ready in time pizzasgood.

[Lobster]

The Community Edition development structure is quite loose. Just as is Puppys.

I am pleased to say that Robert (Ecomoney) has agreed to be main developer for the "Talking Stick" Edition. I hope he will forgive me posting this part of a private message in which I asked if he was still interested in being chief developer . . .

Hi Lobster, thank you for the invitation. I am honoured to be asked, and happier to be able to take the opportunity this time. I believe through my experience through my work in the field I will be able to bring a lot of insight to the next community edition.

So with that in mind I pass the cyber talking stick to Robert. The idea of one co-ordinator / main developer works well for Barry and Puppy and the community editions and I hope for Ecomoney too

So please support Robert and Talking Stick in every way you can.


Robert has asked for a 'technical director'. If anyone would like to come forward that would be great. I take it that would mean being able to ask any technical questions that may arise?

Technical support will I hope, be available just by asking in this thread or on the wiki

I am hoping 2.18rc will arrive shortly and the final after that. All going well and dependent on Robert and our priorities, the first Alpha can then emerge.

Robert has suggested that we use Ezpup (that means Icewm) as the window manager for TS (Talking Stick) and I feel that is a worthwhile option that will allow us to work on the priorities until 2.18 arrives

What might those priorities be? If we can narrow them to three 'must have' features for the alpha that would be helpful. maybe a poll?

Do we have any news on the default web page?

meanwhile Barry has been working on . . .

'What I'm aiming for is getting all the base libraries in Puppy to match those in Slackware 12.0'
http://www.puppylinux.com/news/index.php

What are the consequences of this? This would seem to be a 2.20 facility? How do we plan to incorporate the ability to load and use Slackware programs? Should TS be based on 2.18 or wait for this later innovation?

[keithcleaver]

Do we have any news on the default web page?

I'm working on that, and should have a "beta" up at a URL I'll post here later. People can then make comments, and I'll make any changes nescessary.

Just for the record, it'll be loosely based on the 2.15CE page, with a few tweaks.

[richard.a]

Guys, I'm very enthusiastic about this one, and agree with just about everything that has been posted. Particularly Ecomoney's comments about the cafe and the lovely photo he showed of it in operation.

May I suggest you try to get Warren on board as the TD?

Failing which, while I don't have the background expertise that he and many others have, I'd be happy to assist in some sort of co-ordination and/or writing situation.

Just a plea, though... I spent hours trying hard to co-ordinate IceWM and JWM menus on 2.15ce, and it's pointless really (imho). Suggest if JWM stays in there, those who know about it can CLI switching back and forth. It is far too complicated and unnecessary a task for ab-initio users to become confused over One WM is all we need, providing we put all the tools there logically.

A spin-off from that seems to be the image in a more recent JWM puppy has become similar to the half dozen or so I tried with this project.

And something else I explored some months ago was a more logical menu structure (and the MS menu system IS logical - just because it came out of Redmond is no reason why we should ignore it, lol)


And yes, this was done in 2.02 days with JWM, but I post the image from my collection of captures. I also describe the philosophy of cascading menus in JWM here

There was a thread where I discussed working MS-style multiple-level cascading menus in JWM which I designed for an XP look-similar Puppy which didn't proceed, but I can't find where it is.

Background: I used to write handbooks for plant equipment control systems I had designed, and also wrote a monthly feature for a glossy CAD magazine here in Australia for some years.

Richard from Oz
Where none of the roads are yellow brick ones

[Lobster]

May I suggest you try to get Warren on board as the TD?

In a sense everyone can operate as technical director or let us say technical advisor if advice is required. I honestly believe that will exist if questions are posted.

Failing which, while I don't have the background expertise that he and many others have, I'd be happy to assist in some sort of co-ordination and/or writing situation.

You have a friendly and easy wrting style and I would suggest that the structure and ideas (just updated) here might be a start
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/TalkingStickContributors

There was a thread where I discussed working MS-style multiple-level cascading menus in JWM which I designed for an XP look-similar Puppy which didn't proceed, but I can't find where it is.

Possibly something here?
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/PuppyXP

PuppyPro (sadly) never emerged into a community edition . . .
However we seem to have a good impetus and support behind Talking Stick already

[keithcleaver]

OK, I have uploaded a "beta" version of the 2.19CE offline web page at :

http://www.geocities.com/martyrs_forever/index.html

Any suggestions, let me know.

Thanks.

[cb88]

since Lobster is going to put his addon pack in why not use icewm and just offer xfce4.4 as a package in prism

[ecomoney]

Icewm worked very well in 2.15ce and we should definetely continue to use it in Talking Stick. From what I have seen it is nearly as fast as jwm, but more customizable and more familiar for users coming over. Whodo has done some excellent work in theming it to look modern and attractive, which is one of the main initial put off's to new users compared to stock puppy.

One of the first things that a new user does when they first run puppy is try out the applications to which there are shortcuts on the desktop....and they get two of them!!! I know there is much debate about single vs double click to open programs associated with icons. Ubuntu (the most successful linux distro in terms of users and definetly something we could learn from) follows windows in the default being a double click, however, I believe that the next community edition of puppy can do better.

Guestoo came up with a script some time ago to wrap the launching of the application logic, so that whether the user single or double clicks, only one application get launched

Code: Select all

#!/bin/sh
# roxapp wrapper 0.0.1 - GuestToo - Feb 10, 2007

[ -r /tmp/descent22.lck ] && exit
> /tmp/descent22.lck;(sleep 3;rm -f /tmp/descent22.lck)&

DISPLAY_TIME=1

if which gxmessage > /dev/null
then
  gxmessage -timeout $DISPLAY_TIME -buttons "" -bg "#d0ffd0" -borderless -center -title "descent2" "
  descent2 is starting" &
else
  xmessage -timeout $DISPLAY_TIME -buttons "" -bg "#d0ffd0" -center -fn "10x20" -title "descent2" " descent2 is starting " &
fi

export MOZ_DISABLE_PANGO=1
export G_FILENAME_ENCODING=UTF-8

cd /usr/local/descent2/SDL && ./d2x-sdl -hogdir /usr/local/descent2 &

Puppy has to grab new users within the first ten minutes of them using it. Quite often this will be their first experience of linux. They will be testing out the FUD that certain Redmund based companies have put out about linux being totally different to use, and we must not back that up in the first ten minutes of trying puppy.

[Pizzasgood]

That sounds cool. I'll have to try it out myself before I'm sold, but I think it would today to one of the computer labs on campus I hadn't been to yet, and when I logged in I realized it was Red Hat rather than Windows. But when I clicked the app the teacher wanted us to try, nothing happened. It felt like getting into my car and pushing the gas, but not going anywhere. If it had been Windows, I would have double clicked naturally, and if it had been a normal Linux the one click would have sufficed. But having Linux use two clicks is just... unnatural. It causes me confusion, because then I don't know whether to expect one click or two. Like having British and American roads connected. Which side am I supposed to be on here? Or there? *crash* not this one I guess....

[2byte]

Some suggestions for making a friendlier Talking Stick for new Linux users.

1) Make sure all setup & utility windows can be seen at 800 x 600 resolution. Maybe even 640 x 480. A lot of users have small monitors and imperfect eyesight, they need to be able to see the full window. For example, the puppy desktop background chooser. The buttons on the bottom of the window are almost completely hidden at 800 x 600. Another one is Pmount when lots of partitions or USB devices are listed. There are more.

2) Replace the uXplor 2 pane file manager with XFE, pre-configured for two panes. It is much more useful and intuitive for new users.

3) Use a more logical xdg menu layout, just like Richard suggested.

4) Furnish a menu editor to make it easy to add or remove items and categories in the xdg menus.

5) Furnish one easy to use GUI for personalizing the appearance. Include video modes, resolution, background, screen saver, and themes. A user should not have to exit to the command prompt to change video settings.

[Lobster]

great suggestions - and the single/double click idea is good


The following pet plays one of four random sound files
(it should install in the / directory)

http://tmxxine.com/tstick/inspire.pet

The idea is as well as the initial woof-woof
we could play random welcomes or quotes or sounds
when starting talking stick

What do you think?

Notes
4 files are included
I think someone else created similar code?
"RANDOM=4" is the number of sound samples (change to 23 for 23 samples)
"repeat 3" can be left out for a single play

Code: Select all

#!/bin/sh

RANGE=4
number=$RANDOM
let "number %= $RANGE"

a='windchimes.wav'
b='seawaves.mp3'
c='stream.mp3'
d='stream2.mp3'

if [ "$number" = "0" ]; then
exec play $a repeat 3
fi

if [ "$number" = "1" ]; then
exec play $b repeat 3
fi

if [ "$number" = "2" ]; then
exec play $c repeat 3
fi

if [ "$number" = "3" ]; then
exec play $d repeat 3
fi

[cb88]

lobster could your script call tinysid? that would allow for many tunes of small size. the user should be allowed to configure it just like the background

[ecomoney]

Hi there, yes 800x600 is a must.

Most users accustomed to windows see 640x480 as being "Broken". It would give a better impression if the new pup started at 800x600x16 by default with xvesa, xorg being available off the menu. Also, blue screens with non graphical text on them make them very nervous!!!! How much work would it take to change the initial colour to something more friendly? I seem to remember isolating the command and blue is somehow compiled into it.

[Lobster]

OK, I have uploaded a "beta" version of the 2.19CE offline web page at :

http://www.geocities.com/martyrs_forever/index.html

Any suggestions, let me know.

Thanks.

thanks for updating
will you be doing more?
Will someone else carry on with your code

the box on the left make the text white so it shows up at low brightness
move the talking stick logo into the same box
make sure all the 'mores' in the table are on a line

[Lobster]

lobster could your script call tinysid? that would allow for many tunes of small size. the user should be allowed to configure it just like the background

Is tinysid compiled for Puppy? tested? What advantages/format does it have over 'play'?

My simple code calls mp3 and wav files - mp3 can be very small and the play command is already in Puppy. Do you have a source for small mp3 files?

[WhoDo]

3) Use a more logical xdg menu layout, just like Richard suggested.

Hi, guys. Looks like you are all moving full steam ahead toward a new CE for Puppy. Cool!

The xdg menu system is easily customisable to give the tiered layout that Richard suggests. All that needs changing is the /etc/xdg/templates/_root_.icewmmenu template file and any .desktop files that should include the new layout categories schema to have them moved over. rarsa is the key technical resource here.

4) Furnish a menu editor to make it easy to add or remove items and categories in the xdg menus.

This is quite feasible, too, but won't be usable anywhere else i.e. in mainstream Puppy or derivatives not based on the CE menu structure.

5) Furnish one easy to use GUI for personalizing the appearance. Include video modes, resolution, background, screen saver, and themes. A user should not have to exit to the command prompt to change video settings.

Some of that used to be possible in versions prior to 2.12 (I think?), but the video wizard was changed after that and the ability to change resolutions from the GUI when using Xorg simply disappeared. I have no idea why.

BTW, I started a new full time job, moved to a new home and got my 28 year old son married all in the last few weeks. That is why I haven't been around much. I'm still keeping EZpup updated ready for the 2.18 release and would be happy to have it included in Talking Stick by default, with some obvious omissions like a more limited number of themes, etc.

I'll try to keep in touch as much as possible, but the new job involves a fair degree of travel so I might not be as accessible as I have been before. Congratulations and commiserations to Robert on taking on the Project Leader role. I'll help out as much as I can, but if you want "technical" you won't do better than Pizzasgood or NathanF. They were our stalwarts on the 2.15CE project. Tronkel was also great on programming stuff, too!