What does it take to make computers more accessible to women

[puppyfan12]

I think MU had it right with his short and sweet answer. We just need to introduce some balance!

lol.

Seriously though, girls like to talk...and talk...and talk some more... Just look at the gaming scene. Any games with chatting or highly social atmospheres like MMPorgs such as The Sims Online are loaded with females. I've seen more females on the puppy forums than almost every other technical forum combined. I think a lot of it has to do with the puppy community being very social and generally having a more welcoming and friendly community than most FOSS 'RTM type' environments.

Of course I have a friend who lives in Kitchener who pretends to be a female online because he tends to get priority attention that way from the male dominated tech sector. haha he's such a lamer. I only mention him because there's no telling if it's REALLY a female even though the account appears to be owned by a female. (and no Rarsa isn't the guy from kitchener who poses as a female...even though he's from Kitchener also)

[Flash]

...I see tinkering with puppy to be similar to pigeon fancying, ham radio and model trains, things to be done by men (in majority) in the shed at bottom of the garden.

I think you've hit on an important point, the difference between tinkering for the sake of tinkering, and using a tool to get a job done. I suppose women in general just don't see the attraction of tinkering. Too bad. It is very much a solitary activity though, I suppose that's true. I mean the actual tinkering, not the talking about it with your buddies.

I've worked in a number of machine shops but only seen one woman machinist. I thought she was particularly good at it, too. I've always wondered why more women don't choose that kind of job. I suspect it's because most machine shops and factory floors are pretty grimy and dreary places, like in the movie Metropolis. Come to think about it, why would anyone want to work in one?

[amish]

I think you've hit on an important point, the difference between tinkering for the sake of tinkering, and using a tool to get a job done. I suppose women in general just don't see the attraction of tinkering. Too bad. It is very much a solitary activity though, I suppose that's true.

the howto pleia posted here actually addresses both these points, they're not necessarily accurate. i'm not going to be self righteous enough to start pulling quotes out of that article and paste them here in response, on some days i like to think my hypocrisy has limits, but maybe this will be the last time i mention the article and that's really worth reading.

i also never said anything to imply that women were incompetant in my other post, and i was disappointed to see what looked a lot like someone putting words in my mouth, but i didn't mention it because it looked more like (and still looks like) a simple misunderstanding.

[GeoffS]

Asked my wife about this - she said "Put the b------ power switch where I can reach it"
Geoff

[Flash]

Amish, I'm not sure I understand. I didn't mean to imply that you've said anything wrong or even politically incorrect. I was only talking about what HairyWill said. Let the discussion continue.

Geoffs, your wife's complaint was always mine too. Why is the b------- power switch for a computer hidden?

[kermitfan22]

Well... Rarsa and Amish asked me to read and respond to this chain.

First, let me just say, I am flattered that you "men" are concerned about a puppy that fits me.
Second, here's my disclaimer... I am NOT a typical woman. My hubby bought me a shotgun for my birthday 2 years ago, and I was thrilled. Along with that, I have been using Unix and Linux in various forms and for various reasons for 13 years. I am not a n00b, and I am not an upper level programmer. I am in the middle...

With that out of the way, let me answer a few questions and ideas from my view point.
Rarsa said:

So, what dos it take to make computers more accessible to women?

Let's broaden our outlook a bit... I think more accessible to anyone who is simply a computer operator, and not a tinker/geek is where we need to go. We need to make a system that works for people who are afraid to install software. (Yikes! A big job!)

HairyWill said:

Boys treat using a computer as a social activitiy.....

Well.. I hate to tell you this, Hairy, but so do I. Am I unusual... well.. judging from my observations at pogo.com, a popular java based game site, I'd say I'm not unusual. I would guess that 80% of the people I meet there every day are women. Most of them Mom's who want to speak to an adult.
Let's re-word your sentence to say something like "Boys treat working on their computer as a social activity..." and make it mean the same as working on your car to make it go faster...
Raffy said:

I guess it's more a type-casting (pre-defined role)...

I guess what I have to say here is... Type-casting happens for a reason. It's a generality, and we need to stop treating it like we expect every single person to be that way.Once we do that, we'll all stop worrying about stereo-types and type-casting. Blah.

I think Headfound's wife hit the nail on the head. Women want it to just work, they want to OPERATE it, not fix, program, or anything else with it. (in general)

As far as the whole "RTFM" the only time I find that rude is when they don't give me the darn link to the manual. I'm not a mind reader over here. Chances are I asked the question because I couldn't find the answer when I looked the first time around.

On the subject of being treated like a peer... personally, that is what I expect. I DO NOT expect preferencial treatment when I ask a question either here or in the irc. What I do expect is someone giving me their best shot at an answer. I know you are not the end-all be-all of knowledge, and personally, I'm willing to google till I find the answer. That is my personality type, and generally, I think my personality type is currently what is being attracted to puppy.. the type who are willing to fiddle a bit to get everything working.



In summary... women generally aren't searching for an alternative to windoze. I think that most of your women users are using because someone else in their lives set up the computer, showed them where all the things they wanted to use were located, and let them at it. I think your actual number of tinkering women is VERY low. Most of us don't post because we've searched and searched looking for the answer before we have to open our mouths.

Please, it's sweet that you think we should have our own wiki, but really... don't. Instead find out what it is that we like to use, answer the questions, and include it with the other general wiki. Installing Java was important to me because of the website I like to use. Correcting the java/flash crash in firefox 2.0 is CRITICAL to me.

But if there's one thing that I have to have, it's GAIM 2.0 or better. The one thing that I think women run into more than men is random people wanting to strike up a converstaion through GAIM. Some of the mediums in GAIM 1.5 list you as available for chat and searchable on a website. Consequently, when I use puppy, I get 5-6 pings a day from annoying people (not generally americans, I might add) who want to 'hook-up' with me. Gaim 2.0 fixes this problem. When I tried to install it in puppy, Gaim loads, and until I try and put my user name and password in, it's fine, then it crashes. GAIM 2.0 should be included in the newer releases of puppy.

There ya have it, the view from a female perspective.

Please feel free to ping me in the irc for clarification.

[amish]

Please, it's sweet that you think we should have our own wiki, but really... don't. Instead find out what it is that we like to use, answer the questions, and include it with the other general wiki. Installing Java was important to me because of the website I like to use. Correcting the java/flash crash in firefox 2.0 is CRITICAL to me.

But if there's one thing that I have to have, it's GAIM 2.0 or better. The one thing that I think women run into more than men is random people wanting to strike up a converstaion through GAIM. Some of the mediums in GAIM 1.5 list you as available for chat and searchable on a website. Consequently, when I use puppy, I get 5-6 pings a day from annoying people (not generally americans, I might add) who want to 'hook-up' with me. Gaim 2.0 fixes this problem. When I tried to install it in puppy, Gaim loads, and until I try and put my user name and password in, it's fine, then it crashes. GAIM 2.0 should be included in the newer releases of puppy.

i included the part about gaim so it didn't get lost in the shuffle...

"Please, it's sweet that you think we should have our own wiki, but really... don't." <- no no, wiki -page-

"Instead find out what it is that we like to use, answer the questions, and include it with the other general wiki."

yes, but i thought a wiki page might be good for just that. one central page for all women to put ideas that could be added to the wiki... it seemed slightly more likely than saying "hey come edit random pages of our wiki- whatever!" just a thought (this was when we were still flying blind without actual female feedback, too) as much as i hate new versions, the point about gaim is not easy to argue with...

[GuestToo]

if there's one thing that I have to have, it's GAIM 2.0 or better

ok, you could try this Gaim package:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=16215

[Nathan F]

One thing struck me as funny when I read the post that started this off. Actually, it always strikes me as funny, and is the cause of a lot of confusion and hurt feelings between the sexes. There was a remark about how women are usually better atmulti-tasking. Now before any men go up in arms, really think about it for a minute.

My wife can have multiple things going on in her mind at one time. She can carry on multiple conversations at the same time. When I try to talk to her she is often busy telling the kids what to do, going from room to room and picking up clothes, all sorts of things. It's really unfathomable for most guys because we tend to focus on one task until either it is done, or we lay it aside. And when I say focus, I mean the kind of focus that equates almost to tunnel vision. If my wife tries to invlovle me in a conversation while I'm typing I often don't even realize anyone is speaking to me, in fact I've developed a habit of stopping every thirty secons or so just to make sure she isn't glaring at me.

Now what this fact often does to confuse relations between the sexes is interesting. My wife is successfully doing and thinking about eight to ten different things at one time, including every word I say to her. Since I have absolutely no frame of reference to this, I used to think she was just ignoring me and that anything I had to say wasn't improtant to her anyway. That is until I realized that she had been hearing every word I had to say for years.

On the other hand guys, assuming you have a woman in your life, how often does she ask you what you are thinking? That is one of those favorite questions, because she wants to know what makes you tick and get that warm fuzzy feeling that the two of you have a great relationship because you are willing to tell her. How often does it happen that you were just daydreaming, or not really thinking of anything in particular? If you're like me that's more often than not. Unfortunately most women have no frame of reference to this concept because they can't imagine ever having their mind empty and devoid of all the hundreds of things that might normally be taking place there. So what happens? She gets insulted and mad that you aren't willing to let her in and share your innermost thoughts and feelings with her.

So men, understand that she's not just brushing you off (except that she might be, but you can't assume either way), and if she asks you what you're thinking you might occasionally just try to make something up . And women, if you ask him what he's thinking and he says "nothing", you can probably trust that he's telling you the absolute truth, scary as that might sound. Yes, we can turn it all off like that.

How does this all relate to computers and software? Well, it just relates to how we approach and solve tasks really. Men often get into that tunnel vision mode and give a task supreme concentration, working themselves nonstop until that project is done without any concept of how long it has taken. The tunnel vision is a good thing in some ways because obviously it translates into a lot of mental focus, but there are times we might miss the mountain because we're focused on the molehill. Women can often see the bigger picture with a lot more clarity because they can think effectively about more things at the same time. That is also a good thing. But they might see a situation where things are out of balance, without knowing exactly why because they are not looking at the individual bits in the kind of detail a man might.

Dangerous generalizations to make obviously, and there is an infinate amount of variation in human nature. But at least on some levelsI think the concept might help to understand how women and men think differently.

Nathan

PS - Unlike some computer nerds I'm married with children, three of whom are daughters, so this isn't coming from someone with no experience. I'm surrounded by females.

[kermitfan22]

Quote:
if there's one thing that I have to have, it's GAIM 2.0 or better

ok, you could try this Gaim package:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=16215

Tell me, did they fix the problem?? Did anyone other than me notice this problem? I noticed it on several different puppy installations.

When I tried to install it in puppy, Gaim loads, and until I try and put my user name and password in, it's fine, then it crashes. GAIM 2.0 should be included in the newer releases of puppy.

[/quote]

[GuestToo]

i don't know ... i just used the configuration files that i had already set up, so it knew all my accounts and buddies

i just tried it with a clean configuration folder (i renamed /root/.gaim) and i set up my Yahoo IM account, id and password, with no problems

[amish]

On the other hand guys, assuming you have a woman in your life, how often does she ask you what you are thinking? That is one of those favorite questions, because she wants to know what makes you tick and get that warm fuzzy feeling that the two of you have a great relationship because you are willing to tell her. How often does it happen that you were just daydreaming, or not really thinking of anything in particular? If you're like me that's more often than not. Unfortunately most women have no frame of reference to this concept because they can't imagine ever having their mind empty and devoid of all the hundreds of things that might normally be taking place there. So what happens? She gets insulted and mad that you aren't willing to let her in and share your innermost thoughts and feelings with her.

from talking with women i've been with, i know they do this as a geniune expression of compassion and concern, and i appreciate that. however, you should not ask questions when you do not want the answer, and if you ask a question and the answer is not something you can handle emotionally, because you are insecure about it -and everyone male and female is insecure about something. the most common insecurity for males? probably size... women? well, let's just say that men never ask "do these trousers make my genitals look small?" but i totally blame society for putting real women up against caricature-like images of women's bodies. give me a plus-size model, really. more realistic than kate moss, no offense. almost every day i walk by a picture of a really beautiful plus size model, and smile, because it's always the same model (they change the sign but it's always her) and she's just great. and she looks like a real person, unlike most models.

anyway, so i refuse to let someone put me in a position where over and over she asks me to say something that might be hurtful. i mean "what are you thinking about?" seems innocuous enough. but then if she's going to be sad because she wanted me to be thinking about a particular thing (and the odds are against it) and it's going to (needlessly) make her sad, yeah i'm not going to make something up. but i will refuse to answer. and it takes a LOT of nerve to refuse. but i see such a line of questioning (to the end of being disappointed as a rule) to be a well-intentioned abuse of the question. and if that question is abused, i will simply remove its ability.

i like to connect with a person, not just be superficial and chatter idly (i love idle chatter too, of course, but not as a rule that's never broken.) and i like to be honest and open, but i do it on my terms. after all, at the end of the day, she's a person, i'm a person, and i don't want to control her life or have her control mine. and that's not an easy thing to express. but if you really insist, and it really matters to you, you will find someone (eventually) that allows you that. so instead of being pried open by force, i let her open me up by honoring my terms, and the result of not abusing the question means: she doesn't have to ask. i am happy to tell her when i'm thinking about her, and it makes more sense to me, and it gives her less to be (needlessly) unhappy about. the real question: does it work? ha, not with everyone. it really works in theory... in practice there is plenty of evidence, but the best indicator is time. it takes being patient enough to find someone who is extremely special. if you're already married, do it with humor. and watch your back and i didn't tell you anything.

[rarsa]

I've developed a habit of stopping every thirty secons or so just to make sure she isn't glaring at me.

I thought it was just me!.

I call it serially multitasking. As oposed to multitasking in parallel.

The answer to the question "what are you thinking" is even worst when you are not thinking about what they are telling you. (because you already had your mind in a different issue).

It is funny because at work I usually prefer a women managers. Besides being better at multitasking, they also seem to know better when to cut a discussion that has been going for too long. We (men) seem to be more selfconscious about being rude and cutting a conversation and more prone to get into the details that may not matter to half the people in a meeting. I learned some time ago to say "let's talk about it off line" but it didn't come naturally to me.

[HairyWill]

I've developed a habit of stopping every thirty secons or so just to make sure she isn't glaring at me.

I thought it was just me!

Ahh but by that time its too late.

women and computers
Seriously, I don't think computers really need to be made more accessible to women, any more than they do for black people, or one legged homosexuals. Generally all users want a computer that 'just works'. With the exception of the few twisted individuals (myself included) that hang about in online forums looking for broken software and that which could be made better. So, we should continue to strive to make puppy just work for the benefit of ALL personkind.

women and the puppy community
Much of the linked material in this thread is discussing the experience of women in communities of computer tinkerers that are mainly male. It is somewhat understandable that they standout out, though they should not be discriminated against or harassed (everyone has a right to expect that).

In general I think this community is welcoming to all newcomers and they get treated fairly by longstanding members. We do have a number of occurances of newcomers appearing to be rude to our community. Sometimes this might be because of cultural misunderstandings. As a whole rude posters are given civilised responses until someone suggests that they might behave differently. There are occasions when I think people are too quick to anger, they might consider not saying anything for 24 hours, there's always the chance that the problem might go away or that OP might apologise.

There is a separate issue of the occasionally more heated debates that take place. These are almost always old sparing partners squaring up for a brawl and tend not to pick on new members. Some people join in, others throw in the odd punch to keep things going or help out their side, others may stand on the side lines and enjoy watching, some shake their heads and others get angry. It is a shame that these events show up in a list of recent postings. It is a bit like going to a bar and seeing people fighting in the street outside, I wouldn't want to go in for a quiet drink and I'm sure my wife/mother/sister wouldn't. Maybe we need a back room or a 'fight club' to allow these testosterone fueled activities somewhere to evaporate.

Don't get me wrong I'm strongly in favour of debate and healthy argument. If you are going to make unsubstantiated claims then you should be asked to justify them.

We all need to remember that some people take it personally and get offended more easily and our female members probably have much more chance of falling into this category than our male members.

[kermitfan22]

Just two things:

Will, very well said.

I never ask "honey, what are you thinking", I learned a long time ago that I don't really want to know the answer, anyway. I ask more guided questions like "Do you think we should fix the furnace or buy a new one?" Gives him the chance to snap out of what ever train his thought is on (even if it's sitting at the station waiting to move).

[Nathan F]

I never ask "honey, what are you thinking"

Men sometimes train women also...

Nathan

[Flash]

Is that related to creative incompetence? (the fine art of screwing up just badly enough that you're never asked to do it again.)

[cobelloy]

well, for a thread about women and computers there has been a lot of responding by men!!

surely there are more than just a few of us girls who are interested?

i first tried linux about five years ago, with mandrake 9.2 and it was pretty crap, but despite that I recieved plenty of kind help via forum and irc and managed to get a win/linux crossover network to work, and a dual booting win98/linux computer to work

however the linux was not that useful and I didnt try it again until ubuntu came out

after trying to make ubuntu be useful on an old p2 by reducing it to icewm with idesk i discovered puppy, but did not stick with it as it only had vesa then.

when puppy included the xorg video drivers i really switched to it properly

what i find off-putting:

1) asking a question on an irc tech channel and getting the following answers:
-try googling it (because i already have if im in an irc channel)
-rtfm (without a link to the manual - like kermitfan said)
-or any variation of a statement of question asking ettiquitte

2) people telling me that all i need to do is put the time into it and then I will work it out myself, because i am busy, I have a household to run, a 3yo child I look after on my own - most of the time (my husband works away for two weeks at a time), lots of animals to tend to, a job and the remnants of a life

3) gui's that sacrifice a great deal of sparkle for a little bit of extra speed (one ofthe first things I do with puppy is replace jwm with icewm or xfce, and rox with 2.5 - i believe 2.13/14 have rox 2.5 already)

I have just given one of our old laptops to my mum with puppy installed, she is not even the slightest bit interested in operating systems and their workings, all she cares about is that it starts when you click the on button, and once its on you can send emails, talk on msn and skype, write and print letters, and play with photos, she cares not if it is windows or linux, or for that matter if it fast or slow

for men wanting ordinary women to use linux and not windows, remember they probably dont care either, all they need is someone to set it up ready to use and they will use it

how do you make computers more accessible to women? well I think you dont, women know where computers are, i may as well say how do I make big shopping malls more accessible to men?

[jason.b.c]

Wich chat room..? #puppylinux-<ending> or ##puppylinux

what i find off-putting:

1) asking a question on an irc tech channel and getting the following answers:
-try googling it (because i already have if im in an irc channel)
-rtfm (without a link to the manual - like kermitfan said)
-or any variation of a statement of question asking ettiquitte

As well as - Being told:

this is ##pupplinux , not #<certain chat room for my system> .!

hey , go to #<again , that certain chat room> and start talking about puppy linux and see how you are treated there..!

<specific screen name> slaps her ignore button on <my screen name>

Now back on topic...

i may as well say how do I make big shopping malls more accessible to men?

Put a 69 Camaro SS in the lobby entrance...

[Billwho?]

i may as well say how do I make big shopping malls more accessible to men?

Put a 69 Camaro SS in the lobby entrance...

Sorry Jason that wont't make them more accessable but it will make them more appealing, much more appealing