@pigshed: Not that I want to discourage your comments (which are clearly thoughtful and so very welcome), but I'd like to try and keep this thread as separate as possible from other threads. I would like this thread to be solely for the discussion of the benefits and drawbacks of
formally working together as a community. I know that things have been difficult so far for Puppy and it's tempting to just think "come on guys let's just get on with something", but here on this thread, it will be just as much a success if 'nothing' gets resolved. This is a place where we can just talk without any urgency to solve or achieve anything. This isn't an official meeting.
So may I ask what you think about the difference between; working together formally, therefore with rules that each member signs up to and must follow if they are to remain members, and working informally together, without any clear community consensus/values/direction where anyone can do whatever they want whenever they want? There's clearly advantages and drawbacks to both sides, at the moment it seems we are more heading towards the latter, informal approach, because it's just so much easier to get things done this way! Which is fine
However,
personally I am very weary of this approach, as it will be hard to coordinate any real direction and raise any measure of resources towards the formidable challenge of creating a piece of software that controls something as complex as a modern computer.
@ttuuuxx: I appreciate how difficult it can be to receive criticism, but your response is utterly inappropriate and fails to demonstrate any desire to arrive at a common understanding. What ever alienjeff feels or says he does not deserve to be humiliated, I know you didn't mean it literally but,
he is not a troll.
Please could you try and stay on topic; do you not have any answers to the the questions I posed to you in my last post?
@Lobster: Please don't take this the wrong way, but could you try and stay on topic also. I'm not trying to implement the Coop structure with this thread, but more trying to provide on opportunity to discuss the facts, however obvious and self evident, about working together as a community. What are your own thoughts about the benefits/drawbacks of formality/informality in the community? Of course I get the impression that you lean more towards informality, but do you have any opinions/reasoning that underpins that preference? Does Barry's lack of interest in these issues make formality seem less feasible?
@Aitch: I thought we were still sounding out co-op community er teamwork, & whether we could - here on this forum
Thank you
Could you just clarify your previous post a bit though, I'm not quite sure what you were suggesting by
to allow a fair proportion of people to read and absorb..... .
@BarryK: I know that you haven't had much to do with any of the discussions about the future of Puppy here on the forum, but I would just like to appeal to you to try and give it a bit more attention. By this I am absolutely not suggesting that you should try and take more of a leader role and 'hold our hands' into Puppy's new life. Rather what I am suggesting is a re-evaluation of the social role of community in the technical creation of an operating system. And therefore a little more transparency regarding your feelings towards community and specifically the Puppy Community.
Of course Puppy would simply not exist if it hadn't have been for you, but equally Puppy would, without question, not be what it is today without the community that have so keenly offered feedback, testing, development, enthusiasm and support. The community is not just a bonus,
it is as integral to the operating system as the kernel. Therefore, is it not logical to give it
as much attention as the kernel? You can never compile and patch the perfect kernel, nor can you ever participate in a perfect community, but neither is good enough reason not to try your best.
Participation in a community is not about saintly altruism, about offering the correct answer every time, about always liking everyone, it is rather about one's sincere intention towards these things. If you feel that communities are just not your thing, then that's not a failure, however, neglecting to express this can cause all kinds of misinterpreted signals and ambiguities. If it hasn't been expressed publicly, then has it been expressed privately? And to whom? Are we valued? Are our efforts appreciated? Are our concerns and advice welcomed? Have we done something wrong? Of course these are purely hypothetical questions, but they are the potential 'bugs' of community life.
As I say, I'm not suggesting that you provide the answers
we want to hear, but rather acknowledge and demonstrate the significance of
attending to them. I for one, and I know I speak for a lot of people, sincerely wish you the best, in whatever you do, and thank you deeply for your down-to-earth approach to computing. And I'm pretty sure that you feel the same about us. So, in the same way that you have asked and benefited from the feedback we have given you over the years, we are asking for some feedback from you over our efforts to create a working Puppy community. Of course, it doesn't have to be un-reflective, "yes, your doing great", it can simply be, "I'm as uncertain as you guys! I'm sorry I can't be more help but I'm impressed by your efforts, keep it up, I'll help where I can."
Thanks,
tom