ChurchPup Alpha Discussion

[KF6SNJ]

WhoDo,

Those look really great. Bravo Zulu on a job well done. I especially liked the CityLife one. It has a certain subtleness to it. Cool.

[cb88]

IMO all the big addons should be developed as sfs modules and uploaded then they can be mounted and copied into a single folder then that folder can be rebuilt as an sfs to make full blown churchpup

I just remastered teenpup this way by mounting pup_214.sfs and copying its contents to a folder then also copying the contents of devx_214.sfs so it now has Gcc also then removed the old pup_214.sfs from the iso with isomaster that is already in puppy and added in the new pup_214.sfs

the contributions such as the latest wine or java or whatever should be available to all puppy users not just churchpup as that goes I would like to remaster teen pup with the bible apps....

It may be even better to package these packages as .7z files since they have very good compression and then repackage them client side so you could implement a super puppy remaster system on par with nimblex linux. another reason to package as .7z is that .sfs files use up loop devices when you mount them so far I have no idea how to get these back after unmounting so I can only mount a couple before having to reboot so i can mount more....

personally I would like to see an ncurses based bible app without java or anything call it picochurchpup... its all about spreading The Word

[Subito Piano]

I agree that anything created for ChurchPup should definitely be made available through the regular Puppy pages to all users -- once the add-ons are thoroughly tested.

I know that we could create a minimal ChurchPup (Lite version) and leave it at that, letting users download and install sfs files or dotpets, etc. I like the idea of TWO churchpups, both full-size and lite. My thinking is always to accommodate (and attract) the new linux user. I also want to have two choices "ready-to-go" on a live CD for those who don't know how to remaster, and honestly don't have enough time to learn how to do it.

I think in this way we will be able to kindle interest from those who have never tried anything but Windows as well as accommodate the seasoned linux regulars--not to mention enabling the use of older equipment, assisting those with limited funds, and all the usual Puppy benefits.

It was pointed out to me that probably the "lite" should have come first, then the full-size. It's a good point! Alas, it's a little late. Probably no lite before January 1 at the earliest...

[cb88]

agreed what i was aiming at is a lot of people myself included will not want to use church pup all the time but would rather remaster say bibledesktop into thier own puppy.....

the full iso is also ideal for churches and I think it is a good idea I in no way meant that only remastering should be offered (yes i realize you didn't say that just restating) but it is an essential option for the functions in churchpup to actaully be taken up and used

as you already know I highly dislike bloat like java and wine even though there isn't a better option

the fact is that a generic bible program that is written in c (maximum portablity and cleaness of code....but perhaps even a bash script would even be adequate...) with minimal dependancies and console gtk or sdl output is needed...

[KF6SNJ]

the fact is that a generic bible program that is written in c (maximum portablity and cleaness of code....but perhaps even a bash script would even be adequate...) with minimal dependancies and console gtk or sdl output is needed...

You have a valid point. The problem is that most of us may want something that is capable of using the pre-existing sword modules rather than having to create our own (though I may have to do this anyway for the Theologia Germanica). The question then becomes how do we create a program that will fill that need without using java? What if we want to compare multiple translations and/or languages? Concordances? Lexicons? While a casual Bible study may not require such tools, a serious Bible scholar, pastor, or seminary student will. It takes quite a few references to write a report about a topic of scripture or to write a sermon, which I have done both. A generic console Bible parsing tool won't suffice in such a situation. Again, it boils down to need. Very few programs are available that can fill this need. I will state plainly that a console based program would likely not work for my needs.

[WhoDo]

I especially liked the CityLife one. It has a certain subtleness to it. Cool.

Yes, that's my favourite too. It conveys the message while leaving so much open to personal interpretation as the spirit is moved. Just like the Word, really.

Cheers.

[Subito Piano]

Christopher, you are right -- and so is cb88! IF we could get a Bible program sans java and wine, that might be perfect for the Lite version. The full version would be, well, FULL!

FWIW, i have a copy of the NASB Quick Bible. I simply open it as text and have basic search functions available. I also have Bible Time but use online Bibles the most.

Also - any good thoughts on how to reduce the memory usage without sacrificing needed programs? (Heh, heh -- i say this but i'm not the one doing the work on the full version! )

Seriously, if anyone sees a way to cut the fat please post it here.

[LOF]

Right first of, WhoDo thanks for all those screenshots and ideas. They really are awesome. Thanks for your suggestions, I'll leave it open to the community to decide what they like and dislike. Does anyone have a preference towards any themes/backgrounds? (BTW I agree, Citylife is nice)

As to the future style of ChurchPup production:

Maybe the end goal will be to have:
- A full blown ChurchPup iso (aimed at actual Churches and power users)
- A light/lite ChurchPup iso (aimed at your everyday Christian with average/older machine)
- Individual packages for each program in ChurchPup
- An SFS with all ChurchPup addons (ie everything added that wouldn't be in normal Puppy)
- An SFS with all christian addons (ie just the christian programs)

We're sorta doing a number of these already (packages/full-blown)

This would allow a huge variety of different options to those interested.

They could:
- Add ChurchPup or Christian programs to their existing Puppy
- Go from scratch either big or small
- Just add programs they like/want

Hopefully that makes sense. This is just me talking BTW, I haven't talked to my team yet.

[37fleetwood]

believe it or not I'm still here I downloaded the alpha and really like it. I am not a seminary student nor a pastor of a church but I do apreciate having the ability to get to the bottom of some semi advanced lines of inquiry. I have a newer computer and would rather have the option to get a full boat iso rather than going the more modular way. I also apreciate the need to make an iso compatible with smaller more limited systems. personally I wouldn't mind too much if the full iso pushed into the dvd range as long as good stuff were being added . I just apreciate that you guys are willing to put this together for guys like me who don't know too much about doing this kind of work.
May God richly Bless your efforts!
Scott

[cb88]

what exactly does a sword module consist of anyway? I assume it is just a text file or a database with an index I see no reason why it could not be accessed with a program written in practically any language. Even if it is a binary file that could be figured out....

[KF6SNJ]

what exactly does a sword module consist of anyway? I assume it is just a text file or a database with an index I see no reason why it could not be accessed with a program written in practically any language. Even if it is a binary file that could be figured out....

Each module has three files. For example, the Book of Concord has concord.bdt, concord.dat and concord.idx. Yes, you could attempt to open them with AbiWord or another text program, but it may not appear very meaningful (most of it looked like gibberish, but I was able to read the words "three ecumenical creeds"). However, if you would like to create a cli based application to use a sword module, you have a lot of work ahead of you. I don't quite understand how the program accesses the modules so that what we see it readable. Honestly, I am happy just to have a tool that already works.

[Subito Piano]

I'm probably talking myself into doing the lite version. Hmm....

Maybe it should be called ChapelPup!

If i do, i'll need some help. First off, what is a good lightweight Bible study program? If Wine is a resource hog, then the Bible program has to be native Linux. I think that something with basic search functions and the ability to add several translations would be good. If would can keep memory usage down and have dictionaries, etc., so much the better.

My thinking on a Lite version is not so much the CD size but the memory/CPU usage. In other words, i think it's OK to have 200 MB on the CD BUT i want to keep the memory needs down to the traditional Puppy limit of 128MB, able to run on a P-II or maybe even a P-I without dogging it! (OK, OK, terrible pun there...)

Any thoughts?

[klu9]

"if wine is a resource hog"

I'm no expert, but I don't think WINE can be a resource hog; remember it stands for "WINE Is Not an Emulator".

It doesn't consume resources, it just provides a compatibility layer for Windows programs. The amount of resources consumed depends on the Windows app and the operating system.

I even remember reading somewhere that people had measured Windows programs running faster in WINE on some distros than in Windows itself.

But I may be wrong.

[Subito Piano]

P.S. regarding Bible software for the lite version-- Puppy 3 is, of course, slackware-compatible. Does that give us access to a lightweight program? For instance, there are a couple listed here. I have no experience with Slackware packages in Puppy but am willing to try -- however, if someone has already done this, a little guidance is welcome! Basically, i've only used Bible Time in Linux (and e-sword in Windoze); mostly i go to online sources such as BlueletterBible and BibleGateway.

Again, the goal is speed and older equipment; the regular ChurchPup, not lite, is for a complete set of packages.

Thanks!

[KF6SNJ]

I tried the gslapt package for puppy. Yes, the slackware apps worked, but unfortunately, it made other packages that I had installed using either the pet installer or dotpups not work. I wound up having to completely reinstall puppy to fix everything. To me, it wasn't worth it. I don't believe that directly using slackware packages on puppy is the best of ideas. It would probably be better to port over what we can and leave it at that. Such being the case, we already have several viable bible study tools that readily available. Also, ChurchPup doesn't need to be too big to begin with. I would say not more than about 250Mb, and even that may seem a bit large. We really should keep it simple.

[Subito Piano]

I thought i'd post this here because it's been a friendly group and represents a lot of experience and knowledge.

I could not load either the alpha or the beta ChurchPup on my regular machine.  It ran fine (although slow) on our old Pentium-II with a 350 clock speed and 192MB of RAM. But on my main computer with an AMD (athlon?) 1GB clock and 384MB RAM, fuggetaboutit!

I got the following error every time i loaded using pfix=ram:

kernal panic - out of memory & no killable processes

trying other boot methods gave other messages such as:

run fsock is recommended (something like that)

and:

fixing recursive fault but reboot is needed
(rebooting did nothing)

also:

process hotplug (pid: 21871, ti=d6336000
tash=c13a1030 tastti=d6336000)
stack (followed by a series of numbers)
fixing recursive fault but reboot is needed
unconfs, do delay copyup of "utmp"

The ONLY way i got it to boot was by first booting up on the old computer, saving  the pup_save file to a USB stick, then plugging the stick in on my main computer and rebooting -- and even that was whacked when it came up.  I tried pfix=purge with a pup_save file and even deleting all my old pup_save files from every partition--then it brought the ghost of an old one back up and loaded it---?!?!??!??! This all represents a few hours of work....

So i thought, is my computer going?  I have a good CD-drive to boot from but the CD-RW drive is apparently not working (for the past two weeks), plus for that long i've had to warm up the computer for five minutes or so before the video works correctly -- in other words, i boot up and the screen is a disaster, so i wait five minutes and then hit the reset button. Maybe the motherboard is freaking out?? -- but other Puppies load just fine. I burned one ChurchPup beta CD on an external burner and one on another computer altogether using two different downloads (i checked the md5, etc.) and tried booting from both--same results! What gives??

My only hypothesis: i recall Barry mentioning that the 3.01 Puppy had two versions -- the first release was based on the newer kernel and some users reported problems with it, so he released a second version with the older kernel.  Perhaps the ChurchPup beta is built on the newer kernel and my machine can't handle it? But i recall using the Puppy 3.01 CD with the newer kernel without problems. Maybe my memory is wrong. (Mark, do you remember which kernel you built ChurchPup on?)

Well, such is my experience.  What do you make of it?  Any thoughts/suggestions?  Did the beta boot for you all?  

Thanks -- !

[KF6SNJ]

I am running ChurchPup as my full time Puppy OS now. Only problem is that I have to run the ALSA sound wizard everytime as it does not seem to save my previous settings. Also, USB audio doesn't seem to work either. Small things really. So far so good.

[PrairieDog]

It ran fine (although slow) on our old Pentium-II with a 350 clock speed and 192MB of RAM. But on my main computer with an AMD (athlon?) 1GB clock and 384MB RAM, fuggetaboutit!

Good morning Subito!

I'm sorry for your Grief.
Reading the descriptions of your two systems I would have guessed Churchpup would have Never run on your pentium-II. (and just barely on the ADM)
I tested it on my wifes computer that has a 3 ghz celeron and 512 megs of ram and got the same message ( kernal panic - out of memory & no killable processes )

I restarted after plugging in a usb flash drive with a swap partition on it and it worked. So I'm going to say 512 megs +swap is going to be a minimum.

Have you had a chance to try smaller iso yet?

My only hypothesis: i recall Barry mentioning that the 3.01 Puppy had two versions

Should I try building this with the older kernel? just a thought ,maybe we should wait for more feed back.


Good morning KF6SNJ!

Glad you're having some success at last. I have a couple of questions, did you have these sound problems with regular puppy 301 or any previous version? and could you post some specs for your puppy machine? Just megs of ram and swap or no swap is all I'm curious about.

Gentlemen, have a good day,


The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear?

Mark

[KF6SNJ]

I have 12289Mb of swap enabled. I went back to my AMD Athlon XP 1800+ running at about 1536Mhz. My sound card that I am using is a Sound Blaster Live 16. The emu10k1 works, but I have to enable/configure it every time. I did not have this issue on Puppy 2.17.1 or 3.00. However, if that is my only problem, and I am using the 3.01 Alpha 2, then I am doing quite well all things considered.

[PrairieDog]

Hello,
Thanks for Church pup, but without PPPoE i like many others cannot access the internet. did you leave this out or have i missed it.

Michael an eccentric English gentleman.

P.S I am running 301a seamonkey to write to you.

Oh No!! I forgot PPPOE. Just an oversight,Michael,and I'm glad you caught it. I guess you really couldn't miss it if you use pppoe!

The pet package at Ibiblioftp://ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributio ... tched2.pet
should install OK but I'll check it out as soon as I get a chance. (Getting ready for work right now)

I will rejoice in the God of my salvation

Mark