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 Forum index » House Training » Beginners Help ( Start Here)
Solved: Amazing Idea
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memo

Joined: 28 Jun 2018
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Wed 18 Jul 2018, 16:40    Post subject:  Solved: Amazing Idea  

Hi all,

first of all, forgive any mistake in the used term as I am just a beginner and by no mean a prof.

That being said, I have been testing many puppies on my old machine and I have found that the puppy 5.2.8 works the best, especially with internet apps like Firefox, maybe because it is an old version and does not require a lot of resources. Anyway, I have this idea, just connect this version of puppy with Ubuntu last LTS repos, that way I can keep everything super fast and just use the latest version of the apps that doesn't require internet connection, like libreoffice. in other words, I don't want to change the kernel ( from what I read it seems an important component and its current versions make my system very slow, although I have no idea what is it precisely:)) . maybe as well make it to the latest slako version.

I hope that some one would be kind enough to make how to videos,because these tech things seems very complicated when described by writing Smile. Making these video may help in understanding how to develop future puppies which would also be beneficial for the community as a whole.

Thanks all in advance Smile

Last edited by memo on Thu 19 Jul 2018, 05:35; edited 1 time in total
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 11143
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Wed 18 Jul 2018, 20:41    Post subject:  

It is not that simple.
That version of Puppy is already set to access the Ubuntu repositories, that it is compatible with.

Puppy Package Manager(PPM) has it all setup to access repositories, that have software compiled to work in that Puppy version.
PPM>Configure>Update Database should be run before looking for programs in PPM.
That is how PPM knows about changes to the repositories. New software, updates, etc.......

With Puppy, when stuff in Puppy core files and Linux core files change too much. That is when a new version of Puppy is developed and released.
Ubuntu based Puppies order of development:
Puppy 5.2.8 ->Ubuntu Lucid
Tahrpup 6.0.5 ->Ubuntu 14.04 Trusty Tahr
Xenialpup 7.5 ->Ubuntu 16.04 Xenial Xerus

What you ask about, has already been done, by going to a newer Puppy version, that used Ubuntu repositories for core Linux programs.

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When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
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Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Wed 18 Jul 2018, 20:57    Post subject:  

There are a lot of Puppy videos on YouTube.
Just do a search for what you are looking for.
Always have puppy linux in the search question.

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When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 4255
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Wed 18 Jul 2018, 21:31    Post subject:  

bigpup wrote:
Ubuntu based Puppies order of development:
Puppy 5.2.8 ->Ubuntu 10.04 Lucid Lynx
Precise 5.7.1 ->Ubuntu 12.04 Precise Pangolin
Tahrpup 6.0.5 ->Ubuntu 14.04 Trusty Tahr
Xenialpup 7.5 ->Ubuntu 16.04 Xenial Xerus


You missed one out, mate..... Very Happy

-------------------------------------------------

Having discovered Will McEwan's Wex screencaster, I hope to be tackling some 'how-to' vids at some point in the near future. (Don't be expecting Hollywood-style post-production quality, though..!!)


Mike. Wink

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memo

Joined: 28 Jun 2018
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul 2018, 04:17    Post subject:  

bigpup wrote:
It is not that simple.
That version of Puppy is already set to access the Ubuntu repositories, that it is compatible with.

Puppy Package Manager(PPM) has it all setup to access repositories, that have software compiled to work in that Puppy version.
PPM>Configure>Update Database should be run before looking for programs in PPM.
That is how PPM knows about changes to the repositories. New software, updates, etc.......

With Puppy, when stuff in Puppy core files and Linux core files change too much. That is when a new version of Puppy is developed and released.
Ubuntu based Puppies order of development:
Puppy 5.2.8 ->Ubuntu Lucid
Tahrpup 6.0.5 ->Ubuntu 14.04 Trusty Tahr
Xenialpup 7.5 ->Ubuntu 16.04 Xenial Xerus

What you ask about, has already been done, by going to a newer Puppy version, that used Ubuntu repositories for core Linux programs.



I donot know if you get me clearly, let me give an example, in windows xp I can install any version from any app, however this is not the case in linux ( to my understanding), when the repo stop provide the updates then that is the latest version fro that distro. but what is this distro work fine and we just need to connect it to a newer version of the repo.
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Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 4255
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul 2018, 05:02    Post subject:  

@ memo:-

memo wrote:
I donot know if you get me clearly, let me give an example, in windows xp I can install any version from any app, however this is not the case in linux ( to my understanding), when the repo stop provide the updates then that is the latest version fro that distro. but what is this distro work fine and we just need to connect it to a newer version of the repo.


We do get you clearly.....although I rather get the impression that you've completely 'missed' what Puppy is really all about!

You're talking about the famous Windoze backwards compatibility. What you have to remember is that the whole issue becomes very much more complicated on this side of the fence, due to the sheer number of different versions of Linux.....every one of which has tried to do things slightly differently to all the others.

For each release of Windoze (until 10, that is), there has only ever been one version. Everybody's 'singing from the same hymn-sheet', y'see.

It's never been the case with Linux....well, not with Puppy. It does things in its own unique way. If you want regular updates, regular upgradeability, the ability to always be able to run the very newest version of something (which to my mind, is a fool's errand; if it ain't broke, why 'fix' it?), then you need one of the mainline 'rolling releases', like Arch Linux. The instant a new version of anything is released, Arch makes it available to all its users.....

You still need to choose to install it, though.

----------------------------------------------------

Puppy doesn't regularly update for one simple reason. Updates often stop things from working; something that used to work, suddenly doesn't. And Puppy is designed to keep old hardware 'alive', and useful...

Think about it.


Mike. Wink

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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 12839
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul 2018, 11:54    Post subject:  

Hello memo, Mike_Walsh.

For the record, there exist a category of Linuxes which are designed to
upgrade automatically. They are called "rolling-release" Linuxes.

One name that is fresh to my mind for that category is ArchLinux. There
are quite a few others, but their name escapes me ATM.

Memo, may I suggest that you go at the DistroWatch site and search for
the word "rolling". They have quite a nice search system at the top of
their page for finding Linux distros that have this or that feature.

IHTH.

As Mike_Walsh mentioned, Puppy is not on a "rolling-release" system.
But one may argue that it could as well be, with Puppies being
frequently published. Wink

As MW also mentioned, no user needs the absolute latest version of
any program to be productive. Unless it would have a revolutionary new
feature, but that situation comes once in a blue moon. E.g., I am quite
content and can do all manner of word-processing and calculations with
my old apacheOpenOffice-4.1.

IMO, innovation stops being a good thing when it becomes an ideology.

BFN.

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musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
Fidèle elle commença, ainsi elle restera. (Prov. canadien) /
Faithful she began, so will she stay. (Canadian prov.)
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 2698
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul 2018, 12:55    Post subject:  

Hi memo,

"in windows xp I can install any version from any app". Largely true, but not completely true. Some apps written for Windows 98 could not run. And when microsoft brought out Windows 7 many more apps, which had been written for Windows XP, couldn't be run under Windows 7; or could only be run if you had purchased the Windows 7 Pro version. Then they could be run in "compatibility mode". Compatibility mode was "Windows speak" for "virtualization", applications which emulate the environment of a different operating system.

There are applications which run under Puppies which also enable virtualization.

Coming from Windows, there are a couple of things about Puppy which may take some time to get used to. Two distinctions from Windows when considered together present you with a radically different way of considering an operating system. Puppy is free -- you don't have to spend $1xx's to obtain a new operating system. Puppy is designed to run as a Frugal Install, also known as 'co-existent'. All Frugal* means is that it 'Frugally" uses your hard-drive (or even a USB-Drive). It does not require one or more entire partitions. Rather, it can run from a folder on any partition. That partition can be occupied by one other OS requiring an entire partition [it won't know Puppy is there], by any number of Frugal Puppies, or just by one Puppy. Consequently, you do not have to replace your current Puppy in order to try out a different Puppy. You just place the "new" Puppy in a different folder and add it to your boot-menu.

Although we may form emotional attachments to them --"mine is prettier than yours"-- in the end all an operating system is is a means to run applications so we can actually do something.

Creators of operating systems have to deal with at least three moving targets, maybe some others of less significance: Hardware, Security, and graphic content. Manufacturers of hardware --printers, scanners, even the graphics, keyboard and sound cards which came with your laptop-- producing them to work under Windows-- also produce the drivers and firmware necessary for your computer to interact with them. Linux is not so lucky. It has to produce its own. Although they can be created (compiled) separately doing so is usually part of creating a new Kernel. Think of a Kernel as being like to a car's engine; there has to be parts connecting it to radiators, brakes, steering wheels and so on. An old kernel may not be able to communicate with hardware which didn't even exist when the kernel was created.

Malfesants have plans for your computer other than your own. To accomplish their aims they seek to exploit any flaw in your Kernel and/or web-browser -- the tool which can provide them with access to your computer. Some of their efforts can be thwarted by changes in the browser (upgrades) or security protocols run by your operating system. But some can only be thwarted by changing the kernel, itself.

It is possible to change a Puppy's Kernel/"Engine"; and in Puppies created during the last few years changing a kernel is an easy process --takes less than 5 minutes.

Producers of websites strive to provide you with an ever-increasingly rich graphic experience. In order for you to have that experience --and occasionally even just access a website-- your web-browser has to include or have access to software components (Linux-speak, libraries) which can manage what is being transmitted. Occasionally, an older Puppy's kernel is unable to use the required library. But more often, its just a matter of installing the necessary libraries into your operating system, or even just into the browser, itself.

That's what watchdog did in repackaging Palemoon, a fork of firefox; he included the necessary libraries within Palemoon. As a result, his build of Palemoon can be run under Puppy 4.21 which was created 10 years ago.

Other than occasionally having to upgrade your Web-browser, and installing a newer version of a web-security security protocol known as openssl, unless you have need for the latest "bells and whistles" provided by the latest version of some application --which may require that new libraries be part of your system-- you can continue to use the applications which were included in your Puppy, you can install the applications available to your Puppy via its Package Manager, or built for your Puppy and available in the Additional Software Section and-- with one important caveat-- use newer or older versions of applications.

The important exception is that Puppy is not so much an operating system as a family of operating systems: Think GM in the 1970s -- Chevys, Buicks, Pontiacs, Oldsmobiles, etc. One size doesn't fit all. For the last 6 years or so, Puppies have been built (woofed) so that they use components from, and are binary compatible with, major Linux distributions, primarily Slackware, Ubuntu and debian. Ubuntu uses many of the components created for debian. So to a significant extent applications created for one can be run under the other, although some "tweaking" may be necessary.

Slackware is, however, a "horse of a different color". Think GMC pickup truck vs. Corvette. Not all of their components are easily interchangeable. Some are like after-market radios. But many aren't. A similar circumstance pertains to "Slackware based Puppies/Slackos" and "Ubuntu/debian based Puppies --named to reflect the distro whose binaries were used". After-market applications such as LibreOffice, Gimp, wine, and any "no-arch" application created for Puppies will run under any Puppy. But a lot of applications created to run under a "Ubuntu" won't run under a "Slacko" and vice-versa. Well, not without a great deal of tweaking and sometimes not at all.

The Puppy you referred to as 5.2.8 is probably Lucid/Lupu which is binary compatible with Ubuntu Lucid Lynx. If so, its Package Manager provided access to Ubuntu's repositories for Lucid Lynx. Ubuntu abandoned that operating system, and I think deleted those repositories. As you've discovered, it was a very good operating system and rerwin chose to continue to update it and provide updated applications for it. But recently, rerwin concluded that further updates were not practicable.

You didn't tell us anything about your computer beyond that it was old. About the same time Ubuntu published Lucid Lynx, Slackware published version 14.0, and 01micko woofed Slacko 5.7 using Slackware 14.0's binaries. Slackware doesn't make radical changes and doesn't abandon anything. Repos created by Slackware for 14.0 and by third parties such as pkgs.org remain open. And Puppy Devs continue to update and upgrade that system and its applications.

Many of us, even though our computers can run the latest 64-bit operating system, still actively use that Slacko. It's just that good, a solid "work-horse" for most activities.

The latest version is Slacko 5.7.1 by Sailor Enceladus. You can find links to its ISO, discussions about it and applications newly created for it on this thread: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=976794#976794. But keep in mind that it is an updated version of 5.7.0. There are five years of discussions and advice about it, and the applications created for it.

As I mentioned, you don't have to abandon your Puppy to try another. Just place its files in a folder and add it to your boot-menu. Ask if you need instructions.

mikesLr

* A Frugal install presents the same operating system as a Full install; just does it in a different way. Unless your computer has less than 256 Mbs of RAM, or you plan to compile applications, there's no advantage to using a Full install rather than a frugal. And many disadvantages
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memo

Joined: 28 Jun 2018
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul 2018, 15:27    Post subject:  

I want to thank you all very much for the extensive explanation, it is very nice of you to take the time and effort to explain these terms to me. my laptop is pretty old, 1.5 cpu thinkpad with 1G ram. I have another machine for my daily work, but I like to revive this old machine Smile
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Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 4255
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul 2018, 18:10    Post subject:  

@ memo :-

To put it in a nutshell, Puppy is the answer for hardware that has been consigned to the 'tech scrapheap' by the greedy, selfish, RAM-guzzling space hog that is Redmond's contribution to the madness of modern-day life.....

And, as an acquaintance over at BleepingComputer so succinctly put it:-

Quote:
"Windows 10: A 64-bit "upgrade" to a 32-bit patch for a 16-bit GUI shell running on an 8-bit operating system, written for a 4-bit processor by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition..!"


Ego requiem meam causa. (Or, to put it another way, 'I rest my case.') Smile


Mike. Wink

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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 11143
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul 2018, 19:49    Post subject:  

Ever wonder why the next new version of Windows needs newer hardware and more memory?

Windows -> We will make this new OS.
Computer manufactures -> Well, make it so it needs new hardware, so it can make people buy a new computer from us!

_________________
I have found, in trying to help people, that the things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 11143
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul 2018, 20:03    Post subject:  

Do not think nothing in a Puppy version can be updated.
Many programs can be updated.
Just depends on what support that program needs, with the update. Some need nothing new, some need a lot of new changes to the OS.

Example:
Web browsers
Firefox updates seem to constantly change what dependency files/programs it needs in a OS.
Palemoon updates seem to be happy working OK in the same old OS. I have updated Palemoon browser, about 8 times, and made no changes to the Puppy version it is installed in.

You do have to go look for program updates, if the program does not have a built in update feature.

_________________
I have found, in trying to help people, that the things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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memo

Joined: 28 Jun 2018
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Fri 20 Jul 2018, 13:54    Post subject:  

bigpup wrote:
Ever wonder why the next new version of Windows needs newer hardware and more memory?

Windows -> We will make this new OS.
Computer manufactures -> Well, make it so it needs new hardware, so it can make people buy a new computer from us!


Funny Smile and deep
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