Puppy 2.15CE "Viz" - Development Ideas/Requests

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Lobster
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#21 Post by Lobster »

cthisbear wrote:Doing a search for other Office apps. Maemo Word Processor

http://www.indt.org.br/maemo/#abiword

..Chris
Can someone compile this so we can look at it? The other possibility is textmaker (available as a petGet (very underated - but excellent)

I would like auto DHCP connection to the net BUT it would slow Puppy down. I would still like it . . .

maybe it can try to connect on the first boot only? Too complex?
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Firefox
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Why the Rush?

#22 Post by Firefox »

How about getting Puppy to work?
I ask myself what I like about puppy and why do I keep downloading the latest version and the answer is to find one that works for me. The same applies to people who buy the linux mags and there freebies. puppy may look more and more pretty but I still cant run my HPDeskjet710C printer even with the Cups download. so what point fancy word processors spreadsheats paint programs. I want to listen to streaming media and we were told seamonkey would detect wma and offer to run it but in 2.14 it still opens a box with a `do not recognize type` and save to disc rather than open gxine to run. Also wher are codecs for realplayer and others not to mention newer formats like aac.
Has anyone tried all the downloads? pups and pets? it can mess up the menu some have an icons and some text only.Also saying its installed doesnt mean it will run. Gtksee freezes on me if i press its buttons and thats one in the standard packages, only one of the standard dialers work like gkdial but I can`t turn the sound of, so I have to get gnome-pp which can. Also inkscape .45 downloads with a menu item but when pressed nothing happens. I`m sure there are many more.
Concentrate on the basic needs, why the rush? Barry wants to concentrate on a new build of 2.2 so the 2.15 + is left for the community to develope.

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rarsa
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#23 Post by rarsa »

WhoDo wrote:We won't get a better offer than that from our lead developer, so as Project Leader I am changing our Community Edition project to 2.15CE as of now.
Another important thing to note is that whereas some CE releases are in fact pupplets (puppy derivatives), this will be an "official" release.

This fact makes it, in my humble opinion, a diferent kind of project, that's why I suggested no core changes (Browser, window manager, office suite, etc) but changes that will improve the main puppy and can be carried forward in official releases.

I like the idea of the pupplet-like CE version that replaces apps by community consensus so maybe we actually have two projects in our hands:

2.14CE <-- as it was originally deviced (Puppy derivative)
2.15 <-- an evolution of the main tree.

I just want to make sure we have the same goals in mind, and if we don't then understand that it makes it two different projects and that's also OK.
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rarsa
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Re: Why the Rush?

#24 Post by rarsa »

Firefox wrote:How about getting Puppy to work? ... Concentrate on the basic needs, why the rush? Barry wants to concentrate on a new build of 2.2 so the 2.15 + is left for the community to develop.
This is a perfect example of what I mean by a core 2.15 release vs. a pupplet CE release.

There is room for both, it does not have to be an "or". Actually the skillset for each kind of project is a little bit different.

WhoDo
Is this what you had in mind?
Do you still want to lead the core 2.15 release or do you prefer to continue with the CE release?

Firefox
Did I interpret your post correctly?
Please note that "the community" is just individuals doing whatever they feel is right.
a) You want a puppy that just works, you can contribute to it.
b) Others want one that includes the applications they like, they contribute to it.
c) Others one that is nicely documented, they contribute to it.
etc...

Sometimes I'm in the mood for functionality, sometimes I'm in the mood for it looking better (look at my todo list), sometimes I'm in the mood for usability.
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#25 Post by Dougal »

I see you have ebraced the suggestion to make 2.15 the CE.

Why don't we make a condition for doing it: that someone take one of his long-postponed trips into the outback?

It could be good for Barry to take a break before getting into T2 again...
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Firefox
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#26 Post by Firefox »

I`ve really no idea what a new build of T2, pup ver 2.2 might look like or even if the many programs currently in 2.14 would be found in it. So I suggest 2.14 be the last of the oficial line so to speak with 2.15+ being the community edition, why split into two?or divide the energy? Barry I am sure can take a break and when he finds new things that the community has found and made to work he would include them for the new build. I dont have a programing skillset mainly because there is no `in your face` puppy development environment ie an icon that brings up a gui that runs an easy to use scripting program with plenty of user contributed examples of how to code for puppy. These are big projects - I have ideas but not the skills that you posses yet. If many people can learn together a simple scripting language then bigger scripting projects can be installed like buttons that run a particular script to convert rpm`s into pets, debs into pets etc using the tools provided and build up a huge database of runnable pets.Any problems can be found in a particular script quickly and repaired because its familiar. This is getting the community to partake in the projects rather than being left to the few who are very much overworked so it seems to me.
Anyway just a few ideas. Maybe we can get a list together of `what if`s` for user friendliness purposes however unlinux they may seem to the dedicated.

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#27 Post by Nathan F »

OK...This thread feels almost hijacked to me now, so I have to offer some kind of rebuttel.

Things like wma, aac, working out of the box, are both impractical and illegal in some areas. These are non-free proprietary audio codecs. If you have spent any time around Linux you should have encountered that fact already. I suggest using flac and ogg/vorbis instead, they are not only better codecs but are free (as in beer and as in freedom). As for what you find on the net, I have yet to find something in wma that can't be had in some other format, like mp3, which works fine in Puppy and in most other distros.

If you must have support for aac and wma, install it after the fact like others do. There are numerous audio conversion tools for use in Puppy now. Assuming there is no DRM in the files you want to play then you should not find this to be very difficult, but you'll have to look up the links yourself because I'm feeling cantankerous right now, especially after hearing the suggestion 'make a Puppy that works'. Puppy works fine for me, and has been doing so for a long time now. Some people apparently don't get what it's about, or are expecting things that just can't be delivered for legal or whatever reasons.

As for Seamonkey and streaming files, well Barry never promised that now did he? Someone on the forum may have mentioned the possibility of it working when we were looking at having Seamonkey-1.1 in the live cd. However, that upgrade was scrapped for some very good reasons. There are good things about the newer browser to be sure, but there were some other serious usability issues with it as well. It was better to wait until the project produces something better, more stable, and less buggy, than to force it on the users as the default.

Converting rpm and deb packages to pet is a bad idea in general, which is why we don't do it. You should not take a package compiled for one distro and try to run it on another, because the differences in base system libraries will almost surely cause problems somewhere. Many of us have spent a great deal of time compiling useful software specifically for Puppy. Take advantage of our efforts, please, we want you to.

As for an easy to use scripting gui, if you have any suggestions or examples I'd like to see them. Programming seems technical most of the time because it is technical. You wouldn't expect a 747 to be as easy to operate as a vespa, would you? The fact is, the easier a scripting language is to learn the less useful it probablyis. The easier a program is to learn, the less features it probably has. I could go on about this for a while.

My point is, and I know I'm being a little caustic here :!: , we need to return the thread back to generating some useful ideas for a community edition of Puppy. Right now it is degenerating into a gripe fest about Linux in general. Linux is not Windows and probably never will be. This is not the place to go into issues about getting streaming media to work in your browser, or using non-free audio codecs, or asking why we cannot have something that does the work of programming for you.

Nathan
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#28 Post by Nathan F »

Rarsa - I have downloaded and installed gnocl on my machine, and it looks pretty cool so far. I went through the examples and have taken a look at the syntax a bit, and the syntax looks like it should be fairly easy to pick up. I can't say when I'll be producing anything useful with it, but the idea has my blessing anyway. For what it's worth.

Nathan
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Re: Why the Rush?

#29 Post by WhoDo »

rarsa wrote:There is room for both, it does not have to be an "or". Actually the skillset for each kind of project is a little bit different.

WhoDo
Is this what you had in mind?
Do you still want to lead the core 2.15 release or do you prefer to continue with the CE release?
There is room for both, indeed, and I would prefer they developed side-by-side as much as possible. I don't want the 2.15CE project to lose access to the expertise of yourself, Nathan, Dougal etc.

I'm happy coordinating the 2.15CE release. I don't feel qualified, despite a long-lost programming background in C and Basic, to lead a programming effort. If we can come together on these things there is nothing to stop us from producing a 2.15 Core consolidation edition, and a 2.15CE based on the latest available core release. The two projects are entirely synergistic, IMHO.

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#30 Post by rarsa »

Oh, by the way, I forgot to add another "ToDo" to my list:

- Internationalize Puppy scripts (add getmsg for bash scripts and ::msgcat:: for tcl scripts, etc) and create a mechanism for easy localization (e.g. standard installation of language packages).
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#31 Post by jundis »

Since this is a CE, i'll add my 2 cents. I think it would be cool to have profiles(the jwm config says it's coming soon), i share my pc with 2 others and it becomes a pain when icons on the desktop get moved around by others. Another thing is screensavers, i saw it had a screensaver option but it just goes black. The 3rd thing is a task manager shortcut. Sure you can double click on the mem. manager but sometimes something slows puppy down to a hault and i can't get to that icon. So something like Ctrl+Alt+Delete would be nice. There's my cents, i might have more though so watch out.

Peace

Jundis

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#32 Post by laptopnewbee »

my input:
user defined menu arrangement like rarsa asked people for input on in chat.
user selected icon sets.
user selectable cursors/pointers.
maybe a faster loading browser (don't ask me which one is faster, i really haven't reached the ability where i can compile things to test them).



btw jundis, the easy way to deal with an error in clicking the wrong posting button is to use the navigation arrow to return to the page where you clicked the button, nothing gets posted till you have clicked the submit button at the end of writing the post.
so much to learn, so late a start.

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#33 Post by Lobster »

There is room for both, indeed, and I would prefer they developed side-by-side as much as possible. I don't want the 2.15CE project to lose access to the expertise of yourself, Nathan, Dougal etc.
I agree with Rarsa. Both will develop. For now 2.15 CE is already in 'Beta' on Warrens machine . . .

My pawed cast
http://tmxxine.com/sound/viz1-Feb20.mp3 Puppy Viz audio Pawedcast
. . . is already out of date . . .

Viz and V are now combined into 2.15CE

We have a project leader Warren (WhoDo)
We have an agreed direction - IceWM, FireFox, Themes, Patches and Updates.

I would suggest you go ahead and release an Alpha/Beta Warren according to your understanding . . .

If people want to remove CUPS, Open Office etc - well we can get to that . . .

Once we have something the community wants, other community members can also refine

So far now 2.15CE is gonna be 2.15CE Alpha/Beta
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#34 Post by Pizzasgood »

My feelings are that anything in the "main" line of Puppy versions should be small, even if it's a CE. Spin-offs can be big, just not the main-line. So I'd go with the 'just make two versions' idea, one in the range of 70-90MB, and a deluxe one that's around 200MB with Gimp and OO.

They can both be made out of the same Unleashed tree. That way the deluxe edition would be the same as the normal one, but with extra apps and themes. That method also means there wouldn't be any effort dilution from getting split into two projects.

@Lobster: From what I understand, Flash 9 is too unstable. I like Nathan's idea, of using Flash 7 and offering Flash 9 as a PETget. And I highly doubt it's at beta status already. Maybe in terms of appearance, but nothing else. No rush. Lets take our time and do it right.
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#35 Post by Lobster »

Pizzasgood,
I agree with Small and De-Luxe. Maybe the small could have a 'De-luxe upgrade' wizard'?
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#36 Post by WhoDo »

Pizzasgood wrote:My feelings are that anything in the "main" line of Puppy versions should be small, even if it's a CE. Spin-offs can be big, just not the main-line. So I'd go with the 'just make two versions' idea, one in the range of 70-90MB, and a deluxe one that's around 200MB with Gimp and OO.
The way I'm leaning at the moment is to have 2.15CE "Mainline" as a complete version minus Open Office, and offer 2.15CE "Office" as including Open Office in a squash file (.sfs). That should keep both camps relatively happy, and allow updates to Office as these are probably due soon.

At the moment 2.15CE is using the 2.14Final core, and that will allow the Beta testers to make recommendations to the 2.15 core project. If I release that as Beta1, there will be Beta2, 3 or 4 to follow as the 2.15 Core project rolls out snapshot updates. Eventually, in my vision, Puppy 2.15 Core Final and Puppy 2.15CE Final will roll out together, some 6-8 weeks from now.

Any comments, criticisms, suggestions?

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#37 Post by Eyes-Only »

Hi Nathan,

Sorry to have taken so long to have gotten back to you about the email client.

About substituting Thunderbird with Claws: You'd said that the latter was fairly advanced and looked like it was going to give TBird a run for its money? (HA! And here we're talking about "Free Software"! :D )

My main concern in suggesting TBird was from a business viewpoint, or small business. Of course I doubt any "small business" would be using a CE version. ;) But can this Claws handle the making of HTML-formatted email and such? I don't mean .rtf-formatted, but the type where someone like Lobster might use to make a newsletter, or someone like myself might use for artwork? (I think of Lobster because of all the great things he does re: the Wiki.)

This is just my concern. Personally I don't really care what it has for an email client. I myself use SeaMonkey so if it lacks it the first thing I'll be doing is installing it and setting it up as default. ;) My thought is about others who may be using the word processor the make nicely formatted documents but then be dismayed when they find out they have to send them as attachments rather than just copying them directly into the email for the recipient to view "as is"---something I used to do a lot of in my younger evilier days. LOL!

Hmm... I guess I covered everything. Again, sorry for taking so long. This thread sure has zoomed since yesterday! And it was great news to read, I think, about this becoming the 2.15CE! Congrats WhoDo! I couldn't picture this being in any better hands than yours!

Amicalement,

Eyes-Only
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iscraigh
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#38 Post by iscraigh »

My 2 cents

Small is puppy, fight the bloat. So my vote is 2 versions one big one small.

Icewm (just started using it and really like it.)
Firefox
updated remaster script (ntfs one)
gaim must still work with msn
icon to install java (one version had this and it was convienent.)
all the little tweaks and fixes
A really nice icon set
I get errors when trying to use an icon theme from kdelook although i do have a .theme file it would be good if we could be compatible with these themes.

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#39 Post by Nathan F »

But can this Claws handle the making of HTML-formatted email and such?
No, it can't. But to be honest I don't want to encourage anyone to send html formatted email anyway. It's an ugly practice most of the time and usually when I recieve any html formatted email it is spam, actually about 99.99% of the time it is spam.
gaim must still work with msn
Should be no problem with Firefox. The trick is, the Mozilla libraries must be in the LD_LIBRARY_PATH. So wherever Firefox gets installed, add that location into the LD_LIBRARY_PATH via an edit of /etc/profile. Or you could turn /usr/lib/mozilla into a symlink to the Firefox directory, or even install Firefox in /usr/lib/mozilla, since that particular directory is already scanned if it exists. I have tried Gaim against the Firefox versions of the libs before and had no problems, so I assume there would not be this time either.

KDE icon themes are problematic in gtk+ applications, because Gnome/gtk uses a different naming convention than KDE does. You're safer getting icon themes from gnome-look.org or xfce-look.org. This is something being addressed by the Tango project, but a complete standard will only happen when both Gnome and KDE devs are willing to implement it.

I like the idea of two isos based on the same core (people may remember I have done so myself with Grafpup). We could of course just do a standard and chubby release, like the old ChubbyPuppy in the 1.xx series, but with OpenOffice-2.xx.

I'll see about doing the cutdown OpenOffice sometime tomorrow, since that seems to be what people want. I'm not sure how small I can get it, without crippling it in some way. I think it should definately still come with at least the EN_US dictionary, not sure about things like the Gallery. Personally I'd be inclined to drop the gallery.

Whodo - is there someplace in particular you would like files uploaded, or should I put them on my own server and drop you a line?

Nathan
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iscraigh
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#40 Post by iscraigh »

Thanks for the tip on the themes.

Oh and a big vote for having dhcp be automatic on bootup.


Craig

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