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How to get rid of Grub?
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 2433
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Wed 21 Feb 2018, 13:15    Post subject: Getting from where you are to where you want to be, and why  

Hi Donncha,

In some ways your situation is not unlike that lolo69 had. This post, and a couple on that and the following page, helped explained how he got where he was and what to do about it. http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=980683#980683.

Hopefully, they will also save you a lot of time and grief.

mikesLr
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TyroBGinner

Joined: 30 Mar 2016
Posts: 218

PostPosted: Wed 21 Feb 2018, 13:52    Post subject:  

Don't make this out to be harder than it is. Just modify the menu.lst file as described here in this topic.

As for the keyboard, I don't think that Microsoft is trying to make keyboards that don't work with bootloaders. I used an ancient Pentium 3 computer with usb keyboards with no problem. I think they were wired, however, so maybe some work and some don't. The syslinux bootloader seems not to work with any keyboard on that old computer, so maybe the bootloader plays a role in that issue.

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Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 3792
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Wed 21 Feb 2018, 15:29    Post subject:  

Hi, Donncha.

Donncha wrote:
4. Is Lucid a full or frugal install? It is full – or at least that is what I intended. To be honest I have read dozens of explications of frugal (mostly aimed at complete Linux idiots such as I) and still don’t understand it and thus went for full install which I do understand.


You say you don't understand the 'frugal' install of Puppy.....but do understand the 'full'? Let me see if I can explain it for you in a way that you can understand.

----------------------------------------

You understand that when you perform a 'full' install, you first format a clean partition, ready to install your operating system to, yes? Followed by installing that operating system.....and then you start to add your programs, apps, etc, to it, yes? The 'frugal' Puppy system contains 3 (or 4) compressed, read-only files, and works something like this.....

1. The very first thing Puppy does is to 'unpack' the initrd.gz. This creates a 'virtual' partition, with your chosen format, within RAM. This is akin to your clean, formatted, yet still empty, partition on your HDD, OK?

2. I may have the next couple of steps in the wrong order, but this is how I've always pictured it to myself. The next thing Puppy does is to unpack the main 'Puppy' file inside the virtual ramdisk that's just been created, in addition to loading the kernel (the vmlinuz), and activating the necessary modules according to what hardware has been detected. Some Puppies may contain further SFS files labelled a_drv, or z_drv; these normally contain additional drivers, or 'kernel modules', as they're called. This is equivalent to you installing your operating system onto your nice, new partition. And - this is one of the best bits - every time this happens you're getting a brand-new, squeaky-clean copy of Pup.....because these files are read-only. They can't be altered. They can't be changed, or messed-about with; it's like a factory-fresh install.....every single time.

3. Following this, if Puppy has found a matching 'save-file' or 'save-folder' (depending on how you've decided to set Puppy up) it will then 'layer' this onto the freshly installed operating system. This is akin to your installing & adding programs, apps, utilities, etc, over & above what is contained within the basic operating system. And Puppy really does contain a lot of stuff 'as standard', despite its tiny size!

Pup's 'unionfs' layering system will combine these different layers in such a way as to present the entire thing to you, the user, as a homogenous, complete 'full' operating system, with everything where you would expect to find it if you had performed a 'full' install.

--------------------------------------

As I said, I may have this hopelessly wrong, in addition to being in the wrong order.....but it's how I've always pictured it to myself. One thing you do need to know; during the short time it takes Pup to boot-up to a working 'desktop', there is an awful lot of extremely clever stuff going on 'under the hood'. Puppy is nothing short of a tiny 'miracle' in the way that it works, and how it sets itself up every time you boot into it.

And the best bit of all is the ease which you can 'back-up' Puppy. You simply perform a copy/paste operation on your save-file/folder to a safe location. This is the one part of a frugal install that can go wrong.....and which needs to be 'saved' as and when it's in a good, working state.

--------------------------------------

Many people seem to think that the term 'frugal' means it's a 'poor man's' version, as opposed to the 'full' version (which surely must have everything, including the kitchen sink.) All it in fact means is that Puppy is 'frugal' (read 'careful') with media space. The 'frugal' Puppy is as capable as the 'full' install, if not more so.....

Hope that perhaps 'shines a light' into a few dark corners of your comprehension.


Mike. Wink

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Last edited by Mike Walsh on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 20:51; edited 2 times in total
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Donncha

Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Wed 21 Feb 2018, 15:38    Post subject:    

MikesLr:I found that incredible. Incredibly informative. Incredibly relevant to me in my current state of ignorance. And I have only speed read it. Thank you.

TyroBGinne
r: I am fast beginning to believe this. Something so simple cant be complicated. From the beginning I was scared of screwing up but have learnt enough to not be frightened and my fingers are itching. As of now I have moved from my new PC (with Win10!) to the old XP machine ready for action.
As I see it the wireless keyboard’s transmitter depends on the usb driver loaded and that seems to happen as part of the BIOS routine which perhaps hasn’t started when Grub pops up. It is not a problem – just annoying..
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 2433
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Wed 21 Feb 2018, 18:42    Post subject: Wireless Keyboard  

Hi Donncha,

I think configuring grub4dos menu.lst on the hard-drive to boot into Windows and grub4dos menu.lst on a USB-Key to boot into a Puppy also solves the wireless keyboard annoyance. (At least until you want to choose between two or more Puppies)*.

With the USB-Key not plugged in, the default OS is Windows. Without input via a keyboard within the allowed time, Grub4dos boots into the default system>Windows.

With the USB-Key plugged in, the default system (initially) is Lucid. Without input via the keyboard within the allowed time, Grub4dos boots into the default system>Lucid.

After you've unpacked Tahrpup you can either edit menu.lst on the USB-Key, moving the Tahrpup stanza to the top (default) of the list, or re-run grub4dos. After grub4dos writes a menu.lst it offers you the opportunity to edit it. Say "Yes" and geany (the text editor) opens. Editing in this situation is just a matter of cutting & pasting Tahrpup's stanza from its location to the top. Just remember to first place the mouse cursor just below where it reads "#Frugal Installed Puppy and press Enter/Return a couple of times to give yourself some room for "paste", and to leave a space between stanzas.

mikesLr

* Sorry, I don't have any idea how to get any Puppy to recognize a wireless keyboard until an operating system has loaded.
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musher0


Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 12314
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Wed 21 Feb 2018, 21:01    Post subject: Re: Getting from where you are to where you want to be, and why  

mikeslr wrote:
Hi Donncha,

In some ways your situation is not unlike that lolo69 had. This post, and a couple
on that and the following page, helped explained how he got where he was and what
to do about it. http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=980683#980683.

Hopefully, they will also save you a lot of time and grief.

mikesLr
Yeah... About that...

Our newcomers sometimes do not realize that they are playing a psychological game
of "Yes, but..." because they tend to procrastinate...
http://www.theemotionmachine.com/3-games-people-play-to-avoid-taking-responsibility
or because are truly petrified (?) cats, afraid of getting their paws dirty in Linux . Wink

You can also find "Yes, but" structures in the folk songs and tales of many
countries. http://guides.lib.uw.edu/c.php?g=403912&p=2749149

Maybe something along the lines of
Quote:
AT 851 The Princess Who Cannot Solve the Riddle
??? I have to check that, it's been awhile... Laughing
http://frankelassociates.com/calithwain/Aarne-Thompson.htm

So "Yes, but" is a natural bend of the human mind. In its more elegant form, it can
be a healthy way to size up the potentials or dangers of action X. It has the benefit
of the pros exhibiting their skills! (But after a while, the pros find it tiring.) Laughing

I'm sure I not making friends by saying the above... So forgive me if you can.
What I am really trying to say here is:
"Donncha, don't just stand there by the side of the pool toeing the water, dive in!!!"

BFN.

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musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
"Logical entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity." | |
« Il ne faut pas multiplier les entités logiques sans nécessité. » (Ockham)
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 10568
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Wed 21 Feb 2018, 21:24    Post subject:  

Quote:
1. What computer do you have: Make and Model? A home build. I bought a bare bones motherboard bundle and put it in an old case. MB Gigabyte G41M-Combo with x86 Family 15 Intel 2800Mhz processor and BIOS ASI FB v.2.4

That explains it all!
A home built Rolling Eyes Shocked Laughing
Those are the best ones!!!!!
Quote:
. I have looked at what is on SDA1 and find all the Windows stuff and an old lucisave.2fs and nothing else except some system files re booting (sda.mbr.bak, lickmenu.lst, menu.lst).

menu.lst is the Grub4dos menu file that has what you see when the boot menu pops up.
The lickmenu.lst is the boot menu lick made for it's install.

I am wondering which one actually gets loaded on boot up.
That could be giving you problems.
If lick is not still being used I would delete the lickmenu.lst file.

From a booted Lucid or Tahrpup, rerun Grub4dos Config to just make a fresh menu.lst, for whatever you still have on the computer.
Just make sure the device choosen to install on is sda.
If Windows XP, Puppy 528 folder, and also a Tahr 64.5.05 folder is on the drive. It should make a menu entry for each one.

Quote:
. On SDA2 I find a Puppy 528 folder and also a Tahr 64.5.05 folder/ISO.

If you see these folders there is a good chance you actually did a frugal install of both of these.
That is the best way to install Puppy, so be happy you did a frugal install.

If you have more than one operating system on the computer. You have to have a boot menu pop up to select what to boot.


However in your first post you ask this:
Quote:
Therefore I am seeking advice on how to eliminate all traces of Linux and return it to an empty palette with just Windows XP and booting normally without dialogs.

If you no longer want to use Linux Puppy.
Reformat sda2 to ntfs format, so Windows can use it. That will delete all on it.
On sda1 delete all the menu.lst files, the grldr file, sda.mbr.bak, and old lucisave.2fs.
To get the Windows boot loader back in operation.
Fix the MBR – Guide for Windows XP,
https://neosmart.net/wiki/fix-mbr/#Fix_the_MBR_in_Windows_XP
Follow the steps for Windows XP.

If you do not have a Windows XP disk You can do this from a running Puppy booted from something other than the hard drive.
Puppy running from a USB drive or CD.
open a console and type

Code:
ms-sys -m -w /dev/sda


That will restore the MBR (master boot record) to a Windows MBR and replace the MBR Grub4dos or lick made.
Reboot with the CD or usb not used.


With that computer, you should be able to use the latest versions of Puppy.
They may support the hardware better.
Xenialpup7.5
Slacko 6.3.2

_________________
I have found, in trying to help people, that the things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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Donncha

Joined: 02 Oct 2011
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Fri 23 Feb 2018, 16:36    Post subject:    

Sayonara [for the moment]!

I don’t know how to say thank you enough to everyone on this wonderful and friendly forum. You have filled my head with an immense amount of information and given me a few laughs along the way. I see the road ahead with a good deal of clarity.

Two or three days ago sparked by a remark echoed by three of you I had an epiphany. By the time MusherO said "Donncha, don't just stand there by the side of the pool toeing the water, dive in!!!" I had already decided to do just that! Perhaps inspired by TyroBGinner’s “Don't make this out to be harder than it is” I realized I was making a mountain out of a molehill.

Mike Walsh’s excellent explication of Frugal, which previously I had assumed to mean second class and never understood, gave me the last piece of my jigsaw.

The epiphanous moment was that all my troubles were related to a desire to keep a copy of XP on my old computer justifying this with the idea my wife would use it but the truth was different! With deep auto-psychoanalysis I have discovered it was my fear of cutting this last link with mother who I have been with since MS-DOS that was motivating me! So last night, fortified with a glass of bon vin rouge I wiped the HD clean and said goodbye to Windows. If my wife/daughter want to use a computer they will be welcome to use Windows 10 on my new computer in a different room which also has Xenial on it. As for me I hope never to have to use Windows 10 ever again.

For the benefit of anyone who does not know it Win10 is the most horrible OS you could possibly imagine; not only horrid but unintuitive in every corner of the system (and Office10 is the same). Not only is it full of bloat-ware but every action is bloated by useless information or unnecessary dialogs which seemed to be aimed at total morons.

BTW people have questioned my inability to activate my XP. The copy I have was bought 2002 with my wife’s laptop where it still resides and she has never reinstalled it. I on the contrary have installed this on countless desktops countless times. Activation has always been to start with just by the key, then on line, then by telephone and the last time I did it was a terrible experience I will never repeat and had to threaten them with legal action! I think the installation key is now on a M$ blacklist!! And yes of course if I wanted to I could get around this by one means or another.

Apparently it is possible to run whinedose from a live flash and if so I’ll do that for madame. Low priority as I am looking forward to getting to know my two new almost twin puppies.

Thank you everyone

Donncha Very Happy
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Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 3792
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Sat 24 Feb 2018, 13:00    Post subject:  

Hi, Donncha.

Glad to hear things are working out OK for you

Yes, I agree; cutting the apron-strings is quite a momentous step for many people.....which is where the whole concept of dual-booting came in. So many folks have only ever known Windows; it was their first ever system, like as not pre-installed to a store bought machine. They swear at it, curse it, and generally question their own (and everybody else's) sanity in running the damn thing.....but they're used to those idiosyncracies, and have pretty much learnt to live with them.

So, naturally, the idea of dipping a toe into a big, deep, totally untried pool is somewhat unsettling for them. Many say to themselves, 'I'll try the dual-boot method. I'll get used to Linux gradually.....and keep using Windows while I do.' To my way of thinking, you are in fact making life harder for yourself like this, because you're having to hold twice the amount of information in your head.....much of which is contradictory, and indeed mutually incompatible.

I dived in headfirst; wiped XP off my hard drive, and installed Linux (Ubuntu 14.04 LTS, this was) literally overnight. I've always had a technical 'bent', and a fairly good head on my shoulders, so the learning curve, while indeed a bit steep, wasn't half as hard as I thought it might have been. Within a matter of weeks, I'd taken to it like a duck to water.

But this'll make you laugh. Within 6 months, I was re-installing XP again! To this day I don't know why; I'd had a wee bit of an awkward spell with Ubuntu, and figured I'd feel happier with XP again. By that stage, I'd got used to the way a lot of stuff is done in Linux, and TBH, I liked it.....and preferred it. Going back to XP's (and Windows') idiosyncracies, and downright stubbornness....nah. That lasted all of 3 days, and I was wiping it off the drive once more.

I worked through the problem with Ubuntu (and it was a very tiny problem, it transpired). A few weeks later, I downloaded and tried my first Pup.....and I was hooked, straightaway. Within 3 months, I'd gone all-Puppy, on both machines - desktop and laptop - and I haven't looked back since. Had no need to, thanks to the amazing bunch of guys'n'gals on this forum; had all the help I could ask for, over the years.

Windows is just a huge PITA, in so many ways. It's been made so unnecessarily over-complicated, from release to release. And it's the whole Windows way of thinking that gets me; 'This is the only OS you will ever need. Don't even think about going anywhere else.....why would you want to?' The problem being, of course, that they're trying their hardest to be 'all things to all men' (seasoned with a healthy desire to maintain the company's bank balance, aided & abetted by a legal department with a budget bigger than many small nation-states).... But that's the American notion of business for you. You don't simply beat the opposition at their own game.....you try your very best to crush them, and flatten them into the ground.....six feet under, preferably!

Why any sane person uses it beats me.


Mike. Wink

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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 2433
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Sat 24 Feb 2018, 16:33    Post subject:  

Mike Walsh: "Why any sane person uses it beats me."

I can think of three reasons. (1) Nobody likes change, and "the less change, the better". Adapting to a new environment requires learning to think in a different manner --we refer to it as 'the learning curve'. It's work; and nobody likes work.

(2) Humans are incredibly adaptive. We adapt to whatever system happens to prevail in our neck of the woods. Adapting to the 'system as it is' is easier than trying to change it. At the beginning of the 18th Century, the political systems throughout the entire world were 'Top-Down-feudal Oligarchies'. Under such systems "you knew your place". The Revolutionary Systems -- The Englishman John Locke's vision of democracy which served as the cornerstone of what some refer to as The American Revolution, the French espousal of "Liberty, Fraternity, Equality" -- envisioned change. That change is to provide each "Man" with equal rights before the Law to secure and obtain "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness". But it does so at the expense of the security of having a given place within the system. The last 2 1/2 Centuries have seen the battle-ground between those two opposing philosophies: Bottom-up democracy and Top-down oligarchies -- complicated for the last century by even the erstwhile democracies' need to accommodate those Oligarchies which happened to control the supply of energy (oil) needed to run and protect those democracies. It is easy to 'back-slide', to surrender Freedom for Security. So Russia went from an hereditary Oligarchy, to a short-lived democracy, to an Oligarchy based on party loyalty, to another failed effort at democracy, to an Oligarchy formed from the Security Apparatus which for several generations had operated beyond the Law. Using force, the feudal hierarchies of the Middle East remain in power as "allies" using the arms from their allies to stem their population's demands for freedom. Turkey back-slides toward an oligarchic theocratic system of rule. North Koreans adapt to 'the Cult of Personality' which tolerates, despite deprivations even to the point of widespread starvation, the concentration of economic and political power in the hands of one family and their sychophants. And the United States votes into office someone whose vision of the "Great America" was the Age of the Robber Barons.

This surrender to the easy answer evidences itself in manufacturing. For 20 years Microsoft had --still has-- a virtual monopoly in PC operating systems. You build applications for the system which exists. Or as legend has it, when asked why he robbed banks, Willie Sutton answered, "That's where the money is."

(3) Microsoft developed one application which had few rivals. Its Movie Maker --albeit devoid of 'Bells and Whistles"-- remains the easiest way to turn hours of amateur video -- complete with periods of distortion, shaky footage, scenes of peoples feet as they walked because you forgot to turn the camera off-- and hundreds of poorly shot photos into a short film you'd actually might want to watch sometime in order to better recall your adventure. Of course, Microsoft, not realizing that they had stuck the 'motherlode' the first time, abandoned it in favor of competing with other video editors offering more 'Bells and Whistles.'

mikesLr
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Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 3792
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Sat 24 Feb 2018, 18:05    Post subject:  

Point taken, Mike.

Like I said myself, despite all its multifarious shortcomings, people do get used to Windows. Speaking for myself, I relish a challenge.....and I'd reached a point with Windoze where, in addition to being fed up to the back teeth with it, I was starting to ask myself, 'Surely there's more available than this?'

As it turned out.....there was. A lot more. And my computing experience has transformed from hum-drum drudgery back into fun again.

For which I'm immensely grateful!


Mike. Wink

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Last edited by Mike Walsh on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 07:50; edited 1 time in total
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hamoudoudou


Joined: 24 Jul 2014
Posts: 1091
Location: rabat

PostPosted: Sat 24 Feb 2018, 23:43    Post subject: teps for Windows 7 and after.  

The steps for Windows XP (2011 Exclamation ) are not the steps for Windows 7 and after.
Sda 1 is the boot partition and user everyday files Windows XP
Sda 1 is less than 100 MB for Windows 7 and is for booting only. Don't try to Install any ISO, files, programs here Exclamation Use sda2, better sda3 when formatted for Linux .ext
Sda2 is the daily partition for user's files (NTFS)
gparted.png
 Description   My Window 7 needs three partions so only one (sda3) available for Linux system
 Filesize   50.79 KB
 Viewed   96 Time(s)

gparted.png

windows7.png
 Description   How-to for XP are not to be used with Windows 7
 Filesize   29.81 KB
 Viewed   100 Time(s)

windows7.png

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