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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Additional Software (PETs, n' stuff) » Browsers and Internet
SRWare 'Iron' browser; 64-bit SFS packages
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quirkian2new

Joined: 06 Oct 2015
Posts: 95
Location: on the inter-planet train

PostPosted: Fri 24 Nov 2017, 02:57    Post subject:
Subject description: running with 2gb ram
 

hello Mike

Tried your iron61 on laptop with 2gb ram(Fatdog version 702) and found it freeze often. So i think it would probably due to too little Ram. Maybe 4gb ram is the minimum requirement ? I see somewhere mention the parameter of " --disk-cache-dir=/tmp", that is :

# chrome-wrpper --no-sandbox --disable-infobars --disk-cache-dir=/tmp

is this parameter of "--disk-cache-dir=/tmp" can solve the issue of insuffcient ram of 2gb or 4gb? On systems with 8gb ram, iron61 is running quite smooth.

thanks
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quirkian2new

Joined: 06 Oct 2015
Posts: 95
Location: on the inter-planet train

PostPosted: Fri 24 Nov 2017, 06:17    Post subject:  

hello Mike
Out of curiosity, i compared file size for v61 and v62. Both chrome and chrome-sandbox are over 100MB in v61 whereas chrome-sandbox is only 18kb in v62 ?
Any idea ?

By the way, iron61 seems to kill and quit itself whenever i try to upload a file ?


Edit: v62 run-as-spot seems to kill itself when i tried install ublock origin extension.
iron62.jpg
 Description   
 Filesize   107.69 KB
 Viewed   174 Time(s)

iron62.jpg

iron61.jpg
 Description   
 Filesize   102.05 KB
 Viewed   172 Time(s)

iron61.jpg


Last edited by quirkian2new on Sun 26 Nov 2017, 01:04; edited 1 time in total
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 2061
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Sat 25 Nov 2017, 21:52    Post subject: Running as Spot -- cache & other problems
Subject description: running with 2gb ram
 

Hi quirkian2new

quirkian2new wrote:
hello Mike

Tried your iron61 on laptop with 2gb ram(Fatdog version 702) and found it freeze often. So i think it would probably due to too little Ram. I see somewhere mention the parameter of " --disk-cache-dir=/tmp", that is :

# chrome-wrpper --no-sandbox --disable-infobars --disk-cache-dir=/tmp"


I'm not sure it is possible and even if possible that it would help.

Most Linux Distributions --those for whom Web-browsers are designed-- are created as Multi-User operating systems. Each user has his/her own Home Folder. But that folder can expand to the extent of the available space on the partition on which it is located. Such systems do not maintain a clear distinction between what is in Random Access Memory and what is on the storage media, frequently reading and writing what is in RAM to the User's Folder in Storage. The files websites cache on a computer being so operated would, if memory were exceeded, automatically write to the user's folder on Storage.

A frugally installed Puppy, on the other hand, was designed to run as Root, having access to any storage media attached to the system, but operating only in RAM with nothing being written to Storage unless a Save was executed either manually or, if Menu>System>Puppy Event Manager, Save Session was not set to Zero, periodically. When such Save is performed, everything then in RAM (except the contents of /tmp) is copied/written to Storage. Such contents still remain in RAM until cleared by a Shutdown/Reboot.

Spot was developed in --IMHO a misguided-- effort to emulate the security provided to one user on a Multi-user system from the activity of another user. It creates a sealed folder and limits applications so configured to only have access to it.

Under a Frugal Puppy's "Merge File System" any change occupies RAM, so a Website which has cached its files on your system has done so in RAM. As currently configured, Iron's cache folder is located at /spot/.cache, and the contents of /spot/.cache are in RAM. Reassigning Iron-running-as-spot's cache files to /tmp would not improve the system as changes to /tmp are also in RAM.

I don't think it's possible. The way the problem of cache filling up RAM is handled with a Web-browser NOT running as spot, is to move the cache folder onto storage (e.g. /mnt/home/browser-cache) and symlink it back. The system, including the Browser, follows the symlink and writes directly to Storage rather than occupying RAM. I tried to edit /spot/iron/chrome-wrapper to add such an argument to Line 54 "exec -a "$0" run-as-spot /root/spot/iron/chrome" and execute a Save to preserve that change. Save went into what appeared to be an infinite loop. Neither Menu>Exit>Restart-X nor Ctrl-Alt-Backspace functioned and I finally pulled the plug.

What you might try doing is immediately on bootup (so as not to Save any unwanted junk to your system) open Iron, Click the 3 vertical dots at the Top-Right of its Panel, Select More Tools, Click Extensions, Click Get More Extensions, search for History Eraser and install it. And then perform an immediate Save. Extensions so added will survive a reboot. I'm not sure History Eraser does anything more than merely clicking "Clear Browsing Data" also reached from "More Tools" but it works very well on Iron-Not-Running-as-Spot, and places a nice icon on Iron's Panel which may remind you from time to time to clear cache.

In case you weren't aware, you can import bookmarks, but only after you've first copied them to the /spot folder (and you may have to rename them as 'bookmarks.html' overwriting the current file of that name). However, once imported you won't be able to add or delete bookmarks and have those changes preserved without performing a Save. In my opinion, this renders Iron running as Spot rather inconvenient as one's principal web-browser. And frankly, I don't see any advantage of having one browser run as spot --to protect your system-- if you are almost always using another browser running as Root.

Perhaps I'm mistaken. But I have the impression that the idea of running a browser as Spot came into existence before the mechanism for running Puppies with Automatic Save Removed was developed. With Automatic Save Removed, whatever crap you've picked up on the internet and is currently only in RAM is deleted by a reboot/shut-down without first performing a Save.

The apparent advantage of a spot folder appears to exist without taking into consideration:
(1) Someone mentioned recently, but I didn't make a note of it, that Puppies don't access websites the way other operating systems do; but more importantly
(2) Malware of any type is an application and for an application to run it must be
(a) 'on the Path' and /mnt/home is not "on the Path"
(b) it must be recognized as an executable. Even if malware were downloaded piece-meal, some executable would have to assemble it.
(3) Malware is not written for Linux which in total has less than 10% of computer users, with Windows having approximately 80% of computer users; and Linux is not one distribution but hundreds each of which is to some extent incompatible with every other variation. "Why do I rob banks? Because that's where the money is." Laughing
(d) Using technology to protect those things which are valuable to you rather than common sense is on par with the Romans employing the German Tribes to protect the Roman Empire. With Equifax having given away personal identity information of over 143 Million people --the full count may never be known-- and that's just one example that we know about, doesn't the use of data encryption for those few sensitive files you may keep on your computer, and the steps discussed on this post, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=965321#965321 and especially babaguy's response, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=973487#973487 "Use a PAY-AS-YOU-GO Visa or MasterCard" make more sense.

mikesLr
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Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 3226
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Sun 26 Nov 2017, 07:18    Post subject:  

@Mikeslr:-

Mike, all this boils down to one thing (and you know it as well as I do.) No matter how I set the browser up, 'you can't please all of the folks all of the time'. It will never be right for everybody.

Many folks are happy with the 'standard' Puppy behaviour. You belong to the school that prefers to control your saves manually. That's fine, 'cos those of us with the 'nous' to perform the necessary modifications for Pup to run in this way usually possess sufficient 'know-how' to re-direct the browser's cache to a different location.

And Linux being as configurable as it is, I'm sure every one of us runs our systems differently. Horses for courses, mate.....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for 'run-as-spot' being the operating mode for Chromium-based browsers from now on, I didn't voluntarily choose to run Iron this way. Blame Google. From Chromium 62 onwards, the browser code-base simply will no longer permit 'root' operation UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES WHATSOEVER. Henceforth, 'root' operation is a total no-no, as far as Google are concerned. 61 was the final version where the wrapper script would work in anything approaching it's original configuration.

They've decided, in their wisdom, that we ALL need protecting from ourselves....whether we agree with that assessment or not.

Go figure. Rolling Eyes

--------------------------------------------------------------

The creation, and inclusion of Spot may perhaps (in your opinion) have been 'misguided'. But for our purposes - getting the Chromium-based browsers to keep working in Puppy - it does the job. It works. I tried manually creating a 'named' user directory, along with setting up paths, permissions, etc.....but Pup wouldn't have it. It only recognises three owners; 'root', 'spot'.....and 'fido'.

I'm just making use of existing 'tools'. Furthermore, I'm under no illusions as to my very meagre abilities; I owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to several other people on the Forum for making it possible for me to keep these 64-bit browser packages going. My scripting skills are abysmal.....so I've 'borrowed' from some of the really 'clever' people. Like Oscar and peebee. Battleshooter has helped me a lot with the latest gtk3/nss requirements. And, most recently, belham2 has taken the time, and put the effort in, to figure out the necessary modifications to the wrapper script for 'run-as-spot' operation.....

Even Iguleder and Phil B. have indirectly helped out.

Tahr64 has always been something of a 'test-bed' for me.....and originally it was Google moving Chrome to 64-bit operation which prompted its adoption. It's the only 64-bit Puppy I run; I much prefer the 32-bit Pups as 'daily drivers'.

Our software is so very often a communal effort. These Chromium-based browsers are a very good illustration of that fact.


Mike. Wink

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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 2061
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Sun 26 Nov 2017, 11:58    Post subject: Overcoming the Bookmarking inconvenience  

Hi Mike,

I hope you didn't read my post as a personal criticism. Despite your modesty, the work you've published has been greatly appreciated. That it may be derivative doesn't detract from that. Someone once said something like "I can see so far because I stand on the shoulders of giants".

As you run your Puppies pretty much the same way as I do, symlinking to external folders when possible, I figured you must have had a good reason for constructing Iron in a way that made that impossible. Seems there was: Smile

Mike Walsh: "As for 'run-as-spot' being the operating mode for Chromium-based browsers from now on, I didn't voluntarily choose to run Iron this way. Blame Google. From Chromium 62 onwards, the browser code-base simply will no longer permit 'root' operation UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES WHATSOEVER. Henceforth, 'root' operation is a total no-no, as far as Google are concerned. 61 was the final version where the wrapper script would work in anything approaching it's original configuration." Crying or Very sad Mad

Well, while Iron was my preferred, and chrome and its clones continue in some respects to be superior to firefox and its clones, I guess in the future I'll just use a 'Chrome clone' for those operations on which it remains superior. After all, I somehow managed to get by with only firefox and seamonkey for a couple of decades.

As for the three inconveniences I discovered, there are workarounds. with the cache problem, I mentioned installing History Eraser and trying to remember to use it. Download only into /spot/Downloads can be moved to anywhere: pretty much how I handle download anyway. Leaving only the problem of keeping bookmarks up to date --organizing, adding and removing.

As I run various Puppies and various browsers, when I find a website I really think is important to occasionally access --regardless of which Puppy and which browser I'm using-- rather than bookmark it, one thing I already do is copy its URL and a short description into a LibreOffice Writer file. Writer recognizes it as a url and Ctrl-Clicking the text is supposed to open the url in one's default browser. [I've never gotten that to work, but copy and paste does.]

But perhaps there's some application for recording urls which would be better for keeping them organized. I'll have to look around and will post if I find anything useful. Perhaps others have suggestions.

mikesLr
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Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 3226
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Sun 26 Nov 2017, 12:51    Post subject: Re: Overcoming the Bookmarking inconvenience  

mikeslr wrote:
Hi Mike,

I hope you didn't read my post as a personal criticism. Despite your modesty, the work you've published has been greatly appreciated. That it may be derivative doesn't detract from that. Someone once said something like "I can see so far because I stand on the shoulders of giants".


Hell, no; don't be daft, man. It'd take a lot more than that to seriously rattle my cage!

Quote:
As for the three inconveniences I discovered, there are workarounds. with the cache problem, I mentioned installing History Eraser and trying to remember to use it. Download only into /spot/Downloads can be moved to anywhere. Leaving only the problem of keeping bookmarks up to date --adding and removing.


Y'know, I'm having problems understanding this perceived shortcoming with the bookmark syncing. You all know by now that I've run Chrome right from the beginning. I've always used the same Google a/c. No matter what Chrome/Chromium-based browser I've tried, over the years, if it'll start & run, and I can sign in......it'll sync. And there's all my bookmarks.

I've tried the same thing with Firefox, but the whole process just never seemed to work as well.

As for the cache problem, I approach it from two fronts; by limiting the size of the cache to start with, followed by clearing the cache/securely closing the browser when I'm done. This I do with Click & Clean, which is available for both Chrome/Chromium and FireFox.

FF; https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/clickclean/

Chrome Store; https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/clickclean/ghgabhipcejejjmhhchfonmamedcbeod?utm_source=chrome-app-launcher-info-dialog

For a bookmark manager, perhaps something here might be of interest?

https://beebom.com/best-bookmark-managers/


Mike. Wink

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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 2061
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Sun 26 Nov 2017, 14:16    Post subject:  

I Mike,

I never used sync. Figured google was already finding out more about me than I cared for. Have you tried adding or removing sync'd bookmarks using any 'chrome-clone' running as spot? Should work, but by now I've gotten use to the fact that there's a disconnect between 'should' and 'do'.

Thanks for the link, https://beebom.com/best-bookmark-managers/. If that or something else doesn't lead to a convenient way of handling bookmarks, perhaps I'll have to join the rest of humanity syncing their bookmarks. Thanks for mentioning it. I wouldn't otherwise have thought of it. Old habits die hard.

I don't know if Click & Clean will also do this, but with History Eraser it isn't necessary to close the browser (' though it provides that option, together with the option to immediately re-open). Rather, you can just run it any time with one or several webpages open which will remain undisturbed after it finishes its job. It has various options enabling you to choose what is to be cleaned and how far back in time it will go. That it cleans cache without otherwise interfering with whatever webpages are currently open seemed to commend itself to quirkian2new's need to deal with RAM overload.

mikesLr

p.s. Just initiated History Eraser and noticed that its GUI sports a link to test privacy. Clicking it opened a page to 'Click and Clean's' webpage. I guess the two addons are affiliated.
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