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can some one define: what is Puppy?
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oui

Joined: 20 May 2005
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Location: near Woof (Germany) :-) Acer Laptop emachines 2 GB RAM AMD64. franco-/germanophone, +/- anglophone

PostPosted: Sat 19 Aug 2017, 14:59    Post subject:  can some one define: what is Puppy?  

Hm, Puppy Projects, the name of this part of the forum, well, but:

what is Puppy?

What are the special abilities of each ISO being named or deserving the name "Puppy Linux"?
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
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Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Sat 19 Aug 2017, 16:51    Post subject:  

Hi oui,

Your involvement is longer than mine. Maybe you can define what unique features, or combination of features, make a Puppy, a Puppy. I think at one time on Barry K's blog there was a list of features such as 'small size', 'user friendly', 'boots from any device'. But I can't find it. The description on http://puppylinux.com/ seems to capture the 'essence' of what currently makes a Puppy, a Puppy.

Ready to use → all tools for common daily computing usage already included.
Ease of use → grandpa-friendly certified ™
Relatively small size → 200 MB or less.
Fast and versatile.
Customisable within minutes → remasters.
Different flavours → optimised to support older computers, newer computers.
Variety → hundreds of derivatives (“puplets”), one of which will surely meet your needs.

It was easier "in the good ol' days". Barry Kauler compiled each and every component of Puppy and made the finished product available. Everything else was a 'remaster'. Then --after exploring the use of slackware binaries-- he invented 'woof'. But if a Puppy were, today, defined as an operating system generated by using woof, the original Puppies wouldn't qualify. And neither would the FatDogs whose last iteration was created using Linux From Scratch (IIRC).

Messy as it seems, I would say a Puppy is a Puppy if it substantially meets the design philosophy as stated by puppylinux.com.

Perhaps the real question is 'Why aren't DebianDogs Puppies?" My best guess is that they could be characterized a Puppies. But it is just more appropriate for them to assign credit to those who put in the hard work and long hours developing DebianLive.

I think it highly appropriate that this Forum serves as a meeting ground for all operating systems seeking to meet the criteria set out in puppylinux.com; a place where the cross-fertilization of ideas may occur; where applications and tools developed in one OS can be adapted for use in another.

mikesLr
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bigpup


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PostPosted: Sat 19 Aug 2017, 21:35    Post subject:  

There is also this requirement to be a Puppy.

Quote:
What is an official Puppy Linux distribution?
A: It must meet two conditions. 1) It must be built using Woof-CE. 2) It must be endorsed as “official” by the Puppy Master.


At present the Puppy Master is 01micko.

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bigpup


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PostPosted: Sat 19 Aug 2017, 21:39    Post subject:  

A lot of info here:
http://puppylinux.com/faq.html

Quote:
Q: Is DebianDog considered as Puppy Linux?
A: No. The maintainer itself has said so. Further more it is not built from Woof-CE. But it seeks to emulate most if not all of Puppy Linux features and behaviours; that if you are familiar with Puppy you would be right at home about it.

Q: If DebianDog is not Puppy, why do you support them, or even mention them here?
A: DebianDog is considerd as a member of Puppy Linux family of operating systems.

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rufwoof

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PostPosted: Sat 19 Aug 2017, 23:36    Post subject:  

Also from the FAQ
Quote:
Q: Is Puppy really a multiple distributions that live under the same name? What makes them Puppy?
A: Yes. All of them are built using Woof-CE that tailors packages regardless of source, to the puppy needs and principles. They also share a common set of puppy-specific utilities, applications and settings that gives them comparable functionality regardless of binary compatibility. The famous puppy OOB functionality, ease of use, efficiency and speed.

Q: This is silly, a family of distributions? How do I know which Puppy I should use?

which makes the
Quote:
Q: Is DebianDog considered as Puppy Linux?
A: No. The maintainer itself has said so. Further more it is not built from Woof-CE. But it seeks to emulate most if not all of Puppy Linux features and behaviours; that if you are familiar with Puppy you would be right at home about it.

Q: If DebianDog is not Puppy, why do you support them, or even mention them here?
A: DebianDog is considerd as a member of Puppy Linux family of operating systems.

contradictory (and confusing).
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belham2

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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug 2017, 04:36    Post subject:  

This thread (and others like it over the past 4-5 years), they all boil down to one thing:

WAS IT BUILT using barry's old woof process or in current woofwoof-CE? That's the essence of the egg. If it wasn't built with either of these, then to many on murga here, despite hiding behind their kind statements and tolerant salutations, they feel therefore that anything else is NOT puppy. This means from the Debian Dog's development, to Barry's Quirkies, to Barry's Easy Linux, to Wanderer's hybrid developments, etc, etc---should not be included here on murga.

I guess I can understand and see where this comes from......still, there's no easy answer here. Exactly what and how much is proposed to cut off the Murga Puppy face all to preserve its woof-core nose? There's the Donald Trump view going on here, and there is the Emanual Macron view going on.

Life writ large is reflected in life writ small. Mandelbrot was right about of all this. There is and are no differential reasons.

I agree with Mike above, but some days, it does seem like that view here is not well practiced, heard, and/or followed by the murga majority.

Otherwise, this question would not repeatedly keep coming up over the years. Rolling Eyes

P.S. This narrow minded view of "what is puppy" or "what does it mean to be puppy" or "a pure puppy is what?" (all titles I've drawn from previous threads) would also mean additionally axing Barry's Raspberry Pi stuff, among a few others. How humans incredibly continue to cut off their own noses to spite their own face is just amazing to me. Past sins revisited upon today's young. Yet this maxim has always proven correct: [i]diversity of anything in life will always trump, excel, and progress past anything attempted to keep and/or remain "pure" or "one" or "its essence" [/i]
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smokey01


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug 2017, 06:08    Post subject:  

Barry's original goals still on the Wayback machine.
https://web.archive.org/web/20100122015547/http://www.puppylinux.com:80/about.htm

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saintless


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug 2017, 06:48    Post subject:  

Reading this:
Quote:
Puppy's goals:

1. Easily install to USB, Zip or hard drive media.
2. Booting from CD (or DVD), the CD drive is then free for other purposes.
3. Booting from CD (or DVD), save everything back to the CD.
4. Booting from USB Flash drive, minimise writes to extend life indefinitely.
5. Extremely friendly for Linux newbies.
6. Boot up and run extraordinarily fast.
7. Have all the applications needed for daily use.
8. Will just work, no hassles.
9. Will breathe new life into old PCs
10. Load and run totally in RAM for diskless thin stations

Then DebianDog is Puppy linux according to the above list except maybe "5. Extremely friendly for Linux newbies." which needs more improvement.

But I think this is the true answer:
Quote:
Q: Is DebianDog considered as Puppy Linux?
A: No. The maintainer itself has said so. Further more it is not built from Woof-CE. But it seeks to emulate most if not all of Puppy Linux features and behaviours; that if you are familiar with Puppy you would be right at home about it.

DebianDog and its forks are not Puppy linux. But everything you can do with Puppy is possible with DebianDog.

With DebianDog you can:

- save in file
- save in directory
- save in linux formatted partition
- save on exit or save on demand
- boot in RAM without save
- boot in RAM loading all save sessions in RAM
- boot from CD/DVD/USB saving sessions on HDD or USB
- boot from multisession DVD and save sessions on the DVD
- webboot downloading the iso or main squashfs module from http, https, ftp (having only initrd1.img and vmlinuz1 available).
- frugal and full install
- load sfs/squashfs on the fly.
- make easy your own sfs/squashfs modules.
- use encrypted save file or partition
- remaster the system very easy

Can anyone name one thing you can do with Puppy but not with DebianDog?

Puppy is much more polished of course. It was developed from genious minds from the start. It includes unique scripts fixed and improved over the years. DebianDog can't compete with this and it shouldn't. But it can run more and more packages made for Puppy linux and some Puppy package developers even make debs for Dog based system now.

DebianDog is based on Debian-Live. Almost pure if you use the official live-boot method. Of course most credits go to Debian and Debian-Live team and Debian package maintainers and the work before them.

Live-boot - the official Debian-live boot can do all written above with some small changes in the code.

Porteus-boot - (maybe I'm wrong but I think it is actually based on Slax boot reading the cheatcodes) can do allmost all written above (except save partition and webboot) and has some more options. It attracted more attention and uses busybox mostly as Puppy initrd.gz. Now Fred uses debootsrap (official Debian build method) extracting porteus-boot scripts in the system.

Puppy-boot - official initrd.gz from Puppy linux booting DebianDog with the included Debian kernel (after some small code changes) providing the Puppy linux structure inside DebianDog and keeping all special Dog scripts working. Maybe some day this boot method will be developed further adapting more Puppy linux scripts to work properly and someone will extract puppy-boot inside debootstrap Debian/Ubuntu build (very similar to woofce method and using the original Puppy linux scripts). But is this really going to make DebianDog true Puppy linux? No.

DebianDog is an example what Debian-Live is capable to do. And it still helps some people in this forum. DebianDog serves its purpose well and gets more and more flexible system.

Toni

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smokey01


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug 2017, 09:19    Post subject:  

Puppy Linux has changed quite a bit over the years. The link above showed the Puppy goals set by Barry when he was the main man. Since he stepped down and handed control to 01micko there have been some changes which were agreed by Barry.

The Puppy Linux Home page explains it quite well under the heading First thing first. Puppy is now grouped into three categories.

Category 1.
Official Puppy Linux distributions → maintained by Puppy Linux team, usually targeted for general purpose, and generally built using Puppy Linux system builder (called Woof-CE).

Category 2.
Woof-built Puppy Linux distributions → developed to suit specific needs and appearances, also targeted for general purpose, and built using Puppy Linux system builder (called Woof-CE) with some additional or modified packages.

Category 3.
Unofficial derivatives (“puplets”) → are usually remasters (or remasters of remasters), made and maintained by Puppy Linux enthusiasts, usually targeted for specific purposes.

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bigpup


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug 2017, 10:52    Post subject:  

http://puppylinux.com/woof-ce.html

Why is it so important that a true official Puppy be built with WOOF-CE?

Because WOOF-CE is maintained by Puppy Linux team.
That team controls the changes to core Puppy files and programs.
It is done by making changes to what is in WOOF-CE.
Those changes are not made just to do it or because you would like it to be done.
There is a lot of back and forth on what the code should be and what it should do.
Code creep is a constant issue.
A lot of tweaking to code is how to do the same thing with less code.

Those changes or added code are not just done because someone wants to do it.
They are done because people in control of Puppy decided they needed to be done.
Quote:
But if you want your modifications to be included and used for future puppies, they must be merged back to the original Woof-CE repository. To merge that, you need to send a patch or better yet a pull request to the Woof-CE repository.

The Woof-CE stewards will then consider your request and merge them if they feel that your changes are beneficial for everyone.

It is no longer one persons choice, like it was when Barry K. was totally in control of Woof build system.

You may be developing a OPS that is Puppy like, but not 100% Puppy if not built using WOOF-CE.

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When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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mikeslr


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PostPosted: Sun 20 Aug 2017, 21:33    Post subject: A Sermon for the Day  

Purity = Sterility > Extinction.

The History of Life is a history of change, of adaptions necessary to overcome adversity or to make better use of opportunity. The Histories of Science, of Math and of Art are histories of change, of employing new methods of viewing the World in order make better use of it, or simply appreciate it. The Histories of Religions are histories of change: Christians no longer secretly worship in cellars and caves. Jews no longer pilgrimage to Jerusalem to sacrifice pigeons and sheep. Catholicism has had to adapt to an easily available Bible, the spread of literacy, and the resulting circumstance that every one could learn for himself The Gospel and the Old Testament. Each has had to adapt to fulfill their objectives of helping their adherents to better understand their duties in a changed environment. Even the History of Warfare is a history of change. We no longer kill each other mostly with stones and arrows.

You are neither just the embryo which was conceived, nor the newborn whose continued existence entailed a parasitic dependence on your mother.

Wolves face extinction. Dogs are ubiquitous, having adapted first to the then emerging phenomena, Humans as hunters. We now know of at least a half-dozen humanoid species which failed to adapt. Other primates face extinction. We "have been fruitful and multiplied".

There is nothing "Pure" about Puppy Linux. It is a modification of Linux, itself a modification of Unix; itself a manifestation of the Turing Machine; itself a generalization, perhaps, of the principle introduced long ago when someone invented the weaver’s loom; itself a re-thinking of how to weave; itself, perhaps the inspiration of a child who observed the building of a bird’s nest said to herself, “I can do that.”

Isaac Newton, 1675: "If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.” Newton was, himself, paraphrasing an earlier version of the saying.

In Science and Medicine, purity is a concept which enables us to more accurately define a relationship between what was then and what is now, and identify the factors which influence that relationship. But Purity is also a story told by oligarchs with the purpose of drawing a distinction between the ‘ins’ and the ‘outs’, which serves no useful purpose beyond maintaining oligarchs as among the ‘ins’.

History teaches us that every oligarchy fails. I’ll repeat that: EVERY OLIGARCHY FAILS. The “outs”, deprived of the opportunity to influence the course of events, to themselves ‘be fruitful and multiply’, rebel, defect, or emigrate, diminishing the institution by the removal of their potential to respond to new challenges, and take advantage of new opportunities. Unwilling to have shared responsibility with “outs”, the ‘ins’ have no one beyond themselves to blame for failure. But the ‘pure’ can not fail so it must be that some among the ‘ins’ aren’t pure: Civil Wars, Internecine conflicts, Inquisitions, Purges, flame-wars, further weakening an institution’s ability to respond to adversity or opportunity. In the end, oligarchies are superseded to institutions which did adapt.

The History of Life is a history of change. It could not be otherwise. Life not only adapts to change, it causes change. From simplicity it generates complexity, combining chemicals into new forms with new potentials; building structures which never before existed; continuing the process of creation.

Woof was the product of a creative act. It enabled Puppy to adapt, to more efficiently utilize available resources than by having to begin each new version of Puppy by compiling binaries. But than, so was the Betamax.

I am reminded that for a couple hundred years our greatest minds struggled in a discipline known as Alchemy to achieve The Philosopher’s Stone and/or ‘turn lead into gold’. Issac Newton devoted most of his life to that effort. As far as we know, they did not succeed. But then, theirs struggles were kept secret. Even if their objective was not achieved, their efforts were not without value. Among their discoveries, perhaps to them only incidental, were those that led to the foundations of Chemistry. And later examinations of the diaries of their work have produced insights into Human Psychology.

I do not mean to disparage efforts to improve Woof. Any effort by anyone to improve any discipline, if nothing else, improves the person making the effort. And thanks to Barry K’s efforts in OpenEmbeded, see http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=954302#954302, there is once again the potential to woof a Puppy which is not dependent on any other distro; which in pursuing the objectives envisioned for Puppy does not have to undo or circumvent the structures other distros pursuing other objectives have built into those distros.

But orthodoxy for the sake of orthodoxy, with the objective of diminishing the potential of others to achieve similar goals, or even dissimilar goals, weakens our combined ability to overcome future challenges, to adapt to future possibilities.

Deut. 30:19: “I call heaven and earth to witness you today: I have put before you life and death, blessing and curse–therefore choose life!

mikesLr

Last edited by mikeslr on Tue 22 Aug 2017, 21:06; edited 1 time in total
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Pelo

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PostPosted: Mon 21 Aug 2017, 01:08    Post subject: What is Puppy ? well nothing to add, everything is said abov  

What is Puppy ? well nothing to add, everything is said above..
But there is an huge delta between what Puppy has to be, and what you want to use it for (i am not speaking of extra-muros users, but of you, you who write here)

Excepted : Puppy is not a training Os for old students, nor an OS for Old computers. It can be, but don't reduce it to that.
Puppy was done for Public usage, home usage, to allow people using their computers with free software, not for computing, unless exception.
Devs must brainstorm for what we need,And not request the users to compile Exclamation
Saintless and DebianDogs are in a Puppy Linux spirit. They are doing what Puppy devs were doing ... a few years ago , ten years ago. Getting fat Debian a small OS fully efficient.

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rufwoof

Joined: 24 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Mon 21 Aug 2017, 18:59    Post subject:  

A problem can be that a user forum that extends too far outside its remit can lead to confusion by casual visitors

https://thishosting.rocks/best-lightweight-linux-distros/

Puppy apparently is a ...
Quote:
Very lightweight Linux distro that should not be installed on a hard disk

A glance at the Puppy Projects forum section often typically indicates more of a Debian fork project.
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wiak

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PostPosted: Mon 21 Aug 2017, 20:29    Post subject:  

Hi rufwoof

That reviewer posted somewhere about his review on Puppy Linux forum. Reading it, the Puppy section of the review seems definitely to be about Puppy itself (though uses some old Puppy info like - 128MB RAM required). The bit about the hard drive installation seems to be an error in understanding - the reviewer notes that Puppy runs in RAM and also states:

Quote:
No hard drive required. Can run on a live CD/Flash Drive/SD Card


Seems to be a somewhat inaccurate review but I don't see any evidence it is due to any confusion about what is a Puppy (and screenshot used in the review is itself of Puppy Tahr, so presumably that is what was tested). Nor is there any mention of Puppy being some kind of Debian fork, which would likely be stated in a serious review if reviewer mistakenly understood it as that.

But certainly a casual visitor to the forum might well pick up on a DebianDog or FatDog-related thread, but I imagine most new users would likely visit puppylinux.com or puppylinux.org rather than drop into a forum as the first point of call.

Actually, having two such (different) websites in addition to a separate wiki and the murga forum, which is different again, and different irc and blog sites and more, and even an 'alternative forum' must be very confusing to new users. Indeed a lot of the info first found on puppylinux.org is about very old Puppy Linux distributions like version 4.3.1 (first page of that website still talks of Puppy image being ~100MB). In fact, if you check out puppylinux.org and read the following link, it is not too surprising someone might pick up the wrong idea that Puppy shouldn't be installed to harddrive:

http://puppylinux.org/main/How%20NOT%20to%20install%20Puppy.htm

Quote:
Puppy is easy to use and does not require a hard disk, so the first trick that you must know is how NOT to install it to hard disk !


[The text in bold is exactly as how the quote is displayed on the puppylinux.org site]

Forums always cover many topics (often only loosely based on main OS subject) so that should not be the focus for a new entry to Puppy Linux. In practice, though, most regular Puppy users probably hardly ever visit puppylinux.com or puppylinux.org (new users likely will though) or even the Puppy so-called 'wiki'. Regular users appear to generally simply think of the murga forum as the main Puppy website; and because of Puppy poor site/documentation organisation, the forum really is the main site. But that's not the fault of FatDog or the various other Dogs. Rather, the fault (confusion) is caused by the fact that Puppy could do with its websites all being integrated and better sorted out in terms of clear and up-to-date documentation.

So, overall, I'd say documentation (too much of it and all over the place and often historic) is the most confusing aspect of Puppy Linux. End result is that we waste countless hours searching this murga forum for relevant up-to-date info (trying to sort out the old from the new assuming we even manage to find what we are looking for) rather than consulting/(helping to update) Puppy Linux Wiki.

wiak
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jd7654

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PostPosted: Tue 22 Aug 2017, 17:24    Post subject:  

What is Puppy?
To Puppy developers, it is what they define it to be. Currently that which is produced by Woof-CE and approved by the Puppy Master.
To Puppy users, it is what they define it to be. Could be based on developer definition, or could be based on Puppy design philosophy, or could be anything that looks and feels like what Puppy has always been, even before Woof-CE existed.

To me, Puppy is a small, lightweight, portable and easy to use complete Linux distro. It is minimalist, but packs in tiny versions of everything including the kitchen sink, most of which I never use, but appreciate it is there while retaining such a compact footprint. It makes old computers functional, and modern computers even faster. And it "just works" having had the benefit of many user-years of bug/feature testing under its belt.

Puppy is also JWM/Rox, lets face it. Many of the original scripts/apps are to make such a basic window manager and desktop fully functional. Sure, other desktops environments are fancy and feature rich, but there's just something comforting (and fast) about the classic Puppy JWM/Rox desktop and drive icons that is, iconic. Minimalist, using small custom scripts instead of much larger packages you find in full distros. Abiword/Gnumeric, Seamonkey, all the usual suspects that are not typical defaults in other distros.

As far as Debian Dog. I agree, it is not Puppy. That is not a sleight, just an objective assessment.

If you look on Distowatch, Puppy is listed as Independent, not based on another distro. The base Puppy system of kernel/core-utils+busybox/filesystem-structure are unique to Puppy. It has its own .pet package format, and its own package manager/importer PPM. It has its own repository on distro.ibiblio.org and others, in addition to many .pets scattered all over the place. In addition, the Spup, Upup, etc can import packages from Slackware and Ubuntu and other distros.

(Debian) Dog Linux, if it was listed on Distrowatch, would be listed as a Debian derivative. More specifically Debian-Live, kind of like the old Knoppix, or the current antiX, which recently overtook Puppy as the top lightweight portable distro in the rankings. It uses Debian .deb packages and dpkg/apt package manager, it uses Debian package repository primarily, but also has its own sources. But it incorporates many of the familiar Puppy scripts/apps and can easily function as a modern and more flexible version of a Puppy. It may not be a blood relative, but arguably at least an adopted child or friend of the family.

Do they both belong on the forum? What is the name of the forum: murga-linux.com
Puppy started here, but Dog Linux was born and grew up here, not sure any can claim exclusive territory, that is up to the owner. Yeah, it is messy, but organization, documentation and resources for Puppy always has been.
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