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 Forum index » House Training » Users ( For the regulars )
Completing Advice to Puppy Creators about Full vs. Frugal
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 1691
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Sun 19 Mar 2017, 22:33    Post subject:  Completing Advice to Puppy Creators about Full vs. Frugal  

Hi All,

It's not that I don't like responding to noobs that "you should not have done a Full install". It's just that I don't think we should have to do it as often as we do. And the reason we have to do it so often is that noobs --jumping right in as you would expect any one to do and uninformed as to the operative facts-- are confronted by Puppy's Installer which uses words that encourage making the wrong decision.

Full install?
Frugal Install?

Now why would anyone want something less than the "whole hog"? Some cut-down version?

We all know that a Frugal Install only means a co-existent install, one which --running from a folder-- can co-exist on the same partition as other operating systems and, thus, enables the user to "frugally" manage the use of Hard-drive space.

We also all know that in certain limited circumstances a Full Install will provide some advantage. But, with respect to computers sold during the last 5 years (perhaps longer) those circumstances arise with decreasing frequency.

As far as I know, there are only two factor which justify a Full Install. The first is limited Random Access Memory. The "cut-off" point used to be 256 Mbs. Below that a Full Install might be the only way to satisfactorily run a Puppy. But today, 512 Mbs is the minimum amount of RAM suggested for most current Puppies. And does having a Swap-file or partition make any difference?

The second factor was a "low spec" Central Processing Unit. But, how low?

There's not much which can be done regarding the myriad Puppy ISOs which are available but no longer being revised. But with regard to those currently maintained and Puppies developed in the future, I would think all that is necessary would be to change the text provided by the Installer.

What would you suggest that text should say?

mikesLr
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p310don

Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 1057
Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Sun 19 Mar 2017, 23:19    Post subject:  

+1 I've written about this before. Without a doubt, the term Frugal seems like you only get half the package, whilst Full is everything. Who wouldn't want to get the full deal rather than some basic Frugal thing...?

Perhaps "Modular" is a better term? Or rename to "full" to "old fashioned, traditional, inferior regular Linux style install"
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 8696
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Sun 19 Mar 2017, 23:42    Post subject:  

Well ,it is all explained in the "Installation introduction webpage" that has a very large button on the first screen of the "Puppy Universal Installer".

I know, WE do not need stinking directions or info on what we are about to do. Shocked Rolling Eyes Laughing

That button, seems to me like something a new user, should, key word should, want to look at Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation

You can only offer!

Anyway, the "Puppy Universal Installer" will only offer a frugal install to a vfat or ntfs format, so they at least can not delete Windows by mistake.
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When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 8696
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Sun 19 Mar 2017, 23:53    Post subject:  

You could change the name from frugal, but there is a lot of stuff in Puppy you would have to change.

Puppy is not normal Linux, so why should the terms be the same.
Some things are Puppy specific.
Frugal install is one of them.

If you do not want to learn the operating system.
Do not try to use it.

Do not hit me with the idea that some things should be standard.
The main, important ones, already are.

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I have found, in trying to help people, that the things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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musher0


Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 10155
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Mon 20 Mar 2017, 00:23    Post subject:  

Hi guys.

I do agree with mikeslr on this: the frugal install should be the recommended
option in the pupsave creation dialogs, not the full install. Newbies tend to
trust recommendations. There are so many advantages to frugal install.

BFN.

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musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
« Un insensé sur le trône n'est qu'un singe sur le haut d'un toit. » / "A madman
on the throne is just a monkey on top of a roof." (Bernard de Clervaux)
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drunkjedi


Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 683

PostPosted: Mon 20 Mar 2017, 00:31    Post subject:  

bigpup wrote:
You could change the name from frugal, but there is a lot of stuff in Puppy you would have to change.
Let's change name of 'Full Install' instead.

I would call it 'Really low ram install', to be used only when you have really low ram... Wink

Edit: Just yesterday I replied to a thread where a new user got confused by install.
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=109971
Fatdog's installer don't have a full install option, it does frugal install but calls it just a install.
But he didn't use Puppy/Fatdog Installer, he used Universal USB Installer. I believe from pendrivelinux.com
So we can't help there, user will have to read online and understand different installs.
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dancytron

Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Posts: 739

PostPosted: Mon 20 Mar 2017, 00:55    Post subject:  

drunkjedi wrote:
bigpup wrote:
You could change the name from frugal, but there is a lot of stuff in Puppy you would have to change.
Let's change name of 'Full Install' instead.

I would call it 'Really low ram install', to be used only when you have really low ram... Wink

Edit: Just yesterday I replied to a thread where a new user got confused by install.
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=109971
Fatdog's installer don't have a full install option, it does frugal install but calls it just a install.
But he didn't use Puppy/Fatdog Installer, he used Universal USB Installer. I believe from pendrivelinux.com
So we can't help there, user will have to read online and understand different installs.


How about "Legacy Install". That's pretty accurate because it is the old, pre-Puppy way to install. Plus, no one will choose to be "legacy" without a good reason.
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drunkjedi


Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 683

PostPosted: Mon 20 Mar 2017, 00:57    Post subject:  

Legacy sounds good.
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musher0


Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 10155
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Mon 20 Mar 2017, 03:11    Post subject:  

Wrong understanding, sorry. (I removed what was here.)
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musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
« Un insensé sur le trône n'est qu'un singe sur le haut d'un toit. » / "A madman
on the throne is just a monkey on top of a roof." (Bernard de Clervaux)
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Burn_IT


Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 2786
Location: Tamworth UK

PostPosted: Mon 20 Mar 2017, 09:55    Post subject:  

Or you could really put people off wanting!! to use it by describing it truthfully as a RELLY LOW SYSYTEM SPEC INSTALL.
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 1691
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Mon 20 Mar 2017, 22:09    Post subject: Post Subject  

Hi All,

I also like dancytron's "Legacy" replacement for Full. Descriptive without getting into the technicalities.

How about "Folder" as a replacement for Frugal?

By the way, I haven't used Puppy Installer in years. So, i also agree with bigpup that having a link to a Help Page would help, if we could get noobs to use it. But is the help page built into the OS or does it take you online? Not wanting to spend the time to run the installer, I did a Wellminded Search on "Introduction Installation Webpage". The first link that it produced was to a dead page. The second was to a Wiki page which was very thorough about the technical differences. But after clicking the various links I still wouldn't have known that Frugal was recommended except under the exceptions I previously mentioned.

The third link took me to Yapi. http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=914260#914260 Thanks bigpup for bugging L18L. Smile Any reason why Yapi should be the default in future Puppies? [Well, if one's going to suggest that the Devs make changes, why not be thorough?]

Of course, the downside of just changing names --for example Full to Legacy and Frugal to Folder-- somewhere noobs will have to be informed of the correspondence so that previous posts make sense.

mikesLr
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spiritwild


Joined: 03 Oct 2016
Posts: 46

PostPosted: Mon 20 Mar 2017, 22:51    Post subject:  

Honestly, not trying to be a smart a$$, if I would have gotten confused between frugal and full, everything after that would have been absolutely terrifying.

That's assuming by "noob" you mean unfamiliar with linux, straight out of windows type users. The description of frugal and full was pretty self explanatory.

In the end, I think the most frustrating and confusing aspect of puppy linux was the search feature of this forum lol.
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nic007


Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 1993
Location: Cradle of Humankind

PostPosted: Mon 20 Mar 2017, 23:09    Post subject:  

Just call it install method 1 and 2. Promote the frugal method (let's make this method 1) as the most popular and widely used by listing the benefits.
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 8696
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Tue 21 Mar 2017, 02:10    Post subject:  

Quote:
But is the help page built into the OS or does it take you online?


In the "Puppy Universal Installer"

When you click on the big button (installation introduction webpage), on the first screen, it takes you to the usr/share/doc/installation.htm.

"installation.htm" is a file that displays in the browser.
It is built into all Puppies.

There are a few web links on this installation info, but they are not about installation.
Just good info to know and understand on how Puppy works, what is a filesystem, and file system formats.

_________________
I have found, in trying to help people, that the things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 1691
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Wed 22 Mar 2017, 10:23    Post subject: Post Subject  

Hi All,

First my apologies. Should have walked thru Puppy Installer before starting this thread. Embarassed *

bigpup had it right in the first place. The problem is getting noobs to actually click the "Help" button. I suggest a modification to the opening GUI something like that in the attached screenshot.

I have suggestions regarding the text on the Help page. But they just might be me being picky, expressing something in a way it would be best for me to understand it.

Frugal Install

A Frugal installation is recommended. Try this first unless you know a Full install will be necessary. By design, a Frugal Puppy runs in your system’s Random Access Memory (RAM). Optimally, a minimum of 512 MB (megabytes) of RAM is recommended for a Frugal Install but it will work with less. Don't worry, any machine built after 2003 is likely to have at least enough RAM. It can be installed to a folder on the same partition as an existing Installation of Windows, or other Linux such as Ubuntu or Fedora. The other operating system will ignore it being there. A frugal install also works on all types of media3. It isn't really “installed”, rather the main files to get Puppy running (the kernel or "vmlinuz", an initial ram disk or "initrd.gz", a main puppy system file known as the "main sfs" usually named puppy_1.2.3.sfs or similar and perhaps a few others depending on puppy version) are copied to your disk then booted with a boot loader. It can be installed in almost any partition in almost any file system (eg: FAT32, NTFS, ext2, ext3, ext4).

Full Install

A Full installation is just like a Windows™ installation or any other Linux Installation. It requires it's own partition and it must be to a Linux type filesystem; most commonly ext2, ext3 or ext4 but others are possible. These are mostly used for internal HDDs or SSDs but can be used on external USB or FireWire HDDs. This is a good option if you have an older machine that is low on RAM.

As before, better ideas are welcomed. Or just proof read. I always read text I wrote as saying what I intended, regardless of what it actually says. Laughing

mikesLr

* A good Rule of Thumb to follow is to actually know what you’re talking about before opening your mouth. Either I’ve been spending too much time listening to American Politicians or my Right-Brain had kicked in. The Right-Brain –in right-handed people-- suggests courses of action on scarce or the absence of evidence and without analytic reflection.

Actually running Puppy Installer proved to be far from the “easy” as suggested above. I was running Tahrpup64. The first thing I discovered was that while I had at some point downloaded the last revision to version 6.0.5 and had deleted my stored copy of its predecessor, I hadn’t gotten around to changing my active version. So Puppy Installer wouldn’t work.

It seemed like a good time --before I again forgot-- to “upgrade” my running version, deleting the “core” files and substituting the new versions. Well, it was only an incidental upgrade. But now something in my SaveFolder prevented me from booting to desktop. Go figure. So I had to ditch my SaveFolder and rebuild from scratch. With a now functioning Tahrpup64 I was able to work my way thru Puppy Installer while asking the questions “What would a noob do? What, if anything, would be confusing? What information would he-or-she want?”

Once again, it’s worth asking “Why isn’t Yapi” the default installer?
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