corepup

[mavrothal]

the core is very small
but as you add stuff of course things get bigger

its not the final size that matters
since everyone will determine what they want

what matters is that the core is very small and simple
and the additions are modular
so that every piece can be built and maintained
in a straight forward manner
<snip>
i have made 3 tcz which are sfs files
its very easy to do

wanderer,
What do you think is wrong with tinycore as it is right now?
What do you think puppy can add to it that official tinycore is not interested in/objects to adding?

Please be specific because even at your 3rd (4th?) thread calling for a "puppycore" I still can not understand.
Please do not tell us how you envision puppy will be different.
Tell us how you imagine tinycore to be different after successful completion of such a project.

[anikin]

Something big is happening here. The closest historical analogy pales in comparison. I mean the one about an ancient tribe wandering in the wilderness for 40 years ... eating locusts and wild honey.
Let my people go
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A07tDouATcE
Very impressive.

[backi]

Hi mavrothal !
" Tell us how you imagine tinycore to be different after successful completion of such a project."
I think your questions are legit .But asking for a final result ....?
Let see it as an new idea ,could be a seed for a possible experiment....
Wanderer just invites people to join in and share their knowledge and ideas .
That`s legit too .
Maybe it does not work .
But one thing is for sure ......no one can accuse him of " he did not even try "

Hi wanderer !
Did install Tiny Core Plus to a USB Stick and start playing with it.
To explain what i am looking for :

A small core -no or only a few apps installed -working for absolute beginners.
I am very interested in- not installing Programms-Apps ----instead loading them on demand like in Puppie`s sfs load to keep the core basically untouched (if possible) externalizing drivers and apps outside the base (if possible) .
The approach is somehow modular ....brick by brick .

[Robert123]

Dependencies install to /usr/local eg /usr/local/lib so in an old pup to make an updated package use the updated glibc from inycore because it installs to a different path than Puppy - useful been trying it in Guydog.

[gcmartin]

I really shouldn't comment here. This subject repeats in Puppy history.

What I see, though, it almost a divide between those with knowledge and those who use the productions of those with knowledge.

I have always understood the intent of the WOOF series. I have seen other system builders from other distros that do creditable jobs in generating Linux systems for users and have used 2. They work too. SUSE is one that stood out as I remember.

The discussion which repeat in this forum is one of what should a PUP base be. Dont quote me, but, I can see why @BarryK stepped out of the forum. It is difficult to appease the many opposing views that member have especially when we consider the many "opposing" skills that members have, not to mention the many languages, the many personalities, the many ...

So here we are again questioning what a starting point should be like and what it should look like.

Here's one view: In present day PUPs, experienced users can remove anything they dislike. They have this skillset and it is also built into PUPs base structure. So, experience user should have no problem in disassembly. New Windows/Apple users who are looking to try or use Linux as a replacement desktop do not have these skills. As such, a distro like several of the ones here in Puppyland which bring a lot of functionality are the ones most helpful to them. It allows them to have similar subsystems they are used to (SAMBA for example), use multimedia they are used to, have Languages they are used to, interact with the internet in ways they are used to, etc.

Modern PUPs achieve what Barry sort: A replacement platform for Windows users that is simple easy and straight-forward. without being left behind as technology and platforms change.

I think, that this thread could really benefit by, first, addressing WHO THEY WANT TO USE what the thread's title suggests. This is the real issue, IMHO because I have seen so many different members with "opposing" views of who distros should be developed for.

The size thing, is one of those things which is stuck in past views many cannot shake. In reality I believe given a choice new and young members getting started would much prefer to establish a learning curve on a robust system versus one that is not. This is in view that most of us will select an assembled PC versus taking all the parts and going home to assemble everything into a working unit, especially, in light of all the things that could go wrong. Assembly differs from person to person, but, given an assemble unit the game starts there and moves forward.

I have work with a lot of very very smart people. They have the same problems we have. 1 year after writing code, they cannot remember what or how they did it. Thus, to go back, is a reset requiring them to start over in understanding. I think most of us can identify with this as it affect everyone of us.

So, for this thread, who are we trying to rebuild for? Then how should it look? Should it combine where PUPPY is today? Or should it be a reset and start all over again?

Remember 2 things: When things do change (and they will), somewhere down the road we will have this discussion again. And in today's world, lets stop talking about size. Its an irrelevant discussion that have been around kicked about since before S/360 (yes I was around before then). Yet, in just my lifetime you cannot possibly imagine the size changes I have seen in just the technology space and the reactions from colleagues on size. It took me a decade to realize this and to come to grips that size increases for our benefit. Mankind's brain size seemingly is continuing to grow as well and who knows, 2000 years from now, will our brains be double in size?

One way of looking at where we are is to understand that WOOFCE is a "fork" for producing today's modern PUPs. With this thread, it could be conceived to be asking for something similar. If so, it will have to managed somehow and GIT may still be found to be the best way.

I will ride the wave no matter which direction it takes, as long as it is beneficial in both scope and use.

[backi]

Some sophisticated arguments .

[bark_bark_bark]

Most puppy users want a distro that just works right of the box, tinycore does not offer that in any shape or form.

[wanderer]

hi mavrothal

thanks for posting
and thanks for all the work you
(and the other puppy geniuses)
have done for puppy

you guys do a fantastic job
but you are too smart for dumb guys like me
i need something small and simple to use and study
the creation you have made can only be used by smart guys
so that leaves me out

in addition tinycore has a lot of good ideas
that i think should be considered and adopted by puppy

my plan is to add to (and modify if appropriate) tinycore
until it serves the needs of dumb puppy community guys like me
we could do it as a community project
so even other guys like me (or even smart guys) can participate

the specific changes should begin with

1. porting puppy sfs files to tcz files
so that the beautiful and clever work that has been done for puppy
can be used in the tinycore base

2. adding to and modifying the the core so that is does puppy things
for example modifying how the save functions work
or replacing fltk with gtk1 apps
or putting in some pretty puppy stuff
this could be made as a boot option
so that it would stay compatible with the standard tinycore
because we want to have access to the ongoing support

3. adding to the boot options so that it will boot into a full system
without the early stages so that it will be more convenient
and easier to use for newbies

there is a lot more that can be done
and the way this system is structured allows easy access


yes this topic has come up many times before
but the problem in the past has been

1. not having a simple system to use and develop
2. not having smart guys to help keep it updated

you guys are too busy
and are not interested
in working on a small simple modular system

so tinycore fits the bill as a starting point

it just fills a need in the puppy universe
that i think has not been addressed


hope to hear from you again
best wishes

wanderer

[mavrothal]

my plan is to add to (and modify if appropriate) tinycore
until it serves the needs of dumb puppy community guys like me
we could do it as a community project
so even other guys like me (or even smart guys) can participate

I would suggest start doing it
when in trouble ask for specific help for each specific issue.

Moding tinycore is not very difficult.

Download and extract the core
Modify what you would like
Download the extensions you want
Add some of your own (including puppy stuff)
package everything to a tarball/iso with an onboot.lst
>> you have a custom tinycore!

Here is an example that could serve as a guide for the process (some scripting understanding is required)

[wanderer]

mavrothal

thanks very much for you input and support
great to hear from you

i have already done a lot of work with tinycore

built the system in many different ways
built tcz
modified the core
read the scripts
etc

i think to start
rather than post isos
i will post instructions on how to build things

this weekend i will try to post the instructions
on how i set things up

and then maybe
on how to build an appliance version of tinycore
that is one that has all the applications already in the iso
this should be more familiar and more convenient
than the cloud method to puppy users

thanks again

wanderer

[wanderer]

...

[bark_bark_bark]

Since my point was ignored, I'm going to repeat myself here:

Most puppy users want a distro that just works right of the box, tinycore does not offer that in any shape or form.

[wanderer]

bark_bark_bark

sorry i did not answer you

that would be an appliance form of tinycore
like puppy you just put in in the drive and start it
and everything is already there permanently
its not difficult to do
i agree with you most puppy people
would feel more comfortable with that

wanderer

[LazY Puppy]

you guys are too busy
and are not interested
in working on a small simple modular system

That's just not true - at least not in my case.

From the very first day I joined the forum (05 Sep 2011, RSH) I'm working constantly on a modular use of Puppy Linux.

My definition of "A modular use of Puppy Linux" is: a small Puppy plus added some functions for extended use of .sfs files (SFS P.L.U.S.). All additional programs will come as .sfs files.

First there was LazY Puppy, then there was L.A.S.S.I.E. - besides some more similar versions to be found at archive.org!

Meanwhile I have extended this to a set of basic .sfs files combined to T.O.P.L.E.S.S. and T.O.P.L.E.S.S. LazY Puppy 5.

Using T.O.P.L.E.S.S. one can have one single frugal install of a Puppy Linux that can be personalised in many different ways. It offers the benefits of personalisation plus the benefits of persistent settings plus also the benefits of pristine non-persistence - all by text based configuration files and the set of basic .sfs files.

It's just a few lines of code to be added to the init script in initrd.gz, since the main code is placed in additional scripts to be added to the initrd.gz. The main puppy sfs remains original - no remaster necessary.

I boot such T.O.P.L.E.S.S. LazY Puppy Systems directly into DE interface/timezone/keyboard plus many more changed to my preferred use/settings just by the text based configuration files.

Here's how it looks after booted into X (the Wallpapers).

[wanderer]

LazY Puppy

thanks for posting

I will continue the tinycore thing
but I need to look at your system
looks great

wanderer

[LazY Puppy]

I'm not suggesting to not to continue the tiny core thing!

Though, why hassle around with a new basic OS to build a Puppy from, when there is already a build environment to build Puppy from Ubuntu and Slackware (are there more, probably?).

Does tiny core have the ability to run programs immediately from .sfs files by a menu entry and without to load a .sfs file first manually?

I think to build a Puppy from tiny core will need to new-write lots of scripts and very useful programs like shinobar's sfs_load.

Why not just building a tiny Puppy from Ubuntu or Slackware that doesn't have anything installed except those functionality to have the ability to boot into a graphical desktop, to connect to the web and to download a browser (.sfs based).

By having a massive repository of .sfs files (like mine) there's just no need to install any .pet package.

When I'm clicking a menu entry of a program that is not installed and not locally existing in .sfs format, my RunScripts will download the .sfs file, load the .sfs file and execute the program just by that single click on the program's menu entry.

No hassle at all for the end user!

You can check this functionality directly after doing a successful installation of LazY Puppy 5, just like augras did.

Hi, EUREKA ! it works !
So i can see all your menus and icons and make a better translation.
You have made a real great work and i think it's the better way for a puppy.

Though, I'm not suggesting to not to continue the tiny core thing!

[wanderer]

LaZy Puppy

no i understand you are not trying stop me
from doing the tinycore thing

but i have yet to take a good look at your system
like i said it looks great
and i am very interested in it
and i will actually check it out tonight

i am glad you posted
because everyone needs to be aware
that there are other systems that address these issues

wanderer

[Puppus Dogfellow]

how about something like a sub 50 (but 50's livable. sub 25?) or so mb core that's just tools and a desktop and enough libs and utilities and stuff to not have constant headaches. then everything else is more or less a portable app, even if it means an overlap of libs eating some of your storage space--i think it's a small price to pay to live in world where no one has to hunt for deps. i see the first set of add-ins browsers, office suites, and then the traditional puppy set of built-ins (minus browser and word processor) as one package.

make use of existing resources as much as possible.

my own experience with tinycore is somewhat limited, but i liked what i saw. i tried it out on a machine that couldn't use the cloud, which involved manually porting packages with a legs, hands, and a thumb drive, but it still was pretty straight forward and easy, and this despite the heavy reliance on installing from the cloud. anyway, i don't find it unfriendly toward the user at all--it's certainly a lot nicer to deal with than the typical bios screen is.

I ABCD -- so you down load core for __ (maybe a few presets for architecture or hardware choices. new stuff, old stuff, you got 35 monitors going, etc)

II ABCD -- package sets A: --would be easier to just be able to use all 32 64 bit portable apps...or just keep it puppy like from this point out and give it txz, rpm, dep, pet (and now tcz) compatibility.



my two cents including the download page.

like the idea and have been thinking about something similar/hoping someone with more skill would build something along these lines.

good luck, wanderer!



...i guess drivers and firmware and stuff like that could still be offered as one or a choice of abczdrives...

[Sailor Enceladus]

my plan is to add to (and modify if appropriate) tinycore
until it serves the needs of dumb puppy community guys like me
we could do it as a community project
so even other guys like me (or even smart guys) can participate

I would suggest start doing it
when in trouble ask for specific help for each specific issue.

Moding tinycore is not very difficult.

Download and extract the core
Modify what you would like
Download the extensions you want
Add some of your own (including puppy stuff)
package everything to a tarball/iso with an onboot.lst
>> you have a custom tinycore!

Here is an example that could serve as a guide for the process (some scripting understanding is required)

I agree with mavrothal. Less talk, more doing. Show us your idea and how it's good in the form of an iso and not endless postings that lead to nowhere. You say that tinycore is easy, so go for it. We can't critisise what doesn't work without any substance. Give us some meat wanderer. This topic ends now and your actual development starts. /thread

[wanderer]

I've been doing it for a while

and will continue to do so

I've long had my system running

I'm just trying to introduce you guys to it

you will need to check it out yourselves

and then we can chat

otherwise you wont learn the system

and it wont be a community project

wanderer