XenialDog (Ubuntu 16.04 'Xenial Xerus' LTS, 32-bit)

[fredx181]

*** New version of custom package gnome-mplayer-1.0.7 ***

Previous version could not play DVD's or DVD from folder, this one does now, install:

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apt-get update
apt-get install gnome-mplayer-1.0.7

Added to Changes and fixes list (5)

Fred

[Pelo]

XenialDog ? i really like it... Transferred in a brand new pendrive 8GB
syslinux chosen.

[fredx181]

Hi All,

It would be nice if anyone can shine a light on what's actually the memory "used" in newer distros's like Xenial or similar e.g. Debian Stretch/Sid (testing/unstable).

It surprised me (and annoyed me) that the output of htop and free are very different nowadays.
Continued from here:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 489#903489
And here: (output of htop and free, compared Mintpup and XenialDog from forum member backi)
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 763#903763

This was my observation regarding Ram in Mintpup and XenialDog .

For XenialDog :

Htop shows 362 megs of ram usage in Htop
( really.... 362 in Htop )

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root@xenial:~# free
              total   used      free  shared   buff/cache available
Mem: 1015676 61252 180008 297832   774416     629632
Swap: 2614268 0 2614268

For Mintpup ( shows 72megs ram usage in Htop) :

mint ~ # free
              total        used      free    shared   buffers cached
Mem:   1017580   582452  435128  207140  44280  465284
-/+ buffers/cache:  72888  944692
Swap: 3123056 0 3123056

My output from free on XenialDog (just booted):

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root@xenial:~# free
                      total        used        free          shared     buff/cache   available
Mem:        3092312       72224     2656268       47932      363820     2934992
Swap:        424952           0      424952

Found on the web how the "used" memory from free is calculated from /proc/meminfo:
MemTotal - (MemFree + Buffers + Cached) = Used

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TOT=`cat /proc/meminfo | grep MemTotal: | awk '{print $2}'`
FREE=`cat /proc/meminfo | grep MemFree: | awk '{print $2}'`
BUFFERS=`cat /proc/meminfo | grep Buffers: | awk '{print $2}'`
CACHE=`cat /proc/meminfo | grep ^Cached: | awk '{print $2}'`

z=$(echo $FREE + $BUFFERS + $CACHE | bc)

# MemTotal minus MemFree + Buffers + Cached :
echo $TOT - $z | bc
121864

Big difference between the manual calculation: 121864 and the above 'free' displayed "used" memory: 72224 .

The output from htop is even more higher than the manual calculation.

Also, see screenshot, the output of 'lxtask' which is different also (in the middle of free and manual calc).

I'm confused!! Help!!

Fred

[Pelo]

You are looking at indicators when driving when you are afraid to miss gas oil, or to go faster than the limited speed. Personally with 4GB of Ram, using XenialDog is not trouble at all..
If i were using my Acer aspire 1640 with 512MB and only one processor, sure, i will choose between distros carefully.
I you wonder about Mintpup, it would not run on a 512MB laptop, adding wireless drivers and the browser make it quite as as big as Xenialdog
I will give you my data. ASAP. But XenialDog is far from my upper limits
I can tell the truth here, the Linux Mint repository is a misery, what is the interest of low RAM consumption if you cannot do anything more with your computer than with puppy 4.3.1 ? all the applications i found are available in Puppies. I wont't leave Puppy Linux for a bigger and less efficient distro. Our students ennoy themselves, and they make some tries, here and there. There are free, but for people some distros have no interest at all, apart some trouble to run them.

[mcewanw]

HI Fred, I posted my own results and opinions in link below:

My summary:

Despite the bad news for XenialDog users about its htop utility (IMO) being all screwed up, the good news is that it is reporting far too high memory usage in my opinion. I believe, however, that the value given for RAM 'usage' in XenialDog 'free' utility is correct since it matches its /proc/meminfo reported values. That being so, XenialDog usage is actually LESS than MintPup immediately after booting! (XenialDog free reports 'usage' (which is MemTotal-MemFree-(Buffers+Cached)), immediately after boot on my 2GB RAM laptop, as approximately 86420 KiBytes = 86420/1024 MiBytes = 84 MiBytes (with the four Roxterms open and running the free, top and htop utilities in them), which is pretty good!!!

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 879#903879

William

EDIT: But my manual calculation (from simply observing /proc/meminfo MemTotal; MemFree; Buffers; Cached statistics) came to 'pretty close' to EXACTLY what XenialDog free was reporting for 'usage'. I think you overcomplicated things by running awk and so on - these mem stats change quite rapidly all the time, so it is vital to check as close 'as possible' to one moment in time and without running extra processes.

EDIT2: Sorry, the XenialDog utilities jpeg I uploaded in above link doesn't show the close correlation between the /proc/meminfo values and the 'free' utility 'usage' report. But it did during tests (I'm pretty sure) if you can capture the /proc/meminfo stats fast enough in sync with the free usage output value. The trouble is, the buffer/cache stats can change pretty fast

[mcewanw]

Hello again Fred,

No, you are correct, there is something not matching between XenialDog free results and the stats in /proc/meminfo. I think I accidentally confirmed calculations using the free reported buffers/cache rather than the /proc/meminfo Buffers and Cached stats - the free buffers/cache and meminfo Buffers/Cached are out by quite a few tens of k's on my machine... I imagine something else is also being counted as buffers or cache by free (and top) utility.

William

[mcewanw]

I think I have the answer Fred, the XenialDog free utility is including /proc/meminfo SReclaimable and SUnreclaim in buffers + cache calculation.

i.e. free utilities buff/cache = Buffers + Cached + SReclaimable + SUnreclaim

I haven't checked further with htop or lxtask come to that, but I suspect the different reports are all to do with what is being counted as buffers + cache.

William

EDIT: pretty much verified that now. See here:

https://github.com/brndnmtthws/conky/issues/130

page down to the marcpayne comments of 12 Sept 2015 (followed by those of OmegaPhil), where he makes similar observation on Arch Linux system including accounting for differences between free, conky and htop there. According to the marcpayne view of htop, the MintPup htop gives the expected RAM usage result when used in XenialDog, but I haven't a clue what the XenialDog's own htop is reporting - it is far too high compared to every other report. Bearing in mind that the usage report from free in XenialDog assumes these extra bits in buff/cache, then MintPup usage actually is a bit less than XenialDog on bootup, but not hugely...

[fredx181]

Hi William,

Thanks for the extensive replies. Not short of sleep I hope?
And the info you found: https://github.com/brndnmtthws/conky/issues/130
Things are a whole lot more clear to me.
It seems that they changed the standard now of what's actually "memory used", but I still can't understand why htop output is so different from free.
(BTW, conky and htop are exactly the same)
At least now we know how the free output is calculated in XenialDog:
MemTotal - MemFree - (Buffers + Cached + SReclaimable + SUnreclaim)
And calculating in bash proves it (pretty much synced free and calculation output running at the same time):

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# 'free' output itself and calculation similar as 'free' as it's done on XenialDog: MemTotal - MemFree - (Buffers + Cached + SReclaimable + SUnreclaim) :
# (on XenialDog this calculated output from /proc/meminfo is the same (or almost) as the 'free' output)
( cat /proc/meminfo > /tmp/memlist &
free & )     # synced with each other, at least almost
sleep 1
TOT=`cat /tmp/memlist | grep MemTotal: | awk '{print $2}'`; FREE=`cat /tmp/memlist | grep MemFree: | awk '{print $2}'`; BUFFERS=`cat /tmp/memlist | grep Buffers: | awk '{print $2}'`; CACHE=`cat /tmp/memlist | grep ^Cached: | awk '{print $2}'`; SRECLAIM=`cat /tmp/memlist | grep SReclaimable: | awk '{print $2}'`; SUNRECLAIM=`cat /tmp/memlist | grep SUnreclaim: | awk '{print $2}'`;
echo -e "\e[0;32mUsed = $(($TOT-$FREE-($BUFFERS+$CACHE+$SRECLAIM+$SUNRECLAIM)))\033[0m"

How the calculation is done for 'free' "used" (+/- buffer/cache line) on DebianDog: MemTotal - MemFree - (Buffers + Cached) :

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# 'free' output itself and calculation similar as 'free' as it's done on DebianDog or Mintpup: MemTotal - MemFree - (Buffers + Cached)
# (on XenialDog this calculated output from /proc/meminfo is far higher compared to 'free' output)
# (on DebianDog or Mintpup it should be almost the same)
( cat /proc/meminfo > /tmp/memlist &
free & )     # synced with each other, at least almost
sleep 1
TOT=`cat /tmp/memlist | grep MemTotal: | awk '{print $2}'`; FREE=`cat /tmp/memlist | grep MemFree: | awk '{print $2}'`; BUFFERS=`cat /tmp/memlist | grep Buffers: | awk '{print $2}'`; CACHE=`cat /tmp/memlist | grep ^Cached: | awk '{print $2}'`; 
echo -e "\e[0;32mUsed = $(($TOT-$FREE-($BUFFERS+$CACHE)))\033[0m"

The calculated "used" output is near (although a few MB's higher) to what lxtask gives, so I trust it the most when it comes at comparing RAM usage with "older" distro's.
(still a whole lot lower than htop, which is excessive in my opinion, specially in time, when I actually have started using some programs, e.g. firefox)

Fred

[mcewanw]

Hi Fred,

Nice scripts - I might just use these as a more trustable alternative and yes, htop, which is the most generally used, does seem to give far to high usage results (and conky thus with it).

As for sleep, its true I'm having little, but nothing to do with computer work per se (just using that to fill in my time); my partner is abroad on a business trip so keeping in touch (despite the timezone difference) via Skype during late nights/early mornings.

William

[fredx181]

*** Important Info ***

The XenialDog (custom) package repository is down and this will probably be permanent.
The thing is; for http://debiandog.ml/XenialDog/ I use free webhosting from hostinger.com.
But I received email today that my account is suspended
Reason: Abuse
Extra info: Is used just for file sharing
So I learned from that; to never use free webhosting again for a package repository.

The repository address has now changed to dropbox, to make it work, in terminal first:

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apt-get update
apt-get install apt-transport-https # required for dropbox

Then, use text-editor e.g. leafpad to remove this line on top of file: /etc/apt/sources.list:

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deb http://debiandog.ml/XenialDog/Packages/ ./

And replace by adding on top:

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deb https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/36381953/XenialDog/Packages/ ./

Then:

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apt-get update

And it should be fixed.

Probably I will upload new ISO soon because of this, with other bug fixes also included.

Edit: Updated the first post also, changed links to DEVX and locales modules to google-drive address (instead of http://debiandog.ml/XenialDog/)
DEVX: 061-DEVX-XenialDog-2016-04-29.squashfs
Locales: 99-locales-XenialDog-2016-04-29.squashfs
Edit2: New DEVX and locales modules (for new ISO release, 2016-05-21):
DEVX: 061-DEVX-XenialDog-2016-05-21.squashfs
Locales: 99-locales-XenialDog-2016-05-21.squashfs

Fred

[Pelo]

That is bad news for the repository.

About RAM indicator, is it so important ? Windows 7 starting does not reach the maxima. Xenialdog is ok at home (faster than Xenialpup).

[Pelo]

our old VIPs in France had a debate too about meanings of Free and Htop. It's not the same thing that is measured.
in Memory there is inactive, active and free.
Mister processor will empty inactive memory if free memory become to low to allow him to work. If you have 4GB, it will not empty memory, I know some puppy builders who store files in memory
The only thing to look is swap. As soon as swap is used, you are in the limits.. Swap should never be used. It's a rescue system. Close some programs.
Screenshot is my old Acer's one 512MB. Use old Puppies for these laptops. Browsers nowadays quite fulfill 512Mb
The bigger your RAM is, The more inactive Memory will be kept, because no need to kick it out.

[fredx181]

About RAM indicator, is it so important ?

In my opinion sure it is. You have the luxury of 4GB (same for me, I have 3GB).
But what if someone who has only 512MB reads about XenialDog and wants to try, he/she should know about it.

For example, I think they explain it right on the Lubuntu website http://lubuntu.net/:

For advanced internet services like Google+, YouTube, Google Docs and Facebook, your computer needs about 1 GB of RAM.

For local programs like LibreOffice and simple browsing habits, your computer needs about 512 MB of RAM. See minimal for systems below that RAM.

From what I tested XenialDog will run even with 340MB RAM, but when running firefox with multiple tabs, Youtube etc.., swap will be used soon (as you also said) and the system get's much slower.

With 512MB RAM it will be a lot better, but still depends on what programs you use and how many at the same time.

You can test btw, by adding e.g.:

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mem=512M

To kernel boot command line. It will be limited then to 512MB.

Fred

[Pelo]

I have an Acer aspire 1640 512MB .
Even running a Puppy slacko 6.3.0 is not a good idea. Xenialdog is not for running on such computers.
it's impossible ! Without adding anything my RAM is around 500MB occupied. No audio or video running..
I can try XenialDog with My acer, perhaps i am wrong . I am curious. Go ! feed back to-morrow.
But i'am quite sure Puppy Linux has better results. I installed Ubuntu in the past, ubuntu was slower than windows XP after ten minutes.

Processor is a worker. the les he can store beside him (the RAM) he has to go and return to the swap (Hardisk) . He loose a lot of time. This is why RAM was created.
Hard disk is slow, very slow. for typing it's ok, man is really slow to type. But install a Debian system for secretary works ??? If someone ask you to watch a video, what will you do ?
For My Medion 64bits, four processors, 4GB XenialDog is really nice, but for the Medion, not for my poor Acer , with hard disk fully written . That is important too, looking for free space on hard disk .

[fredx181]

I can try XenialDog with My acer, perhaps i am wrong . I am curious. Go ! feed back to-morrow. Smile

Yes, please do, such tests are always welcome!

Fred

[Pelo]

no wireless ! but data are surprising low about Ram used, around 120 on Acer, compared to 500 with Medion.
Frisbee should always be With another network wizard.. I will install one. But really XenialDog will hardly run my old laptop, the poor get very fast to 80° if the CPU works hard
New feed-back later.

[mcewanw]

no wireless ! but data are surprising low about Ram used, around 120 on Acer, compared to 500 with Medion.

Possible not getting wireless because rfkill package not installed. Hope new iso can be released soonish with that fix Fred because many may be put off seeing no wireless on their machines.

RAM used shouldn't be showing 500, I feel, unless checked with browser already running - should check immediately on first booting up with no programs running. But maybe each machine is different in how it sets up Shared Mem, which we now know is part of the amount shown in Xenial htop used RAM display.

William

[Pelo]

debate (fight ?) about memory usage is useless for people with one GB or more. Processors and RAM are here to be used, even 70% of Ram used is fluent.. Only games would freeze the computer. Puppy passengers are not gamers

If The poor passenger has an old laptop with only 512MB The debate is quite different ! Is it a good choice to install a nice Xenialdog that will freeze all the time ? Think about the temperatue too. Often it's the first alert you get
The main debate too is that you care what a distro is made with, the passenger cares only what he is able to do with. .
(i use passenger because most users in the forum only search to administrate their Distro, not to use it)

[fredx181]

If The poor passenger has an old laptop with only 512MB The debate is quite different ! Is it a good choice to install a nice Xenialdog that will freeze all the time ? Think about the temperatue too. Often it's the first alert you get

Do I understand well that Xenialdog doesn't work well on your old Acer?
(I mean you fully tested?)

I am going to test later (when I have the chance) on a 512MB computer.
What I did for now is sort of simulating 1 core and 512MB RAM on my HP Compaq 6710b laptop dual core (I think it's around 8 years old) by adding this to my kernel commandline:

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nr_cpus=1 mem=512M

Probably not a totally fair comparison with a "real old" 512MB computer, there are more factors of course.

Result: It runs pretty well, even with running firefox (just a few tabs opened) temperature OK.
See screenshots.

Fred

[fredx181]

=========================================
*** New iso image uploaded ***
=========================================

Reason is mostly because the custom XenialDog repository is down, fixed now in new release by changing it to dropbox, see below 6.

Choice of two ISO's: XenialDog-openbox_jwm-2016-05-21-firmware-all and XenialDog-openbox_jwm-2016-05-21-firmware-basic.
Difference is that firmware-all has package "linux-firmware" installed, recommended if you need e.g. wireless.

Firmware-all:
Iso: XenialDog-openbox_jwm-2016-05-21-firmware-all.iso Size: 289MB
Md5sum: XenialDog-openbox_jwm-2016-05-21-firmware-all.md5

Firmware-basic:
Iso: XenialDog-openbox_jwm-2016-05-21-firmware-basic.iso Size: 244MB
Md5sum: XenialDog-openbox_jwm-2016-05-21-firmware-basic.md5

*** Changes, fixes and information: ***

1. New version of xvidcap, 1.1.7a,:
Changed: removed dependency of pulseaudio, (works fine with oss driver (/dev/dsp) )
This way install space required will be a lot smaller also.
See also here:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 369#902369
2. New version of precord, 9.0.4:
Changed: Added dependency: lame
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 369#902369
3. New version of jwm-setup, 0.0.2:
See info and changes here:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 044#902044
4. Added rfkill, needed by frisbee (specially if using a HP machine)
5. New version of gnome-mpayer-1.0.7, with DVD support now:
6. Changed Xenialdog repository address (old address is down): installed is apt-transport-https (depends on it for to work with dropbox):
Address for the Xenialdog package repository in /etc/apt/sources.list is now:

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deb https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/36381953/XenialDog/Packages/ ./

See also here: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 709#904709

Download links on first post updated.

Fred