Invisible beta (or, a 'bug' in many versions of puppy)

Puppy related raves and general interest that doesn't fit anywhere else
Locked
Message
Author
amish
Posts: 615
Joined: Sun 24 Sep 2006, 23:15

Invisible beta (or, a 'bug' in many versions of puppy)

#1 Post by amish »

the following may make barryk think i'm a complete jerk... (in fact, there's always the possibility that i am) but, he should know (as i'm saying it right now) that puppy is in my opinion, the best linux, ever. others may have their own favorites, they may even have allegedly better reasons than i do, but puppy is mine.

it goes without saying that barryk can do whatever he wants to with puppy, he's BDFL, he does a fantastic job with his own distro, and indeed, if he changed nothing there would still be options. still, i thought i'd say what i'm about to, and i'm not the only one that's said it, so i'll try to say it for them too (and let them remain nameless)

so, eh? "invisible beta." (i admit i just made it up.) this is when something goes through a beta stage that is imperceptible in some way, in this case, because it happens so fast you could easily miss it. regardless of how many people are actively beta testing, usually a beta stage lasts long enough for people to hear about it.

not always the case with puppy. in what's becoming a tradition of sorts, puppy 2.12 beta2 is going through a Three-Day beta stage.

i mentioned in the irc channel, that it would be really excellent to focus on just two things, and get them working above reproach if can be: wireless support and disc-at-once writing, or at least "track-at-once" writing that burns iso's reliably across different systems. "across different systems?" this is one thing that a non-invisible beta lets you know more about, although it's good that we have many testers. it's a pity they only get three days to work it out. hopefully a weekend was chosen- (i didn't check on that, but it is now friday.)

another thing that a non-invisible beta allows is time to really fix what bugs you've found. having seen some of barryk's work, i suppose it's actually possible that he can fix all the bugs he finds in such a short period of time. still, it doesn't allow for beta testers to test those bug-fixes before the next release, being "final." at least it's "beta2" and not just "beta..."

but what can be done about this? for one, you could try to persuade the lead developer. geniuses (we probably can't argue that point, and i wouldn't) are often temperamental and stubborn, and this avenue might be pointless to explore. he will ultimately do this the way he wants to, and certainly, what comes out of doing it his way is really incredible. i almost can't imagine using another linux, despite puppy not being the only good one.

another thing that can be done is to simply slow down our upgrading on the user end. this is not to sway anyone, but it's what i do and some others do, for ourselves. i don't upgrade unless i have a few specific reasons to. among my reasons for exploring 2.11 were my interest in puppybasic 2.5, and and that i had a machine that couldn't boot the (somewhat faster, not to be sneezed at) puppy 1.07, which i now dual boot but don't use very often. i was rewarded for upgrading by being able to add another machine to the "works with puppy" list. all my machines work with 2.11, all but one work with 1.07. 1.07 was much, much faster on my pentium with 64mb of ram. i'm told i can make a swap file (which 1.07 did not create or need on my machines.) still, there are older versions worth embracing long term, i believe- certainly for use on the lower-end pentiums.

(and a note to jady: please, please do not discard your wonderful 1.07+dos grub package when you create a more up to date version.)

when a version has been around for a while, we will then have a "virtual beta" stage where something has indeed been tested as much as you prefer. bugs aren't necessarily repaired following this stage, sadly, but i've found even windows98 is a lot more tolerable after you've had about a decade to find half the bugs and compensate for them. it's not an ideal model, but there must be some reason it's becoming more popular. we can hope.

as for another way to compensate, more than any other distro (okay, i just don't know any others that lend themselves to this, but that could be plain lack of experience) puppy lends itself to making a custom "distro" of your own. note the almost countless varieties that have come from puppy. in this sense, puppy is acting as a sort of "diy-kit" or seed for people making their own distros, and they can use it to make their own, at their own pace. "if you want a version that takes a while to be developed, make it yourself..."

that of course brings me to the official "ce" versions, which may not (if the community wishes) come out quite as often as the versions barryk puts out. personally, i will probably continue to just upgrade less often, and look to "ce" when the wand has truly been passed.

those of us that are a bit uneasy with the "3 day beta" model have plenty of options, and there's always the nominal chance that our hero of distro creators will calm down and release at a less hectic pace, even prior to moving on to another project (which no one really wants him to do.) i can relate to the desire to put the latest version up the minute it's compiled, i almost do that with my tiny collection of utilities. of course, i have never named one "final." i tend to call them all "beta" and in fact, "alpha" may even be a better term. like barryk, i'd rather play with the code and the program, than worry about the formalities of "blah, blah, blah." it's all understandable. i simply hope that "beta" will never become the better term for puppy, overall.

User avatar
Flash
Official Dog Handler
Posts: 13071
Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 16:04
Location: Arizona USA

#2 Post by Flash »

Everyone has his own idea of the route it ought to take; the important thing is, Puppy is always moving forward. It goes faster if you find a way to contribute, then pitch in. There's always something that needs doing. :)

amish
Posts: 615
Joined: Sun 24 Sep 2006, 23:15

#3 Post by amish »

Flash wrote:It goes faster if you find a way to contribute, then pitch in. There's always something that needs doing. :)
i'm trying, but when nothing stays the same long enough to learn about it, the amount of learning required just to lend a hand quadruples, and continues to double from there. hence what i wrote.

it's not, strictly speaking, a complaint or a lament. it's a thought- and there's a small amount of frustration there, sure. i'd like to help, but first puppy has to sit still for just a part of a moment, without having everything change. it's really not even *quite* that bad.

my hope is that it won't continue to get that way, only moreso.
i also tried to offer an idea or two to people that feel the same way about this. that's about it.
sadly, it is not possible to separate politics from free software. free software - politics = unfree software.

marksouth2000
Posts: 622
Joined: Wed 05 Apr 2006, 20:43

#4 Post by marksouth2000 »

I can understand exactly where these feelings come from. In the interests of fairness, however, Barry released 212b2 on Sunday and beta testing is still continuing apace through Friday. So the "three-day" epithet is not really true, and merely a rhetorical device.

Now, a different take on the matter: Puppy is smaller and faster than other distros, the Puppy community is small and fast and well-connected, so we test things quickly. Puppy is not heavy commercial software, if stuff breaks it gets fixed as Puppy goes along. Look how many updated and additional packages MU and Guesttoo have released since 211.

Also, there's no exclusion involved. If you have the time, get a copy of each alpha or beta as it comes and test it, give your feedback on the developer forum, and try to figure out how to unbreak stuff. We don't always all have the time. I'm having a slack week so I've been testing a fair bit, the last time I contributed was to the 200 alphas. Puppy is meant to be fun, so play when you can and don't stress if you can't.

Mark 8)

amish
Posts: 615
Joined: Sun 24 Sep 2006, 23:15

#5 Post by amish »

So the "three-day" epithet is not really true, and merely a rhetorical device.
not intentionally! but good to know. when i don't know an author i take what i hear literally, when i know someone, i take them into account.
Now, a different take on the matter: Puppy is smaller and faster than other distros, the Puppy community is small and fast and well-connected, so we test things quickly. Puppy is not heavy commercial software, if stuff breaks it gets fixed as Puppy goes along. Look how many updated and additional packages MU and Guesttoo have released since 211.
no disagreement there. the whole tempo makes me apprehensive, makes you doubt, but as i tried to make clear, the product is still unparalleled.
Also, there's no exclusion involved... Puppy is meant to be fun, so play when you can and don't stress if you can't.
no disagreement there either, but nicer to hear it from someone. lately, nearly all of my spare time is spent studying how puppy works, from the user standpoint. there isn't something else i'd rather be doing, and i'm being as thorough as i can.

also, i'm trying to write some small, optional utilities, and eventually help people (like lobster, and for that matter, myself) get more into programming- especially console, in puppybasic, but not exclusively or at first. right now i'm having loads of trouble with things such as arrow keys in rxvt. the reason i'm interested so much in the console is that in theory, onebone users can use them too. i have already read the tutorials, but all the docs that i know of predate 2.5.

if i don't try *so* hard, i'll probably be happier- but taking it easy isn't a strength of mine. i'm not abandoning what i said, either- it still applies, but your points are (at least) equally valid, imo- and i really didn't intend to express the contrary.

anyway, thanks for understanding where i was coming from.
sadly, it is not possible to separate politics from free software. free software - politics = unfree software.

User avatar
Dougal
Posts: 2502
Joined: Wed 19 Oct 2005, 13:06
Location: Hell more grotesque than any medieval woodcut

#6 Post by Dougal »

That has always been a problem with Puppy, but it's inevitable because of what Puppy is: Barry's "baby".
If Barry gets some new idea, he rushes ahead and implements it and it just keeps going that way
What's the ugliest part of your body?
Some say your nose
Some say your toes
But I think it's your mind

User avatar
Gn2
Posts: 943
Joined: Mon 16 Oct 2006, 05:33
Location: virtual - Veni vidi, nihil est adpulerit

#7 Post by Gn2 »

Everyone has own private views on how any distribution development may be implemented.
Contrary to it being viewed as a "problem" may I sugggest it be stressed as one more of Puppy's greatest strengths.

Ultimately all is in capable hands of the one person most familiar to internal structure.
Whether that be Barry K's or any wonderful variant:

In Puppy's unique case,.. many considerations are simply not applicable (full hard drive installs vs Puppy enhancements)

With feedback from users (the one area where anyone may help)
all moves forward and Tmp glitches soon noted, corrected.

The ability to safely re-master/edit & test allows Puppy to move faster than more conventional distributions

None of which is not already widely known & appreciated.

If Mr Amish has encountered I.E. problems with any optical device: (OR any problem)
Please tolerate me to advise:
Open up own thread in appropriate header ...supply all background & hardware advisories ?

IMHO - It is not needed to specifically draw attention "for use of others" as that is what the correct
Forum Header & search utilities do best.
.
Thank you

raffy
Posts: 4798
Joined: Wed 25 May 2005, 12:20
Location: Manila

loading off

#8 Post by raffy »

"Helping" is a culture that one may observe here or probably in any other development community. In the case of Puppy, help for Barry comes in the form of suggestions or coding of that elusive "tiny, speedy and useful" program that eventually finds its way into the next build of Puppy.

So it is not only BarryK's attitude, but most developers', who I guess understand that once you sit still, you're soon forgotten. It's a way of life.

Surprisingly, despite this "rocketing ahead" attitude, Puppy developers spend time for fun and friendship. To me, there lies the real difference.
Puppy user since Oct 2004. Want FreeOffice? [url=http://puppylinux.info/topic/freeoffice-2012-sfs]Get the sfs (English only)[/url].

User avatar
Flash
Official Dog Handler
Posts: 13071
Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 16:04
Location: Arizona USA

Re: loading off

#9 Post by Flash »

raffy wrote:... "rocketing ahead" ...
Good one, Raffy. That's Puppy! :lol:

Real artists work fast. Barry is an artist.

muggins
Posts: 6724
Joined: Fri 20 Jan 2006, 10:44
Location: hobart

#10 Post by muggins »

i usually have 2 pups on my lappy. one that i regard as stable and which does everything i need, and a testpup, which is usually barry's latest, or someone else's pup. at some stage, if the testpup performs well & has features that i want, it's my next stable.

it was only about 5 months ago that i read a post by a regular, (don't recall who), that they were considering trying a newer pup than their current 0.97 version!

User avatar
Pizzasgood
Posts: 6183
Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 20:28
Location: Knoxville, TN, USA

#11 Post by Pizzasgood »

.9.7 wasn't too shabby if I remember correctly. If memory serves me right, odds tended to be more stable back then, but only by coincidence.
[size=75]Between depriving a man of one hour from his life and depriving him of his life there exists only a difference of degree. --Muad'Dib[/size]
[img]http://www.browserloadofcoolness.com/sig.png[/img]

raffy
Posts: 4798
Joined: Wed 25 May 2005, 12:20
Location: Manila

weekend uploading

#12 Post by raffy »

Almost forgot this - one fact needs to be appreciated by the readers, which is that Barry has to travel far during weekends just to upload files through a friend's Internet connection.

In this light, Barry makes the most of it and uploads the newest versions of files built during the week.
Puppy user since Oct 2004. Want FreeOffice? [url=http://puppylinux.info/topic/freeoffice-2012-sfs]Get the sfs (English only)[/url].

amish
Posts: 615
Joined: Sun 24 Sep 2006, 23:15

Re: Invisible beta (or, a 'bug' in many versions of puppy)

#13 Post by amish »

Gn2 wrote:f Mr Amish has encountered I.E. problems with any optical device: (OR any problem)
Please tolerate me to advise:
Open up own thread in appropriate header ...supply all background & hardware advisories ?

IMHO - It is not needed to specifically draw attention "for use of others" as that is what the correct
Forum Header & search utilities do best.
DUDE, what is your deal?

first off, dougal made some good points that i agree with, and in fact, some of his points (how the ce edition mitigates the thing i see as a possible problem most of all) really overlap mine. i look forward to seeing more about the ce editions.

secondly, i already noted that it's impossible to try to make barry slow down- that's not something i'm suggesting, i think i said it would be pointless to.

but please stop going out of your way to make my post less reasonable than it was. THAT is "unneeded," i was only trying to make a point or two, collect some thoughts, maybe get someone else to make some points too- not annoy anyone about the *example* i used of the cd thing and the wireless support (nor was that the point of the post, as you seem to suggest) - i don't even have wireless, it's something i've heard complaints about.

i don't like having people just start implying that i wrote everything i said in this thread over one thing when the mass of it is clearly about the topic i posted. i didn't post it in the wrong place or under the wrong header- ffs.

you also essentially (in other words of course) told me my bash howto wasn't needed, because there's some similar resource on the net somewhere. thanks! if you do have some personal issue with me that is behind all this, tell me in irc, in pm on the forum, or in this thread, but i don't understand your responses to my posts in general or what you're getting at- i really don't. in how many howto's has someone replied "why reinvent the wheel? *link*" or anything of the sort? you're much more likely to see "this may also be helpful," which doesn't imply that something was pointless to bother with.
Open up own thread in appropriate header ...supply all background & hardware advisories ?

IMHO - It is not needed to specifically draw attention "for use of others" as that is what the correct
Forum Header & search utilities do best.
given that this is becoming a trend, maybe i should just run all my posts by you, first, since you seem to be going to extra trouble to marginalize them? we can avoid everything you disapprove of or think is unimportant or irrelevant to you. usually, i post what *i* think is important.

and sometimes, yeah- it proves not to be. so what? until i can tell the future, please let me know what you think of pre-approving all my posts. then YHO can have the proper amount of weight on all i write :|

if you're this critical of everyone on this forum, then i retract my comments. i'm still bewildered, however. if anyone else thinks my posts are pointless or disingenuous, please let me know here or by pm, and i will cease to bother you with my unneeded posts.
sadly, it is not possible to separate politics from free software. free software - politics = unfree software.

User avatar
Pizzasgood
Posts: 6183
Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 20:28
Location: Knoxville, TN, USA

#14 Post by Pizzasgood »

I've enjoyed them. Keep 'em commin'.
[size=75]Between depriving a man of one hour from his life and depriving him of his life there exists only a difference of degree. --Muad'Dib[/size]
[img]http://www.browserloadofcoolness.com/sig.png[/img]

User avatar
Gn2
Posts: 943
Joined: Mon 16 Oct 2006, 05:33
Location: virtual - Veni vidi, nihil est adpulerit

#15 Post by Gn2 »

Amish

Why should it be appropriate in your eyes, I.E. To critisize Puppy development philosophies - yet take offence at others opinions?

The Bash to Dos "How -To" is self revealing :
Do you honestly consider you touched on all relevant commands -
or explained in more concise details relating to anything ?
As you had hoped then attempted:

My view - if any "official documentation" may be supplied -
That is preferrable to reliance on own shaky memory or flawed logic
It is the poster who will be led astray chasing dead-ends otherwise !
.
All forums :? contain such HOW TO examples - and all should be submitted to moderators for editing
review before being posted as "Official Guidelines" tacitly approved by the distribution.
~ Any mistakes therein - who takes flack over it ?

I hate to refer to any for a new user - only to belatedly note:
The link was fatally flawed or even dangerous
(Yes - the "inadvertantly dangerous" have then been reported)
Often they still remain as time bombs to inflict more damage to unwary !

Not sure now where the "optical problems" impression came from:
Perhaps here:

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 4[quote]if you're this critical of everyone on this forum[/quote]
If you look again - I am ! And first apply all relevancy to myself ...

http://catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Then ask: -
~ Where best to post
~ Will any header be searched for solutions for others
~ Is all content I supply as suggestions only accurate as possible ?

Informality is fine for frivolous topics - NOT :evil: if they relate to CLI specifics
= When a user is in dire need of directly supplied solutions or where they may be found !

However - to take refuge in old "Political Correctness Strategies"
Or throw out feelers -

Code: Select all

  i will cease to bother you with my unneeded posts.
Do & react as you want - We can all try live to own values
No more, ........... hopefully never less.

Nothing worth doing should be taken for granted - just as Puppy developers work hard to improve the end results -
So should all who want to participate in any manner.

User avatar
Flash
Official Dog Handler
Posts: 13071
Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 16:04
Location: Arizona USA

#16 Post by Flash »

Gn2 wrote:
Amish wrote:if you're this critical of everyone on this forum
If you look again - I am ! And first apply all relevancy to myself ...

http://catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Then ask: -
~ Where best to post
~ Will any header be searched for solutions for others
~ Is all content I supply as suggestions only accurate as possible ?
If I were you, Gn2, I would add a requirement for readability to that list. Maybe it's just me, but I find reading your posts a tough slog. I know, I'm no English Major myself, but at least I try to follow the rules of grammar and sentence construction, as best I can remember them from grade school. I like to think that my writing flows easily enough that it doesn't get in the way of grasping at least the main point(s) I'm trying to get across. What do you think?

(By the way, I don't recall seeing any How-Tos you've written. Can you give us a link to something you've written? Anywhere on the web will do.)

amish
Posts: 615
Joined: Sun 24 Sep 2006, 23:15

#17 Post by amish »

>> Why should it be appropriate in your eyes, I.E. To critisize Puppy development philosophies - yet take offence at others opinions?

if the opinions are simply repeated attempts to single me out for what i see as no good reason, they're as worth bringing up in my book, as any other problem.

if i see a problem with something, i consider commenting, too. everyone does that. clearly you do, and if you can criticize every post you see a problem with that i've written- then obviously, i'm equally justified in pointing out a potential philosophical problem, by your own statement- No?


>> The Bash to Dos "How -To" is self revealing :
Do you honestly consider you touched on all relevant commands -
or explained in more concise details relating to anything ?
As you had hoped then attempted:


My view - if any "official documentation" may be supplied -
That is preferrable to reliance on own shaky memory or flawed logic
It is the poster who will be led astray chasing dead-ends otherwise !

shaky memory? i tested every single example! i use dos regularly.

i explained my logic for writing that howto in detail.

do you honestly think MOST howto's start out touching ona ll relevant commands? i know which dos commands are most vital to dos use... and included some that some people that have used dos don't even know.

i figured that any problems or suggestions for the the howto would be posted to the howto, this is what i've seen with ALL the howto's - i've read 80% of them, and made mine according with what i saw. you're not being fair in the least.


>> All forums Confused contain such HOW TO examples

and it's time *we* had one, too, IMHO.


>> - and all should be submitted to moderators for editing review before being posted as "Official Guidelines" tacitly approved by the distribution.

there is NOTHING about this in the howto section. there is also nothing that says the howto has been officially approved by anyone- the howto like the wiki and everything else is a community effort. you simply put something up, and people comment. normally they don't in essence say "this is useless, go here INSTEAD."


~ Any mistakes therein - who takes flack over it ?

you know what? my handle is RIGHT THERE AT THE TOP! just like every other howto.


>> I hate to refer to any for a new user - only to belatedly note:
The link was fatally flawed or even dangerous
(Yes - the "inadvertantly dangerous" have then been reported)
Often they still remain as time bombs to inflict more damage to unwary !

i cannot comprehend this part of what you said. if you think i should not link to the howto from my sig, then i will remove it- the idea of protecting linux users from an utterly unflawed (feel free to point out A SINGLE ERROR, i doubt you'll find one) howto (it's short to keep it simple, i don't know what it lacks, except that i know a lot of dos commands that aren't there because i don't- as of yet- know EVERY *puppy*linux-vs-irrelevent-non-100%-compatible-linux, as those covered in OTHER tutorials- equivilent of said (less vital!) dos commands.

all of this should be obvious, let alone to you, who has obviously given it some thought.


>> Not sure now where the "optical problems" impression came from:
Perhaps here:

from other people, and from my own failed iso write. it strikes me as a serious issue. i'm sorry if we don't agree on what's important and what isn't. i realize these things are subjective- i'm totally unsure that you do.


>> if you're this critical of everyone on this forum

If you look again - I am ! And first apply all relevancy to myself ...

in fact i did look, and i could not find any instances of you being this critical of anyone else. i am still trying to understand why you're singling me out of things that seem unapplied to ANYONE ELSE on this forum.

but i'll keep an eye out, and as i said- if this is the usual "Gn2" experience, then i'm not so hurt as i'm not getting some "special treatment" from you. if it's really not personal, then i'm not personally offended.

i am still bewildered, for all the other reasons i mentioned (this post, above)


http://catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Then ask: -
~ Where best to post
~ Will any header be searched for solutions for others
~ Is all content I supply as suggestions only accurate as possible ?

to hell with http://catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
esr is an asshole, and the people that wrote that page (which i spent half an hour reading, but finally got bored and decided it was b.s. maybe 1/2 to 2/3 through) is written by self-rightous twats that think they can be that way to anyone just because they're helpful to some people.

being a tech doesn't give you the right to be a jerk... you may be a jerk, and you may get away with it, and you may be helpful, but the *right* is never there.

while i have no trouble with some nettiquite tips, and while that beyond-encyclopedic thesis isn't wholly unfair or useless, it's far too one-sided and boils down to obvious things.


without subjecting myself to that INSANE page again, if anyone but you really feels i'm posting in the wrong subforum, i already put a great deal of thought into what i post, where. if after this i still fail, there is the way you responded, or- the more reasonable thing- simply say: "this post would have been better in _____ forum"

but that's not at all what was done.


>> Informality is fine for frivolous topics - NOT Evil or Very Mad if they relate to CLI specifics
= When a user is in dire need of directly supplied solutions or where they may be found !

again, you're not offering ANY constructive or specific tips. i attempted to post that howto in the most useful, simple, least confusing form i could imagine. i thought it was good. lobster said he'd like to see something changed, but gave me no clues or examples as to what sort of difference would be good.

you disagree that the howto was well done, and yet instead of being clear on that, you simply redirected to a place that may not contain relevant information that works in puppy.

i disagree too. i think it WAS well done. that fact that you don't doesn't mean that it wasn't carefully thought out. you may think it was sloppy, that's fine as an opinion. i have always been regarded (in person) as a good teacher, have taught many skills to many people in person and over the net, and consider myself more than qualified to write a useful tutorial.

again, if you disagree, it might be better to MAKE A SUGGESTION. use specifics- and please keep in mind that your way isn't necessarily the only good way.


However - to take refuge in old "Political Correctness Strategies"
Or throw out feelers -
Code:
i will cease to bother you with my unneeded posts.
Do & react as you want - We can all try live to own values


thanks for the permission! i was operating under the assumption that was was indeed free to do things my way, have for the most part (i think) allowed everyone (including barry et al ) the same, have gone out of my way to be clear on that, and any other misunderstandings may simply JUST HAPPEN sometimes.

i am a PERSON, i do have FEELINGS, and when i am really trying very hard to figure out why someone is going to so much trouble to needlessly criticise what i do, here and there, without any truly useful advice (or any tips i'm not well aware of and already taking into consideration) then yeah- i might make a point with a hint of drama like "well, if i'm so unwelcome..." i'm making a point there.

and if i'm not a great problem to your community, and i'm being helpful in any way whatsoever

then you REALLY NEED TO CUT ME SOME FREAKING SLACK


>> Nothing worth doing should be taken for granted - just as Puppy developers work hard to improve the end results -
So should all who want to participate in any manner.

and yet, no matter how little i take for granted- it seems clear to me that someone is going out of his way to take for granted that i'm not- in fact- taking it for granted.


please bear in mind in the future that it's not possible for everyone to do their best as well as your personal best, that it doesn't mean they aren't trying, that it doesn't mean it won't be good enough, and give people a little room to do better, before calling their efforts worthless, eh?

i mean i'm not speaking in tongues here, at least SOMEONE knew what i meant. i already read / reread / look for ways to be more clear. in the end, we're not all professional authors and well paid doctors of computer science, for christs sake. but we try our best. that's the best i/anyone can do. damnit.

Locked