Blue Pup V6 Released 11th Oct 2014 32-bit

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ETP
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8 Gbyte image

#41 Post by ETP »

Hi Volhout ,

A genuine non-fake, empty, in spec stick sold as 8GB (8,000,000,000 bytes) actually equates to a usable 7.45 GB and hopefully would have no bad blocks reducing it below that figure.
The world is however, awash with totally fake sticks and manufacturer’s rejects marked as 8GB but whose true capacity would probably be in the region of 2.0-7.0 GB.

With heavy use an ideal stick’s capacity may reduce if cells fail. As far as I know there is no over-provisioning in sticks as there is with SSDs.

If an image of a particular stick is made it will be an exact copy of that stick including the data, partition table and MFT. It then does not really matter if that image is compressed by 50% or 90% as once you have decompressed it to place the image on another stick, it will attempt to return to its original size. In the absence of any 7GB sticks the next size up (16GB) seems to be the only solution at present.

All of this paints a confusing picture with lots of potential for failure. It is very frustrating and little wonder that BK has made mention of an ISO albeit in connection with zram.

With regard to your USB2 question, this Pup boots quicker and live running seems just as quick. It really flies when installed to USB3 or better still HD/SSD.
Regards ETP
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gcmartin

Simple need for anyone who builds QUIRKY6+ for PUP community

#42 Post by gcmartin »

@ETP, this the a departure from your mission of PUP distro evaluation and testing because it narrows into the problem of trying to merely use a USB vs covering the distro's offering in service to community users.

I would not like to derail in trying to address the problem of what to do with the image so that this system (in fact any system using the QUIRKY-TAHR6+ approach) can be loaded for booting.

But, since we are here (and hoping that some developers who would follow this path of delivery) I will share one view starting with a question: Using an image of a system which has been compressed using a particular compression technique, what should a developer publish so that there is a reasonable guarantee that his distro will boot 99-100% of the time?

Not speaking for @BarryK, when he presented this departure of system delivery from traditional ISO I envision that he finds that system performance from the usual RAM based DVD and frugal methods not all that superior to a "full" installation, If indeed that is the case (I for one have not measured this), then this is an easy discrete manner to move the community to an equivalent performing distro, yet have it be portable too via USB.

If on the other hand, if he was looking at, say, my asking over the years to take a newly personalized configured running system and run some utility that turns that running system into an exact image which can be booted in the future from this image, then this could be viewed as both a step for developers and users alike.

Then again he may be looking at the potential rise in use of Blu-ray and USBs and considering a solution which could map a running system to those portable devices as well as being perfectly at home on a permanent hard-drive as well.

Dunno! ??? !!!

I can say as I have found, this new delivery and its setup will work. It is different. It has not been fully explained what it is hoped for by going to this new delivery model. But, I can see compression for a deliverable and an attempt to simplify versus having to learn "hybrid" which @JamesBond and @Kirk have been mastering in FATDOG6+.

Further, it should have @BarryK, yourself, and every other developer to articulate/publish the "base system requirements" to have a reasonable (99%) expectation of getting a system to boot and perform as they foresee. More and more Puppy developers in the recent years are stepping up to the plate on providing this kind of information at their distro's announcement. But, there sometimes is oversight and this Quirky approach is one on them which needs a better reflection of safe requirements to boot.

Summary
In this case, without addresses the shortfall problem, of 8GB USB, publishing that the recommendation is 16GB stick while showing what will be seen upon completion of USB stage, will assist and get the user to a more reasonable successful booting on these Quirkys which incorporate BarryK current view of migrating the community to a "full" installation on a portable (or permanent) USB device versus to an ISO or to an existing HDD partition, which would be just as practical in achievement for booting.

For example, until this new approach is further perfected/matured, let just tell users that they need a 16GB or larger USB drive and that the process will destroy all existing information that exist on the USB in producing a BLUE/Quirky6+ system.
Hope this helps

tony
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#43 Post by tony »

Hi ETP,

i've finally got a bootable system on a usb stick after a few more failures.

I used a 16 Gb stick and after a failure with it, I looked at the formatting in detail with gparted. I found it had a few K bits unformated at the front and use gparted to move the formated section to fill the space on the stick.

After this it worked. I use a netbook and the windows are too big for it, but had no trouble getting on to the internet. Found the metro screen a bit strange especially as it was too big for the computer but at least it's a start.

thanks a lot. Tony

gcmartin

#44 Post by gcmartin »

Thanks @Tony for this update.
tony wrote: ... I used a 16 Gb stick and after a failure with it, I looked at the formatting in detail with gparted. I found it had a few K bits unformated at the front and use gparted to move the formated section to fill the space on the stick.

After this it worked. ...
@ETP and other QUIRKY6+ distro developers: Is there a possibility that some version of the "dd" command needs to be run prior to execution of the "xz" command to prepare the USB stick for the needs of the xz expansion?

GParted has a habit of the default of MB vs Cyl mode of operation as well as leaving an untouchable header area in front of the primary partition it creates. Could this area be also responsible for wrongful preparation of USB for this technology that @BarryK introduces?

Wondering ...

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rufwoof
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Re: BLUE should allow touch device user to navigate its services

#45 Post by rufwoof »

gcmartin wrote:To step back for a moment, we all need to consider what has been happening for the past decade started probably in a big way by the old Palm device. This progressed into Nokia, iDevices (Apple), Blackberry, Android, and Windows. Along the way, came Chrome OS and now browsers looking to get into users hands in a very consistent way as time progresses and user experience coalesce around touching something to activate it.

ETP is helping by presenting those who for one reason or another are used to "touching" something to activate/initiate a desired function.

We can help by testing and offering ideas that would help as touch continues to provide users an acceptable way of interacting with an intelligent system to make some needed information present or some activity present for use.

None of us are going to be able to stop the, now, 3.5 billion touch oriented devices in use in the world each day, not to mention the many of us who have been users of cell touch devices in an ever increasing way. The industry has gotten this movement to make easy for both vendors, product builders, and users to function. Some of my friends who said they would NEVER buy/use those new technology phones/tablets few years ago, now have them as they joyously demonstrate how they use it for something they find practical. Soon there will be over 7billion smartDevices before the end of 2015 which we touch, on the way to over 20billion before the end of the decade.

Thus, if BLUE lives up to what is offered, it would service, equally, users who prefer non-touch and also those who use touch...again, equally at home for each type of user's PC.
Totally agree gcmartin.

Take my basic/crude setup as an example :

Slacko 5.7 on a old AMD64 3500+ with 1.5GB RAM. Savefile 120MB, 92MB free

This video took around 10 minutes to make and another 10 minutes to upload to youtube. No sound (no editing either so all real-time) as it was all done using just a mouse http://youtu.be/au065NWZJDA (best viewed at 720 resolution full screened). With something like VNC server running under Slacko and a tablet running vnc client typing text could have been (a lot) quicker).

Simple options of :

Sitting at the PC with keyboard and monitor (standard desktop)
Sitting in the couch with the TV as the monitor and controlled by a wireless mouse.
Sitting in the couch with a tablet and vnc connection to PC
Out and about using a tablet with vnc connection to PC

Whilst BluePup looks really impressive, does it actually improve efficiency and interaction (typing a document, sending a email etc.).

EDIT: Just noticed the uploaded youtube/video doesn't show the sneekylinux's video when I visited that webpage during the recording, it did however display OK at the time. Guess that xvidcap struggled to keep up (it was compressing on the fly - asking just too much of my minimal (dated) system).
Last edited by rufwoof on Thu 20 Mar 2014, 23:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Billtoo
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Blue Pup V1 & V2 (Released 13th March 2014)

#46 Post by Billtoo »

I installed icewm + icewm themes from PPM, exited to the prompt and
did xwin icewm, then rebooted after making a couple of changes to icewm preferences.
Some key assignments have changed but it's working pretty well I think.

Exiting to the prompt and doing xwin jwm puts it back the way it was.
Attachments
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ETP
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Blue Pup (V2 Released 13th March 2014)

#47 Post by ETP »

@ Tony,
Hi ETP,

i've finally got a bootable system on a usb stick after a few more failures.

I used a 16 Gb stick and after a failure with it, I looked at the formatting in detail with gparted. I found it had a few K bits unformated at the front and use gparted to move the formated section to fill the space on the stick.

After this it worked. I use a netbook and the windows are too big for it, but had no trouble getting on to the internet. Found the metro screen a bit strange especially as it was too big for the computer but at least it's a start.

thanks a lot. Tony
Thanks for filling in another piece of the puzzle. With a netbook you may need to reduce the global font size to 78. Restart X then in the browser, use ctrl in combination with the plus and minus keys to adjust to taste. Further options include slightly reducing the JWM & GTK themes font point sizes but adjusting the global font size will probably suffice.

The Metro interface is best run at 3 or 4 rows as in Billtoo’s last shot. The intention is that you pan left and right by moving your mouse scroll wheel back and forth or use two fingered swipes on the touch pad.

@ rufwoof,
Whilst BluePup looks really impressive, does it actually improve efficiency and interaction (typing a document, sending a email etc.).
Not surprisingly, I believe that it does given the combination of panel and global key combinations. ALT+E to launch email is a good example but I find launching the panel followed by the down arrow key then enter even more convenient. I must say I enjoyed your video and admire what you have done with Slacko

@ gcmartin,
let just tell users that they need a 16GB or larger USB drive and that the process will destroy all existing information that exist on the USB in producing a BLUE/Quirky6+ system.
My current thinking is to add a “known problem
Regards ETP
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rufwoof
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#48 Post by rufwoof »

I've attached a couple of images of vnc running on both a phone and a tablet (both are running Windows).

Its amusing how some who are concerned about security and the potential for the likes of the NSA to have a backdoor entry via the Windows operating system - often fail to appreciate that there are potential backdoors inbuilt into the CPU http://www.realvnc.com/products/viewerplus/#outofband


Out-of-band KVM

Technicians no longer need rely on a functioning operating system and network drivers to take control of a computer. VNC Viewer Plus can connect to a supported computer with Intel® Core™ vPro™ technology out-of-band, so that more complex issues, such as OS failures and boot problems, can be diagnosed remotely.
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8-bit
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#49 Post by 8-bit »

I just tried using the linux method to install BluePup v2 on an 8gig PNY flash drive with 7.6gigs shown as free on the fat32 partition.
There were no unallocated space at the beginning of the partition either.
The install failed to boot.
But I did the install using Slacko 5.5 frugal install with a 1.2gig slackosave file that had a fair amount of space left on it.
After doing the xz --decompress.......
with sync, which I made into a script so I was sure to get it right before taking the plunge, I noticed that the free space in my slacko save file had all but disappeared as well as the processor usage had maxed out according to the taskbar icon.
Being a glutton for punishment, I am going to repartition the flaswh drive and try it again.
I have a backup of my pupsave file, so I can fall back on it if I for some reason need to.
I do not know what tricks the xz command does in that it creates a f2fs partition along with the fat 32 partition.
I do not have the means of checking the contents of the f2fs partition as I do not have the tools installed to do so.
Anyway, I will check back when I get it working.

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#50 Post by jeff-nelson »

I wouldn't install Adobe Flash or Thunderbird. Chrome comes with its own Pepper Flash distribution which is far, far more secure than any Adobe build. Thunderbird/Seamonkey/Firefox are just not at all secure according to a few dozen security studies in the last 5 years.

If you want to make a Chromebook-like build, you should just go full Google.
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ETP
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Blue Pup (V2 Released 13th March 2014)

#51 Post by ETP »

Hi jeff-nelson,

This Pup only attempts to emulate a Chromebook in terms of speed.

With regard to security, I work on the basis that there is no such thing as a secure O/S, keeping nothing on my PC that I would not mind being in the public domain. There is utterly no reason to blindly believe that the systems behind the internet sites of banks, shops or any financial institutions are anything but wide open and as such are susceptible to both internal fraud and external attack. IMHO telephone banking is preferable to on-line banking as if something goes wrong the bank cannot blame your lack of security or make out that your PC must have been breached. If shopping on line the best that can be hoped for is to limit the risk by using a dedicated prepayment card with a limited amount on it rather than a credit or debit card.

Interesting quote from a discussion on actual stick capacity versus advertised capacity.

Memory sticks and hard drives for that matter are sold like broadband. We give you up to 20MB bandwidth actually means that 99.9% of customers are lucky to get close to 8MB. The only people that get the full bandwidth are those that live in a tent no more than 4 inches from the exchange and are fed by a platinum cable immersed in a bath of liquid nitrogen that’s wrapped in the finest yak wool hand stitch by Tibetan monks. Never met one myself but they must exist.
Regards ETP
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#52 Post by 8-bit »

What do I need to install in Slacko 5.5 to be able to view the contents of the f2fs partition? When I try to mount it, I get a message of the file system type as being unsupported as to a needed add-on.

Also, it just does not seem right that one would have to use Windows to install a linux OS.

And why was the jump made to using f2fs? Why not use e3fs or e4fs as most Puppy OSes already have the means to read and check those types of file systems?

Back when I installed Quirky, I did a work around in that I redid the f2fs partition to an ext4 partition and then uncompressed the image file to that partition. And that worked for me at the time.

I mean is an f2fs partition required? Or is it just jumping on a new type of file system? It is also my understanding that the f2fs file system is still in the alpha stage of development.
Last edited by 8-bit on Sat 22 Mar 2014, 23:01, edited 1 time in total.

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#53 Post by 8-bit »

After a second attempt at creating a bootable USB stick with blue, and seeing the drive icons change from sdd1 to sdd1 and sdd2 with the popup info window on sdd2 show it as an f2fs file system, I installed f2fs-tools and did a check of that partition.
The report ended up with a fail and I am attaching it as a text file.

Also, even though the boot flag was set for sdd1, it never showed up in my computers boot selection menu.
I could get that usb stick to show be instead, setting the boot flag to sdd2.
But naturally, without the kernel being loaded, the boot failed.

The report is for your consideration.
Attachments
f2fs_report.zip
The zip extension is fake! Read the file as a text file.
Done with fsck.f2fs /dev/sdd2
(3.78 KiB) Downloaded 905 times

slavvo67
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#54 Post by slavvo67 »

Hi 8-Bit:

Unfortunately, I'm certainly not the one who can answer your questions. However, the f2fs file system was initiated by BarryK as he advised this file system is less abrasive to USB drives. You may wish to check out Barry's blog on the matter. I tried to search it but I couldn't locate it again.

Best,

Slavvo67

tony
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#55 Post by tony »

Hi,

I've been using upup3.9.9,2 for my f2fs formating, you need a late kernel to see it.

Blue Pup has a tiny fat 16 partition up front for booting.

When I succeeded getting Blue Pup onto a 16Gb stick I had 8Gb unused at the back.

My solution was to move everything out of the second partition to backup. Delete second partition using Gparted, then putting in a new f2fs partition to fill stick, Then moving the backed up folders and symlinks back in.

Seems to work but couldn't download Firefox. I need "Nosquint" and it doesn't work in Seamonkey.

Regards Tony.

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ETP
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Blue Pup (V2 Released 13th March 2014)

#56 Post by ETP »

@ 8-bit

BarryK was the first to see the potential of f2fs which is designed specifically for solid state memory and quicker than ext3 or ext4. Please see the thread I started back in February 2013:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=687182
01Micko went on to script some of my early efforts then in July 2013 took it even further. (Well worth studying)
http://01micko.com/blog/blog/2013/07/12 ... ash-drive/

At this point in time f2fs is quite mature although some of the tools lag behind. The report you posted is an example, as the error is spurious. In QT Barry used f2fs developing upon the work by 01Micko & JAMESBOND.
I am convinced that f2fs is not to blame here. If it were there would have been no bootable sticks produced with the 8GB image.
One of the reasons for using the 8GB image approach and Windows rather than a revised *usfs.xz file was so that Blue Pup “might
Regards ETP
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#57 Post by 8-bit »

As I earlier stated, when I start my computer and am given the option to press function key 12 for a boot menu, The flash drive/stick does not show up at all in the selection under the drives option. If I fool with the f2fs partition as to setting the boot flag on it, I them get it listed in the boot menu.
But I know that will not work to boot it. So with the fat32 partition boot flag set, (I checked), I get no listing for it in the boot menu.
And this PC will boot from a flash drive as I have did it before.
So at this point, I am assuming that one has to use windows to install linux to the flash drive and to me, this just does not seem right.
It is like saying "Windows is needed for an install of this linux derivative."
And that sucks as some of us do not even have windows on our PCs and have went to a linux only system.

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ETP
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Blue Pup (V2 Released 13th March 2014)

#58 Post by ETP »

@ 8-bit,

Please see this post which explains why I offered both Windows & Linux methods but prefer the Windows method.

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 457#765457

If there is an issue with an 8GB or larger target stick it will fail to boot regardless of the method used.

In the face of a failure it is best to attempt to return the target stick to its virgin state and then try your preferred method again.

In Linux use Gparted to do that: (Use a 16GB stick if available)

1. Start by clicking on “device
Regards ETP
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Volhout
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F2FS

#59 Post by Volhout »

Smart guys, Samsung....

There used to be a time where flash memory was reliable (NOR flash).
To achieve a lower cost (less silicon area) NAND flash was used for the larger flash devices.
But NAND was less reliable. Therefore special controllers where developped that could manage the unreliable NAND flash, and make it more reliable.
These controllers are inside the USB stick, so from the outside the USB stick appears to be reliable...until the moment that the controller can't repair the NAND memory anymore.

But NAND keeps getting less and less reliable with the shrinking geometry. So the simple controllers inside the USB stick can't keep up.....

Let's call the OS to the rescue....

Now we have F2FS, so we can have totally unreliable flash memory behave like it is reliable. Layer upon layer of error correction....

That brings me back to my original question:
Why can't we make a 7 Gbyte image ? Just "throw away" one Gbyte, at the benefit of 99% succesfull installs ? Or does the tooling for creating this image only work in multiples of 4 Gbyte ?

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ETP
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#60 Post by ETP »

Hi Volhout,
That brings me back to my original question:
Why can't we make a 7 Gbyte image ? Just "throw away" one Gbyte, at the benefit of 99% succesfull installs ? Or does the tooling for creating this image only work in multiples of 4 Gbyte ?
The amount of data inside the image is only about 1.6 GB but a practical minimum partition size would be about 6GB the closest thing being an 8GB stick. If you image an 8GB stick the image returns to its original size regardless of the quantity of data within it. Just putting the image on a 16GB stick has worked for some but not all people. That is the equivalent of your 7GB suggestion. The excess 8GB can later be formatted and utilised.
There are other methods of install but none as user friendly as flashing an image onto a stick provided it works. The stick size dictates the image size.
Regards ETP
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