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FatDog: flashdrives && #@$%ing secure boot...(Solved)
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jtwdyp


Joined: 04 Oct 2013
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Tue 25 Feb 2014, 17:21    Post subject:  FatDog: flashdrives && #@$%ing secure boot...(Solved)  

Hello Fatdog users. I'm still fairly new to Puppy in general.

I've only ever installed frugal {and/or *hybrid} puppies to flashdrives. By "hybrid" I mean the type of frugal that rcrsn51 called hybrid in:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=729138#729138

I've only ever used Slacko 5.6 & Quirky Precise 5.7.1

And I've only ever touched one {expletive deleted} Win8 machine. One on which I'm not even allowed to try to modify it's UEFI settings. Oh{deleted}!

I'm looking for a portable Linux that I can boot on any pc. {I can easily settle for limiting that to 64bit machines.} But I'm concerned that sooner or later I may need to boot up on a machine with Secure boot enabled.

I read that since fatdog64-620, fatdog has secureboot covered.
And I've located
ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/mirror/os/Linux/distr/fatdog/iso/Fatdog64-630.iso
so I'm hoping this means I can make a flashdrive that will boot puppy on any pc I'm likely to use.

But I need to be able to tell my sister that her Win8 will still boot the same when I leave, as it did before I visited her. And When I read what I could find about that it sounded like I'd have to modify the UEFI settings in order to get it to boot.

How well has Fatdog64-630 got that covered. I mean Do I have to thoroughly understand UEFI and/or Secure boot to boot up on a win8 machine?

I don't suppose the process of making such a Secure bootable Flashdrive Fatdog is as easy as running the universal installer on a flashdrive plugged in to my own bios based PC?

Is there a CURRENT How-To??

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Last edited by jtwdyp on Tue 04 Mar 2014, 03:10; edited 1 time in total
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Ted Dog


Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 2315
Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Tue 25 Feb 2014, 18:33    Post subject:  

much much easier.. if the first partion or whole flashdrive is fat32 most are. Then just copied files from iso to flashdrive is all you need to do. The Trick is the also open up the EFI image and copy that whole as folder EFI.
When windows boots it looks for EFI recovery flashdrive in USB port and if EFI folder is found it boots... But not to recover windows8 but boot linux.. Surprised

Works great easy to remaster and since grub.cfg file is read write now all sorts of odd ball frugal installs are possible. And FAST
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Ted Dog


Joined: 13 Sep 2005
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Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Tue 25 Feb 2014, 18:37    Post subject:  

note this does not have to be gpt or mbr style boot or disk layout. I added a mbr just to be able to boot other non UEFI systems. I have one big flashdrive that will boot on everything but Macs and that is a work in progress..
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jtwdyp


Joined: 04 Oct 2013
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Wed 26 Feb 2014, 04:44    Post subject:  

Ted Dog wrote:
much much easier.. if the first partion or whole flashdrive is fat32 most are. Then just copied files from iso to flashdrive is all you need to do.
I take it you mean "all the files inside the fatdog iso? Question I know there must be a howto for that around here somewhere, In fact, theres probably a tool for that already in every one of my "puppy" flashdrives. {which I'd know if I'd ever got around to playing with it, Embarassed <I just never ran low on blank dvd-r>}...

Quote:
The Trick is the also open up the EFI image and copy that whole as folder EFI.
For this part, I definitely need step by step a how-to, starting with "what EFI image??

Quote:
When windows boots it looks for EFI recovery flashdrive in USB port and if EFI folder is found it boots... But not to recover windows8 but boot linux.. Surprised


So once I successfully make this fatdog flashdrive, I just insert it into a win8 machine, and windows itself will find and boot fatdog for me... Very Happy
And on bios based machines with older versions of windows that don't look for an EFI recovery flashdrive, All I gotta do is convince the bios that the flashdrive has a higher priority in the boot order than the hard drive. Just like I would for my Slacko flashdrive... slick!

Quote:
Works great easy to remaster and since grub.cfg file is read write now all sorts of odd ball frugal installs are possible. And FAST
So {I take it that fatdog is using grub2...} and that by editing this grub.cfg, I could add an temporary entry to boot an installed linux on a machine with a broken bootloader? {Who needs supergrub?}

Ted Dog wrote:
note this does not have to be gpt or mbr style boot or disk layout. I added a mbr just to be able to boot other non UEFI systems. I have one big flashdrive that will boot on everything but Macs and that is a work in progress..
And that is exactly why I'm wanting Fatdog Exclamation

Seriously though, How big a flash drive do I need Question And if I use a larger one this way, can I use the extra gigabytes as a file shuttle?

PS: Just had a Twisted Evil thought. I think you said that only the 1st partition had to be fat32... So I don't see why I couldn't let UEFI machines boot Fatdog the way you describe, but add an mbr pointing at a classic grub on another partition which could have choices to boot fatdog (and/or even some 32bit compatable Puppy on a third partition)... The classic grub menu would only boot on bios based machines, but as long as it's presence on the other flashdrive partitions won't stop fatdog from booting on the win8 machine...

Wait... When I setup my other puppy flashdrives, I had to set the bootable flag
on the Puppy partition... Can I do that to two partitions on the same device?
Well it was a fun thought anyway... And I suppose I could use some windows tool to change the bootable flag if it wasn't currently pointing at the one I needed. hmmnn I gotta go.

I need to go download that iso... Now!

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Ted Dog


Joined: 13 Sep 2005
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Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Wed 26 Feb 2014, 08:58    Post subject:  

if you already are running any other puppylinux then you just click on a downloaded iso file from the download folder and it opens automatically as a folder to copy files inside to some where else. The somewhere else is first or only fat32 flashdrive partions. After you copy or even before you can click on the file EFI.img anr that too will automagical open as a folder to copy contents to same fat32.
May or may not be important But I noticed windows8 recovery the EFI folder was all caps so I did the same..
Once running fatdog64 which has a gpt and efi aware partion tools. Not a good idea to set a mbr or boot flag on default windows8 machines.. You can add mbr and set boot flag to same partion. ie your flashdrive will function best and last the longest if you do not redo layout keep it as is fat32 from factory. Adding mbr and boot flag are not redoing layout. I used syslinux as boot loader for 32bit and bios machines the cds use that so easier to cut paste from isolinux.cfg.

All in all it would be best to burn Fatdog64 to disc and use that to setup flashdrive
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Ted Dog


Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 2315
Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Wed 26 Feb 2014, 09:14    Post subject:  

oh also the syslinux will also boot 64bit fatdog64 as well its not a either or. I find it useful in that I have two 64bit machines and and only one boots UEFI well technically my minimac also boots with its oddball version of EFI... in 64bit.. but well I will worry about that boot issue when I rediscover how I booted my mac with Fatdog64 v 520 ...
But do so with version 630. Very Happy
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Ted Dog


Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 2315
Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Wed 26 Feb 2014, 09:26    Post subject:  

yes you can divide up flashdrive to do what you wish I have done so on a flashdrive I had subdivided and lost speed as a result.. In that one
8G fat32
15G NTFS
8G f2fl ( or whatever that flashdrive friendly filesystem is called for Quirky6 )

Divided up that way so I could easily backup flashdrive on to two BluRay discs.
8+15=23 or size of one bluray plus any boot into fatdog64 I would add
then second
15+8=32 for second bluray backup.

the NTFS would be copied twice Wink its windows so double backup always a good idea.
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jtwdyp


Joined: 04 Oct 2013
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Wed 26 Feb 2014, 17:59    Post subject:  

Ted Dog wrote:
if you already are running any other puppylinux then you just click on a downloaded iso file from the download folder and it opens automatically as a folder to copy files inside to some where else. The somewhere else is first or only fat32 flashdrive partions. After you copy or even before you can click on the file EFI.img anr that too will automagical open as a folder to copy contents to same fat32.


I tried that first, from my Quirky Precise Puppy 5.7.1, Where rox did open the fatdog iso like you say, But it didn't know how to open the "efiboot.img"... So I aborted and followed this advice:

Quote:
All in all it would be best to burn Fatdog64 to disc and use that to setup flashdrive


I thought that maybe fatdog had something my precise puppy was missing. So after I burned the iso to CD-R, I booted it. It was a good thing the CD's boot menu includes that:

"For problematic Nvidia cards - disable nouveau driver"

selection... Once I was able to boot to something besides a blank screen, I again mounted the hard drive partition with the downloaded fatdog iso. And once again opened the iso with rox. but even when I clicked on the efiboot.img file while running the fatdog cd, what I get looks like this:



So I poked around the menu, looking for something like the universal installer to see how it would want to install to a flash drive.

But I couldn't find any of these (This snapshot is from my precise puppy):



I can copy the files from the iso to the flash drive. And while I can't seem to "open" the efiboot.img to copy only it's contents to a "folder" I'd have named EFI or EFI.img...

I can do this:
Code:

 /mnt/sdc1
PuppyUnderTree#-> mv efiboot.img EFI.img
 /mnt/sdc1
PuppyUnderTree#-> ls
boot.catalog  fatdog.png  grub.cfg  initrd        isolinux.cfg  vmlinuz
EFI.img       fix-usb.sh  help      isolinux.bin  vesamenu.c32
 /mnt/sdc1
PuppyUnderTree#->


But I'm not sure that's what you meant...

I mean maybe that's all I'd have to do to get win8 to boot it for me on an UEFI machine. Don't know, can't test that easily. But it's certain that the resulting flashdrive wouldn't boot on my bios based PC.

What am I missing?

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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4238
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Wed 26 Feb 2014, 22:04    Post subject:  

What @Ted Dog is sharing is accurate. He is one of the few/many in Puppyland, who has extensive knowledge when it comes to booting FATDOG or LigthHouse from various media; namely HDD/USB/DVD/Blu-Ray and the myriad of filesystems that are used on these media types.

One of your early question that might help you get on-board is provided in this helpful website. Once you read that and couple with the understanding that @Ted Dog has already provided, your sailing should smooth out considerably.

Hope this helps

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jtwdyp


Joined: 04 Oct 2013
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Thu 27 Feb 2014, 04:41    Post subject:  

gcmartin wrote:
What @Ted Dog is sharing is accurate. He is one of the few/many in Puppyland, who has extensive knowledge when it comes to booting FATDOG or LigthHouse from various media; namely HDD/USB/DVD/Blu-Ray and the myriad of filesystems that are used on these media types.


Never doubted that. I knew I was the one who was missing a piece of the puzzle. But not knowing what that missing piece was, I didn't know which question to ask...

Quote:
One of your early question that might help you get on-board is provided in this helpful website. Once you read that and couple with the understanding that @Ted Dog has already provided, your sailing should smooth out considerably.
Doubtless, I will be rereading his words many times.
Until eventually, at least some of it will have to sink in...

Nice link by the way, No doubt I'll be rereading that a few times as well.

But in the mean time I tripped over the cause of most of the confusion. There seams to be a significant difference between the menu you get when you click on the menu button on the task bar. And the one you get if you right click on the desktop. That's why I couldn't find the installer, I started with the wrong menu.

I now have fatdog on a bootable flashdrive. Very Happy Whether it will boot on a win8 machine is not yet known... But it's a good start. Smile

But I'll have to wait till I have some time to spend on my desktop to add things to it such as the devx, midnight commander, and hopefully some wireless network manager that will work on my laptop.

The simple something method in both Slacko and Precise worked for me.
But I can't get the one in fatdog to work. I'm not sure why. But I think it might have something to do with having to use a usb wireless adaptor because my laptops built in wireless is so defective not even the Vista that came preinstalled was able to use it.

I wonder if there is a wicd pet? {anything that doesn't make me wrestle with wpa supplicant has a chance...}

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rover

Joined: 06 Dec 2007
Posts: 32
Location: Upstate New York, USA

PostPosted: Thu 27 Feb 2014, 16:10    Post subject: toshiba S50-a
Subject description: uefi boot with win 8.1
 

hi all,
i have been following along this line and have done everything suggested.
no luck.
in order for me to boot fatdog, i have to enter the bios, turn off secure boot and turn off uefi. then i can use fatdog, but then my wifi card will not work so without the internet, i am in the dark more than usual.

jtwdyp: i am guessing you got yours going.

i must be missing something.
where does the efi.img come from?
i see one in the Fatdog files , but when i put the Fatdog iso on the 4g usb dongle, it will not boot .
i should say that when i try to boot from usb, i have gone back into the bios and turned secure boot and uefi back on.

is it possible that the Toshiba Bios setup is different?

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jtwdyp


Joined: 04 Oct 2013
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Thu 27 Feb 2014, 22:26    Post subject: Re: toshiba S50-a
Subject description: uefi boot with win 8.1
 

rover wrote:
hi all,
i have been following along this line and have done everything suggested.
no luck.
in order for me to boot fatdog, i have to enter the bios, turn off secure boot and turn off uefi. then i can use fatdog, but then my wifi card will not work so without the internet, i am in the dark more than usual.
I hear you about the internet... Out of curiosity, are you using a wireless connection with DHCP (aka: automatic addressing). Because then you can use the "wpa_gui" {look for the icon on the taskbar... But if you need static IP or if your using a wired {Ethernet} connection, then you need to deal with the "Network Wizard"

http://distro.ibiblio.org/fatdog/web/faqs/Networking.html

Speaking for myself, I can't figure out how to get the "Network Wizard" to connect my desktop to it's wired DHCP connection on eth0 {sigh}

But after I loaded the matching devx sfs file, the wpa_gui was able to configure my laptop's wireless connection nicely...

Quote:
jtwdyp: i am guessing you got yours going.


Only halfway {so far} Right now I'm working out how to get it working for my bios based machines. Once I got it the way I like it, I'll back up the save file and follow the uefi installation instructions. {see below} if that results in something that will boot on a win8 machine, I'll feed it the savefile with all my customizations...

Quote:
i must be missing something.
where does the efi.img come from?
i see one in the Fatdog files , but when i put the Fatdog iso on the 4g usb dongle, it will not boot .
i should say that when i try to boot from usb, i have gone back into the bios and turned secure boot and uefi back on.

is it possible that the Toshiba Bios setup is different?


gcmartin included a helpful link in his post above... What you might have missed is that in that document there is another link pointing at http://distro.ibiblio.org/fatdog/web/faqs/uefi-flashdrive.html which I'll bet is the "something" your missing.

Read it carefully. And if you decide to do it, follow the instructions very carefully. I've had a minimal understanding of dd for years. And there is a very good reason why some joke that dd stands for disk destroyer... Be very careful that you point it at the right device...

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Ted Dog


Joined: 13 Sep 2005
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Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Fri 28 Feb 2014, 02:28    Post subject:  

I think you and later I discovered a click action bug.. I was floored that your click on the efi.img file would even popup the archive program since its a mismatch. That img file is not compressed. It was easy as a click in version 620 however while doing other things I also experienced same mismatched having archive program just appear when not expected. So I click in object again and same thing..
You did e everything right but got different results because I did this on the prior version month ago.
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jtwdyp


Joined: 04 Oct 2013
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Fri 28 Feb 2014, 07:32    Post subject:  

Ted Dog wrote:
I think you and later I discovered a click action bug..
Well if your being aware of the bug that you understand better than I, helps eliminate it from next release, then it was worth a little frustration on my part...

Quote:
You did e everything right but got different results because I did this on the prior version month ago.


Glad to know that...

BTW since that is what happened, I proceeded to use the installer from the fatdog cd to make the fatdog flashdrive I'm working with now on my bios machine(s) I don't think that one would boot up on a win8 box.

So I'm curious if you think it would work that AFTER I finish getting it set up the way I like, That I should then take a 2nd flash drive, and follow the dd process outlined in
http://distro.ibiblio.org/fatdog/web/faqs/uefi-flashdrive.html

Then add an mbr bootstrap somehow, {there must be a dd howto for that somewhere...} so that I can also boot it from my bios machine.

Then use the fix-usb.sh mentioned in the above link, to salvage the rest of what will most likely be an 8 gig flashdrive.

Which would give me the room to add both the devx sfs file &
the fd64save.ext4 from the current bios only fatdog flashdrive.

Should that result in a flashdrive with a fatdog all setup the same as this one, but that would boot on either a bios based PC OR on an win8 64bit PC Question

And, now that I think of it, would I be right that it would also boot on an ordinary EFI {non-bios} PC that never had secure boot (or win8). Or would that require a third boot strategy?

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Ted Dog


Joined: 13 Sep 2005
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Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Fri 28 Feb 2014, 11:44    Post subject:  

dd method works and I used it with fixusb.sh to regain space. But that method is not flexible ie you can't easily change or combine other boot or sister different puppylinux distros on same USB. Its fatdog64 and if you do make a change then you commonly lost the extra space and what ever was stored on it.
Also you are forcing a layout onto flashdrive that causes it to perform slower and is not at all good for long term lifespan.
If you already used a dd method to your flashdrive then damage is already done so you can't make it worst... That is why I did divide up a large once fast flashdrive into partions and am using it against my own advice.. I will never again dd or change from how ever it left the factory... The efi boot and mbr reuse factory layout. so Performance and longevity are maintained.
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