Gtk sucks because...

[jamesbond]

I dont want/need the overhead of a whole vm just to draw some interactable pretty pictures.

If that's all you're creating, you're right not to use a vm; must be why nobody is using Android.

Which is the reason why Android phones must run on CPUs faster than 600 MHz (anything less than that and the UI becomes sluggish - on a 320x200 screen?!) and was/is power hungry. The only reason Android looks fine now is because newer phones and tablets are running multi-core GHz CPUs ... and the only reason why it doesn't drain the battery like crazy is because of improvement on CPU fabrication.

Regarding resources, there have been a few minor improvements in the last 20 years; check it out.

<sarcasm>Yes, sure</sarcasm>, which is why many enterprise Java software can't run properly on 32-bit OS anymore (because they will run out of memory during initialisation phase).

[technosaurus]

Re: resource usage.

I am currently working on a full desktop environment that uses gtk2/3 that should allow a full desktop to run in <32mb by using standard unix principles and common linux facilities.

The concept is pretty simple. Use the gio file watcher on a set of directories and perfom actions based on the changes. I am not the 1st to have this idea, Plan9 developed a specialized file system for it, but here is my rendition of it:
Start a gtk process that looks in directories for:
Gtkbuilder files. ... Gui
Shell functions. ... Shell interaction.
Desktop bg. ... Backdrop and noninteractive desktop widgets
Tray applets. ... Icon, tooltip, left/right-click actions
Desktop icons. ... Different actions for .desktop files, plain files, symlinks ...
Plugins (for compiled functions) ... Things needed by the gui for complex actions or just to run with any gtk dependencies without using another process.

Still working on desktop icons and plugins and ideally I would like to patch glade to prefix default widget names with the project name to minimize conflicts (similar to namespaces in other environments)

Granted, some behemoth apps (office suites ...) will be difficult to port, but may be useful as a salvage pile for code.

Gtk is not required to do this, any toolkit can be used, so long as the facilities are supported, or wedged in. I may write a few toolkit independent wrappers like inotify/kqueue replacement for the slow gio implementation.

[simargl]

.

[technosaurus]

There is no good reason a theme which works on one minor version, should fail on the next minor version. Gtk theme devs and their users have a legit complaint there, do you think linus would allow such things with the kernel? I your couple of man hours "improving" code cause other devs thousands, how long till they fork or abamdon ship?

[jpeps]

<sarcasm>Yes, sure</sarcasm>, which is why many enterprise Java software can't run properly on 32-bit OS anymore (because they will run out of memory during initialisation phase).

I haven't noticed any problem on my old Dell Laptops...none at all.You can initialize VM cache size. I don't own a 64 bit system. Re new hardware....yes, that was my point. Development tends to move forward, not backwards.

[jpeps]

Re: resource usage.

I am currently working on a full desktop environment that uses gtk2/3 that should allow a full desktop to run in <32mb by using standard unix principles and common linux facilities..

That's good news. Ideas into action. Far better than grumbling about everyone else's work. What is the release date?

[mikeb]

Development tends to move forward, not backwards.

Perhaps the question is , is it moving to a better place?
Change for changes sake or genuine improvements...

mike

[technosaurus]

Leading is like trying to push a rope. Its easier when you have opposing factions pulling equally on their ends.

Gtk currently has a weaker faction on the conservative (stability) side, causing it to go askew.

[jpeps]

Development tends to move forward, not backwards.

Perhaps the question is , is it moving to a better place?
Change for changes sake or genuine improvements...

mike

So far, Moore's law is still in effect. What hasn't been radically transformed?
Change is always painful, but looking backwards is an early sign of senility.
Probably people would be better off without cellphones, but they're here to stay (and for now, so is Android...Dalvic VM)...and yes, the hardware can handle it.

[mikeb]

Change is always painful, but looking backwards is an early sign of senility.

Hmm so your only method of discussing issues is to insult people. I am not a luddite. I embrace new technology ... its the stuff that made me become an electronics engineer.

We are discussing changes with no purpose. Altering slightly the name of a function thats already clear enough is not progress... thats just pissing people off. Adding frivolous features that causes instability is not progress.

Making your code twice the size for no change in functionality is not better.
On the latter why have amazing hardware developements but if the shitty software is just going to negate any gains in performance... that is not progress. Having 12 year computers that can do pretty much what the latest and greatest can is a bad sign. I update and upgrade when there is a benefit to do so...I always have.

The subject here is gtk2 devs messing around in an unproductive way. You appear to be trolling and trying to press buttons for your entertainment..... definately not progressing the discussion.
As a hardware bunny I so often come accross butt heads in sweaty nylon shirts that were 'software experts' ... they are still polluting the world of computor technology....charging over the odds for bad crap rehacked from someone elses work. They abuse language to fool the majority... just like lawyers and such have done before them. I love them all And insulting is such fun isn't it.

have fun as you seem to be doing

Mike

[sunburnt]

Mike; Very clear and concise, what I refer to as rearranging deck chairs, perhaps on a Titanic.

So many Titanics that have not yet met their icebergs. This seems to be a trend in many things.
Rearranging these stodgy parts is truly reinventing what`s probably a poorly designed wheel.

My thoughts have usually been forward, dump the legacy crap in favor of real improvements.
.

[Q5sys]

Pure QT puppy would be an interesting project, obviously a bit heavier though, but then compared to gtk3 (which does need css for theming, and is a nightmare) then not so.

As for lighter pups there's xlib, fltk, sdl and others. I remember Thunor jesting about an sdl-dialog, it would be right up his alley being an old school games programmer.

Been thinking about this. Now that LXDE is going with a QT base, It'll be interesting to see how much heavier it might be in the future to have a QT puppy. I prefer the Openbox/LXDE combination for my system... so it's something I plan to keep my eye open for.

In total size, how large is the GTK stuff that puppy needs? I know the core QT libs that I used on Puppy4 was only 4mb. (Not the full qt package, the libs only) Dont know what it'd be for the more modern 5 series.

[jpeps]

Change is always painful, but looking backwards is an early sign of senility.

Hmm so your only method of discussing issues is to insult people. I am not a luddite. I embrace new technology ... its the stuff that made me become an electronics engineer.

I propose a suggestion. I wonder if it's possible to make suggestions without trashing the work of thousands of other developers who are far more capable then yourself. Your characterization of other people (e.g., "butt heads in sweaty nylon shirts", etc, etc) seems more what this thread is about then anything helpful. Java sucks, QT sucks, Android sucks..., nobody knows what they're doing but us, etc. Are you a software developer?

If you'd like to revert to older versions of Gtk...go for it. Techno proposed posting some of his work. Great. Set up some bench marks and let the testing begin.

BTW/ try attending a developers conference, where a panel of developers discuss their work with one particular android widget, and you mighty better understand what the "changes" are all about.

[mikeb]

Who mentioned superiority .... the butt heads might be very capable intelligent people but some are not considering the effect on their actions on others...a 'it works for me' approach seems to be the root cause of frustrations here. I and others here do write or alter software and we all seem to have a similar grievence towards unnecessary api changes.

Ask anyone who has written a large amount of software for python 2 how they feel about version 3.

Ask a systems admin how they feel about the huge increase in the profile size of Mozilla applications and how they no longer fit in the allocated personal space normally found in a large network enviroment.

Anyway I never gave anything the suck treatment ... I simply joining in with the notion that perhaps we generally need to take stock of what is happening and see if progress is being as beneficial as we are supposed to believe and perhaps just maybe someone might help it along its way.
Its ok to rant if frustrated and its healthy to question the status quo.

The puppy connection is because its a place where people try out ideas.... and you don't have to have official qualifications to do so. Indeed an uncluttered perspective can often bring innovations.

Couple of examples.... many lay programmers have made windows xp boot and run from a usb stick .... Microsoft and their wealth of highly qualified staff maintained this was impossible. In fact some amazing work with that system has been done by Joe public. Chief systems admin at a college I worked at could not come up with a simple log of requests from a web page after weeks of asking...indeed he seems to just sit there trying to look like he was doing something every time i approached him..... his junior did it in the end in a couple of hours after his boss left for another prestigious job. So perhaps I have a slight justification in suggesting that highly paid experts do not always deserve the credit that they recieve.
Indeed its the superiority complex I encounter all to often that is so heart warming..... I might have done some clever stuff myself...you don't know...you assume I just slag off everything with no real justification for doing so...indeed you are suggesting that all contributers to this thread have not a clue about the subject in hand. So I assume you are the all knowing one and I bow to you while digging into my humble pie,

still, have fun and never take yourself seriously

Mike

[jpeps]

Indeed its the superiority complex I encounter all to often that is so heart warming..... I might have done some clever stuff myself...you don't know...you assume I just slag off everything with no real justification for doing so...indeed you are suggesting that all contributers to this thread have not a clue about the subject in hand. So I assume you are the all knowing one and I bow to you while digging into my humble pie,

still, have fun and never take yourself seriously

Mike

Well, you're making a lot of incorrect assumptions, and this discussion isn't about you.

[mikeb]

I wonder if it's possible to make suggestions without trashing the work of thousands of other developers who are far more capable then yourself. Your characterization of other people (e.g., "butt heads in sweaty nylon shirts", etc, etc) seems more what this thread is about then anything helpful. Java sucks, QT sucks, Android sucks..., nobody knows what they're doing but us, etc. Are you a software developer?

Hmm I think drawing the conclusion that you consider me to be thick is pretty easy to do from this and I believe I am at liberty to defend myself after such an accusation.

No the thread is not about me...and not about you either..... topics tend to get lost when personal insults fly in

mike

[jpeps]

Hmm I think drawing the conclusion that you consider me to be thick is pretty easy to do from this and I believe I am at liberty to defend myself after such an accusation.

I wouldn't expect that you could join a panel of computer engineers to discuss employment of recent innovations to programmers. In fact, I suspect that you might not understand what they were talking about,since you're also not a programmer.

[big_bass]

I have moved on to other things

and I used to hate gtk myself too the code still looks ugly though
but if you put a little make up on her you can take her to the party

until I found a way to embed it with BaCon

I wrote numerous GTK2 and GTK3
and even glade examples

here
http://sourceforge.net/p/baconproto/wiki/Home/

I show many links to the original source code that were ported
and many customized widgets

it can be done a different way and for me it finally became easy (easier)

Joe

[mikeb]

I wouldn't expect that you could join a panel of computer engineers to discuss employment of recent innovations to programmers. In fact, I suspect that you might not understand what they were talking about,since you're also not a programmer.

Making assumptions once again... and no i will not pidgeon hole myself for your benefit....as to my ability to contribute to such a discussion that's something I really do not have to prove to you. Your argument seems to be...'do not listen to these people because they do not have the right official job title'... did anyone ask yours?

Anyway why not discuss points raised rather than perpetuating petty mud slinging?
Why break backward compatability for apparantly non beneficial changes like function naming?
Why not continue functions as a sub set when a language is expanded?
Please give us a rationale behind those actions....

mike

[amigo]

@big_bass, Hey Joe! Long time no see -hope you are well.