The world has changed

[Volhout]

Q5sys wrote:

Would you mind making a list of the applications in Slacko 5.6 that you feel need "to go"? Id be interested to hear your opinions.

Volhout wrote:

About Slacko, and "what to remove"...... actually I just last night used the "remove buildin packages" tool and was looking what I could do to ThinSlacko to make it smaller.... I removed something 20+ items from the menu's. Things like "ftp server, 2 editors (geany, and abiword are enough), file difference checkers, some process viewers, download complete websites, pzchmview, etc.. all these tools that are for programmers. Nice tool by the way, it also removes the menu items.
Some items are also double. There are 2 programs that take a snapshort from the screen. Just pick one.... 2 programs that inform you how much disk space there is left, 2 scientific calculators, a lot of network tools that I never used. So even in thinslacko there is meat to cut (for me at least).

Q5sys wrote:

Ok Now I'm confused. First you were talking about adding in more applications, now you're talking about taking them out?

Don't be confused....I may have been confused in interpreting "need to go" as "need to remove" in stead of "need to add".

Maybe there are others that want to dive into this topic a little more, but for me 01Micko's explanation that Barry will never sanction a FAT puppy. That closes the door. And for me that closes the discussion, as if Barry said it himself.

[stu91]

What puppy needs is a solid foundation, none of this constant reinventing the wheel every x months - it would make it so much easier for the community to add to, build for and develop on.
Puppy doesn't need a 'fat' version it needs an 'lts' version.

[greengeek]

I like the re-inventions, and I love the variety... Admittedly it does make it difficult when a developer moves on to something else and leaves a user with an "almost working" system - however I do feel that it is the responsibility of the user to track down the missing info, or missing programmes for themselves if the dev has not seen fit to do so.

What the dev offers is a platform upon which the user can add extras if available. I don't think anyone should require a dev to be chained to one version for ten years.

But if the dev chooses to add so much functionality that the pup becomes fat - so much the better! The fatter the pup the more likely it will have the programs the user wants in the long term.

I guess Barry will develop the core puppy to be as small as possible, and to be able to harness the latest source files from whatever is perceived to be the most appropriate source (I guess that is what "woof" is about..)... but if some other dev then takes that foundation and nourishes it till it becomes an obese pup thats great! More programs does not need to mean slower performance.

Vive la fatties!

[sunburnt]

I`m with stu on the "reinventing the wheel" thing, I`ve seen lots of that here.
Basically it amounts to wasted effort, definitely not productive or desirable.

My main thought was all the good ideas and code that`s come and gone from Puppy.
If a few folks ( probably with download sites ) had repositories of donated code.
Most sites are apps., but there`s some Puppy tweaks to be found at some of them also.

There`s several threads about directions and needed fixes. This is definitely top drawer.

Some folks here are pillars of Puppy development, I`d think they`d be ready for consensus.

### What do the variant builders think of forming a "sudo fork" of Puppy. Mod. apps. really.

Scripts and apps. that alter Puppy`s setup and behavior, amounting to fixes and "new wheels".
.

[jpeps]

### What do the variant builders think of forming a "sudo fork" of Puppy. Mod. apps. really.

[Karl Godt]

Talk is cheap. Show me the code.

Linus

https://lkml.org/lkml/2000/8/25/132

[Q5sys]

What puppy needs is a solid foundation, none of this constant reinventing the wheel every x months - it would make it so much easier for the community to add to, build for and develop on.
Puppy doesn't need a 'fat' version it needs an 'lts' version.

I agree. This is why I was in favor of sticking with Slackware for our base. Slackware is solid and is supported for a very long time. Every release of Slackware is in effect an LTS release. I know people who are still supporting Slackware 13.0, from 2009.
Ubuntu with its 6 month cycle just changes to much. If we are going to go with a Debian derivative we should just stick with Debian. It's a MUCH more solid and reliable community and Distro. Not to mention all the random stuff Canonical is doing lately with their own Package Format, their own display server, focusing on mobile, etc.

If we have a solid base then we can start to focus on some of the issues that have been a problem in the past. It also means we have resources to go to when things go awry.

I've been happy with the minor and incremental change that the Slacko5 series has had. I dont know if 01Micko has ever released delta files for people to update, but that could help users stay current without too much effort. But since the entire 5.x Slacko series has been based on Slackware 14, its still compatible with itself, aside from some minor issues here and there and kernel versions.

In a perfect world, I'd like to see the upcoming 14.1 Slackware version be the next base. Then as packages are updated we can simply update them in the Repo. As new Kernels become available we can update just those as well. Slackware 14.0 has already been around a year, before its first minor revision, and its been rock solid. The Slackware 13 track lasted over two years.
Slackware has a history of stability and longevity.

But I'm a fan of slackware, I always have been. So I realize I'm a bit biased. But I'd be content with a Debian Base as well.

Once we have a strong foundation we can then work on improving in the areas we can improve in. Since we will be able to standardize things, well be able to make some progress in ways that we havent in the past.

[simargl]

.

[jpeps]

Puppy Linux will never change because its author doesn't want it to change, also BarryK doesn't visit this forum, so if you want to see some progress you'll need to fork it.

When Barry made Puppy based on Ubuntu he wrongly assumed that his pet package manager will be able to install deb packages from Ubuntu's repository directly without problems, and that is not true. It works for simple packages like leafpad, but it's broken with everything more complex and that problem regular, non-technical user can't solve.

Barry didn't assume anything of the sort. Puppy is a small distro, so everyone understands you may need additional libraries for complex packages. It's fairly simple to figure out what you need and where to get it, but if that's too much trouble, install Ubuntu.

[Monsie]

simargl wrote:

Puppy Linux will never change because its author doesn't want it to change, also BarryK doesn't visit this forum, so if you want to see some progress you'll need to fork it.

This seems to be a provocative statement; one that could easily get a rise out of others...

My thoughts are that if you want positive recognition and respect from your peers (the members of this community) it would be in your best interests to:

• tell the truth,
  lose the attitude,
  listen to the veteran developers and users,
  try being more helpful and less critical toward the Puppy Community.

just some food for thought,
Monsie

[sunburnt]

The Q: Should something work, or be continually cobbled together in never ending repetition.?

The answer is obvious, though most refuse to embrace the change. Change is good.!

[koulaxizis]

For people who want a fat Linux distro OOTB there are plenty of choices out there. I do not understand why so many Puppy users are so obsessed with "defending" Puppy and "converting" other people to Puppy. I choose to use Puppy for the same reason I choose to drink the beer I drink -- because I like it, and I could not care less who does or does not agree with my choices.

I have proposed and installed Puppy in many friends of mine. Some of them are graphic designers. They can easily create art for Puppy. Some of them are web designers. They can help with the webpages. Some of them are translators. They can help with OS, Apps and Wiki translations. Some of them are programmers. They can help with the development. Some of them are bloggers. They can write about Puppy. Some of them are on not-related jobs (like child-care for example) but they are the real average users who can report bugs, propose ideas, help make Puppy friendlier.

Puppy needs newcomers if we want it to stay alive and evolve. We have seen distros on the past dying due to lack of users and support. This could easily happen to Puppy one day. Each distro doesn't need only a few dedicated developers and a core of few permanent users. It needs to be more "open" to everyone...

If a team of people got together they could take a Official release (like Slacko), and create a ton of SFS packages so users could easily update and expand their system.

But has anyone in the community stepped forward to do this? Not yet sadly.
For puppy to grow and encompass more users, we need more people to get involved in the creation. Right now the development work is spread too thin. If I had more time, I'd be willing to pitch in, but I dont. I'm behind in the dev work I'm planning to do with Slackbones and Lighthouse.

I'm willing to help guide someone who is willing to put forth the effort to expand the offerings of Slacko.

How can we tell which is an "official" release. I, for example, could say that official release it's a Puppy without binaries from another distro. You could say "Slacko" and someone else could say "precise". If there is no a main guideline, how can we work together and do something that matters?

You say that you work on Lighthouse and Slackbones. There are so many derivatives that noone knows where to put his energy and good will to help! Users and developers are devided on one million different sides!

- many pups have a PPM that has links to UBUNTU or SLACKWARE. Very nice. Do you really expect that my mom knows how to install Stellarium from UBUNTU packages in Precise.... come on..... wake up.

- The PPM does not show in any way what program does what. There is a small explanation, but if my mom needs a program to edit a text file, she would not know where to start.

Puppy PPM is really too tricky, even for more experienced users some time. And i believe it's a huge problem that there are so many "unofficial" (and usually hard to find) repositories out there. We should improve PPM somehow and gather all apps into "official" or easy-to-be-added repositories.

I would embrace a FAT puppy that has a selection of packages that is well thought out. Actually I don't even think users care about what internet browser they use. It should work. So they do not want XX choices in PPM they don't know. Chromium, Chrome, Opera, Firefox, Seamonkey, Midori, ...... They want an icon, or menu entry that says "internet".

And my proposal is to make such a puppy once every 2 years. And the PPM should focus on programs that appeal to users (i.e. Stellarium or a Bridge game). Devx is not needed. USERS don't need an ftp server. But they will expect the PC to function in a windows-alike environment until they really believe in Puppy to be a replacement. Hence...SAMBA.

Menu structures could be very simple ... since 50% of all the programs that are distributed now with Puppy are developer oriented. They should go. Seamonkey is preferred web browser because it has a HTML editor.... haha ... users don't write HTML.... They don't know what it is. Maybe they recognise the word from MS-WORD in the list "save as HTML".

I couldn't agree more!!

We all have strong opinions about different pieces of software.

That's true. But the same happens with the current releases... Example: I don't want Seamonkey, i prefer Firefox. I don't want Galculator, i prefer Xcalc. I don't want Take A Shot, i prefer PupSnap. And so on... But we have to make some compromises and think what will be best for the average user.

I think since i started using puppy it has gone from T2 > Ubuntu > Slackware > Ubuntu + all the derivatives and various base distro versions. This constant flip flopping makes it very difficult to do anything with puppy as you more often than not end up doing the same work over and over:?

That's what i'm talking about! Compiling tends to become a huge waste of time if not everyone can use the apps.

Removing programs probably will have no advantage, since most take up very little disk space. Some programs, like ftp, will be very useful later on when you learn how to use it. A different approach: included programs have been carefully screened before being included. Try a few out, it's what makes puppy interesting. The advantage of inclusion by the developer is that they work, and are well tested and integrated. That's why puppy is SOOOOO much superior to something like TinyCore.

So many menu entries are confusing and not desirable by some users (including me). Why have Galculator AND Xcalc? Why have e3 AND mp? Why... why... why...

What puppy needs is a solid foundation, none of this constant reinventing the wheel every x months - it would make it so much easier for the community to add to, build for and develop on.
Puppy doesn't need a 'fat' version it needs an 'lts' version.

I`m with stu on the "reinventing the wheel" thing, I`ve seen lots of that here.
Basically it amounts to wasted effort, definitely not productive or desirable.

Totally agree!

When Barry made Puppy based on Ubuntu he wrongly assumed that his pet package manager will be able to install deb packages from Ubuntu's repository directly without problems, and that is not true. It works for simple packages like leafpad, but it's broken with everything more complex and that problem regular, non-technical user can't solve.

Because PPM is broken, and users can't install packages with it, they are forced to use forum to host and share PET packages, for example this http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 259#719259, 10 pet packages for 10 Puppy versions, that is just one big waste of time. And how can you believe that any of pet packages on this forum doesn't have post install action set to erase all of your disk data?

That's one of the most correct things that have been told here!!

The Q: Should something work, or be continually cobbled together in never ending repetition.?

The answer is obvious, though most refuse to embrace the change. Change is good.!

Change and evolvement are good things, especially on technological matter like this one...

What i think:

- We need a "fat" LTS release every two year with updated and well-tested apps for average users and newcomers
- We have to improve PPM and gather all these wandering apps over the net into "official" repositories
- We must decide which Puppy will be "main release" (fat or minimal) and create tones of packages, scripts and support material for it

This is just my opinion. With love and infinite respect for the distro and all the Puppy community.

[bark_bark_bark]

We need a "fat" LTS release every two year with updated and well-tested apps for average users and newcomers

Again, a "fat" puppy is going to be a pain to upload to puppy's main server (Ibiblio). (Ibiblio is known to be slow all the time.)

Also the "fat" model works for major distros, but I doubt it is a good model to follow here.

Also some apps, I'm sure will be a dependency nightmare for BK.

EDIT:

Puppy PPM is really too tricky, even for more experienced users some time. And i believe it's a huge problem that there are so many "unofficial" (and usually hard to find) repositories out there. We should improve PPM somehow and gather all apps into "official" or easy-to-be-added repositories.

I was a new comer once, and I found no trouble using the PPM. The PPM is simple and easy to use. Plus, it doesn't take an hour to load the DBs.

[mavrothal]

What i think:

- We need a "fat" LTS release every two year with updated and well-tested apps for average users and newcomers
- We have to improve PPM and gather all these wandering apps over the net into "official" repositories
- We must decide which Puppy will be "main release" (fat or minimal) and create tones of packages, scripts and support material for it

This is just my opinion. With love and infinite respect for the distro and all the Puppy community.

Cristo,
There are several threads like this one (usually 1-2 per year).
You must realise that the appeal of puppy is exactly that. A small distro with enough punch that everybody can play with.

For the rest there is a big list of smaller and bigger distros. Usually with ironclad development schemes (usually ignoring user requests unless there is a sufficiently documented ticket) and quite often ignoring or even deleting requests/suggestions in the forums that are out of the development roadmap.
Unfortunately puppy's strengths and weaknesses are interconnected. You either accept it and go on or just fork and continue your way.

[koulaxizis]

Cristo,
There are several threads like this one (usually 1-2 per year).
You must realise that the appeal of puppy is exactly that. A small distro with enough punch that everybody can play with.

For the rest there is a big list of smaller and bigger distros. Usually with ironclad development schemes (usually ignoring user requests unless there is a sufficiently documented ticket) and quite often ignoring or even deleting requests/suggestions in the forums that are out of the development roadmap.
Unfortunately puppy's strengths and weaknesses are interconnected. You either accept it and go on or just fork and continue your way.

I don't want to create another distro, i'm not a developer. The only thing i have in mind is to serve the community and give something back to the wonderful people who have helped me so many times with Puppy issues. That's why i shared Slacko XL, that's why i'm trying to compile, that's why i started reading about gtkdialog, that's why i proposed some ideas. Don't get me wrong, i don't intend to divide users, nor call into question Barry's choices. I just want to know what is Puppy's future and what can we do to make it better.

[kanellia]

I see that there is only reference to the average user so let me be the first one (I think) on this topic to express my mind.
I was one of those people who were asking "where is the button for the internet" and came to learn one or two things more. Then I was shown Linux (Ubuntu to be exact) and realized the possibilities. Unfortunately my PC was not good, it was operating like it was 20 years old so a friend of mine proposed Puppy to me.
When I was first introduced to it I could not wait to end the "tour". I knew a few things but pretty basic ones. However, when my PC was running puppy, it came to life so if I wanted to use it I had to install it. But it was a necessity and it took a lot of time, explanation and patience from koulaxizis (who is the one who introduced it to me) to came to love it and appreciate it.
I learned a lot from puppy but, why can't it be friendlier to the user? Is it going to be so much of a problem to make a fat version official so it will have the support that it deserves?
As for why I (the average user) should be introduced to puppy, first of all because it made my PC work, something that no other distro did for me so I didn't have to buy another PC.
And second of all, now that I learned about it and loved it I try to do my small part to the community, I try and translate some things into Greek so more people can learn about Puppy and its use. I may not be a developer but if you give the chance to more people you may be surprised about the involvement and possibilities that would came out of it. Sometimes it seems like puppy was developed not for users in general but for those few developers that wanted to get their hands into something interesting. Doesn't the average user have the right to use Puppy without reading every little thing on the internet to know how it works?
Also, I now have a new PC and I was having problem with the drivers for my video and audio card. It was too new! So I waited until they were released so I could have Puppy again and not Windows (only you can understand what that means).

So, my PC could never be too old for puppy but it can be too new for it?

Then I learned about all these different distros. It's a pity all these people that have the knowledge and skills to be divided and not cooperate so they can create something together out of love and respect for their distro. I'm not saying to be just one, or to be fat for that matter, but please make it a little less hardcore. For someone that doesn't know much and doesn't want to know so much, just wants his/her PC to work, is pretty tiring.

Greetings,

Kanellia.

[sunburnt]

kanellia ; You speak from the heart and from experience.

Do others hear this? koulaxizis certainly does. Many have voiced this same sentiment.

Stagnation or progress... Which will it be? Hurry hurry hurry, place your votes folks!
.

[Tote]

Aah, I think it's fine as it is. It has something for everyone, newbies, developers, experts, coders.

I can see the logic behind a supported pup version, development, etc, all of that, promotion, but anyone could do that now couldn't they, if they wanted too?

All the extra menu entries, the double this and that's had me wondering why they were all there, most of them are no use to me, so I deleted the entries, burnt another CD, just kept the ones relevant to me, it's Precise 5.6, (I think)(I forget), but I love it, use it every day. It's never failed me yet.

You can chop Puppy up, stick new stuff in, take stuff out, do just about anything, and if you totally mess it up, so what? it's all experience and you just download another iso and start over.

Puppy isn't rough and ready, it's actually very complex, but it has a rough and ready kind of edge that I like. Something will work or it won't, can you make it work? maybe, do you really need it? try it, like it? keep it, don't like it? get rid of it.

What? you can't go wrong. Actually, you can, I have, many, many times, but it doesn't matter; start over, and try to remember what you did wrong last time.

I like the fat pups, but I don't need half of it. I like the thin pups. I download stuff I don't even know what it's for. I can use 64bit but I don't need it. All I need is a browser, abiword, e-mail, music, pictures. That's about it. Everyone has their own needs, it's all good.

I'm not technically minded enough to know what's best out of slackware, debian, or whatever else. A lot of people have their own preferences, that's half the attraction of puppy, pick 'n' mix, min 'n' match, versatility...

I'll shut up now...

[oldyeller]

Hello Everyone,

I guess I will speak my mind if that is all right!! I love puppy for what it has and what it does not have. BarryK has done an awesome job with puppy and I know no one here is saying anything about his work.

What drew me to puppy was the fact I wanted to build my own system, so I started to test different Linux systems out and then I came across PUPPY. I tried different ones at first. Than came across lupu-528, did my first remaster right off the bat and I fill in loved with Puppy addicted you know and now I have learned a lot of code and hacks

BarryK did say that he was thinking about have just one Official release which just might be precise, so once again there maybe only one puppy that he will work on and improve. He does listen and look at what people say about what works and what does not, He does however decide what goes into the final lease of that puppy.

I did for a little while have my wife use it, but she even said that it was hard to understand and there were things in the menu that she had no idea what they were for. So I do understand about the friendliness of puppy to the user.

As Tote said

I can see the logic behind a supported pup version, development, etc, all of that, promotion, but anyone could do that now couldn't they, if they wanted too?

All that is needed is feed back of what will make it easier for a newbi to use and how to go about it. Is that not how Saluki came about, People getting together and sharing what they wanted in an OS. Fatdog or any of there others that went their own way.

I have been thinking about how this can be done so I can get my wife off of Mint and onto puppy. Just start a thread in the projects and start sharing ideas on what should be in it and have 1 to 2 people putting it together with the help of everyone for pets and sfs. This could will be the next pup like Saluki.

Cheers

[R-S-H]

Puppy Linux will never change because its author doesn't want it to change... ... ...

That's true of course, since Barry did made clear he is doing Puppy and he is deciding what Puppy will be (or will be in Puppy). Even though I'm doing the same with LazY Puppy, I'm a bit disappointed about this, because I don't understand some results of this doing.

Example would be: why doing a precise puppy and going back to an older version of geany, since there was already 0.20 in the Lucid (it's now 0.19 in Precise 5.6)

... ... ...so if you want to see some progress you'll need to fork it.

Already done!

When Barry made Puppy based on Ubuntu he wrongly assumed that his pet package manager will be able to install deb packages from Ubuntu's repository directly without problems, and that is not true. It works for simple packages like leafpad, but it's broken with everything more complex and that problem regular, non-technical user can't solve.

Also true, in deed.

That's why I did choose the SFS-Way from the beginning and did never left this path. I still don't use any save file and I'm able to run 527 programs just by clicking a menu entry or a desktop button.

I've added now to this SFS-Way the RoxApp-Way which truly has added some more comfort in using one of my -meanwhile several- LazY Puppy Operating Systems (Kernel from 2.6.33.2 up to 3.2.x based on Lucid528, 3HD 528, Precise 5.6 and LxPup 13.01).

RoxApps are pretty cool!

But, of course: I'm NOT a non-technical user.

Because PPM is broken, and users can't install packages with it, they are forced to use forum to host and share PET packages, for example this http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 259#719259, 10 pet packages for 10 Puppy versions, that is just one big waste of time.

Yes, this is also true.

But hey, since we all do know that these 10 different puppy version are based on 5, 6 or even 10 different Major Distors, it is unable to be shown as a point wherein to critisize Puppy in general. You would also need 10 different install packages in those 10 used Major Distros.

And how can you believe that any of pet packages on this forum doesn't have post install action set to erase all of your disk data?

This is just another reason, why I'm not using .pet packages. Usually I do extract them, have a look into the post install script - then either doing some work to get the stuff done there - removing it and turning the new created .pet package into a .sfs file.

The one and only script that has removed data from my hard disk has been written by myself!

Luckily I did have made a backup the day right before this has happened.