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ardvark


Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 822
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu 15 Aug 2013, 20:42    Post subject:  

koulaxizis wrote:
Wary is targeting users with old hardware who just want to revive their computer to do some work. So let's say that it's OK with the limited software, however it could be expanded a little with light apps.


Hi koulaxizis...

I think this might be true for some folks but I know if Wary was on my personal system, I would like a LOT more choices. I can't be the only one! Laughing

Also, I didn't understand what specifically you download to access your repository. There are several files to choose from after "usr."

Regards...
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koulaxizis


Joined: 17 Jul 2011
Posts: 428
Location: Greece

PostPosted: Fri 16 Aug 2013, 03:12    Post subject:  

ardvark wrote:
koulaxizis wrote:
Wary is targeting users with old hardware who just want to revive their computer to do some work. So let's say that it's OK with the limited software, however it could be expanded a little with light apps.


Hi koulaxizis...

I think this might be true for some folks but I know if Wary was on my personal system, I would like a LOT more choices. I can't be the only one! Laughing

Also, I didn't understand what specifically you download to access your repository. There are several files to choose from after "usr."

Regards...


You are not the only one! Last week i installed Wary and i was disappointed by the lack of applications...

Unfortunately i have no idea how to create a "make file", so i uploaded all the files as they have to be installed in the system (usr/share/ etc).

The easiest way is to get the pet file from http://sourceforge.net/projects/puppystuff/files/Setup/APR/

You can also get the code from https://github.com/koulaxizis/puppystuff/releases and run dir2pet

Or you can try the latest, by downloading https://github.com/koulaxizis/puppystuff/archive/master.zip

The main app is at https://github.com/koulaxizis/puppystuff/tree/master/usr/share/apr, all the rest are menu entries and images.

Hope that helped! Smile

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Snail

Joined: 18 Oct 2009
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Fri 16 Aug 2013, 09:58    Post subject: Another thread about future puppy  

koulaxizis has asked me to post here about a topic on the future development of Puppy's user interface. It's here:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=719666#719666

It is not really on the same topic as is being discussed here but may be of interested to those visiting here.
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ardvark


Joined: 01 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Aug 2013, 18:58    Post subject:  

Hi koulaxizis...

Hey, thanks for your help, I appreciate it! Smile

Regards...
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Q5sys


Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Posts: 1047

PostPosted: Sun 18 Aug 2013, 19:03    Post subject: Re: I could not disagree more  

6502coder wrote:
For people who want a fat Linux distro OOTB there are plenty of choices out there. I do not understand why so many Puppy users are so obsessed with "defending" Puppy and "converting" other people to Puppy. I choose to use Puppy for the same reason I choose to drink the beer I drink -- because I like it, and I could not care less who does or does not agree with my choices.


Psychology 101.
When people like something they want others around them to like it as well.

The problem is that when they try to introduce Puppy to friends, family, colleagues, etc; it falls short on those peoples expectations.

The reaction by these people who want to promote puppy; is to try to force the community to make puppy into what 'others' expect a computer should be. This causes people to try to push features and software that most people don't use; or at the very least shouldn't be included in puppy to begin with. Case in point, the push for SAMBA to be included as a default software package.
SAMBA is not needed by most people, and shouldn't be included in a minimal distro. Yet there are Puppy users that have been on a campaign for years about including it by default becuase it fits 'their opinion' of what should be included.

Puppy is great because it focus on running on older/minimal hardware with the least amount of bloat. Bloat can be added in later by a user, but should NOT be included by default. Lets for example talk about the look and feel of puppy; Theming. Users who want to focus on Puppy looking beautiful could come together and help develop/package different theme options so a user could eaisly change the look of their puppy. But has anyone done that, not really. A user or two has done it, but no real simple options have emerged from the community.
SFS packages are a simple way for users to help expand a regular puppy into new territories. To use my system as an example. I'm using Lighthouse 601 right now. The Base system is right around 200mb. I have an additional 1.4gb of expansion SFS files for all the extra software I'd want.
If a team of people got together they could take a Official release (like Slacko), and create a ton of SFS packages so users could easily update and expand their system.

But has anyone in the community stepped forward to do this? Not yet sadly.
For puppy to grow and encompass more users, we need more people to get involved in the creation. Right now the development work is spread too thin. If I had more time, I'd be willing to pitch in, but I dont. I'm behind in the dev work I'm planning to do with Slackbones and Lighthouse.

I'm willing to help guide someone who is willing to put forth the effort to expand the offerings of Slacko.

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koulaxizis


Joined: 17 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Aug 2013, 01:08    Post subject: Re: I could not disagree more  

Q5sys wrote:
6502coder wrote:
For people who want a fat Linux distro OOTB there are plenty of choices out there. I do not understand why so many Puppy users are so obsessed with "defending" Puppy and "converting" other people to Puppy. I choose to use Puppy for the same reason I choose to drink the beer I drink -- because I like it, and I could not care less who does or does not agree with my choices.


Psychology 101.
When people like something they want others around them to like it as well.

The problem is that when they try to introduce Puppy to friends, family, colleagues, etc; it falls short on those peoples expectations.

The reaction by these people who want to promote puppy; is to try to force the community to make puppy into what 'others' expect a computer should be. This causes people to try to push features and software that most people don't use; or at the very least shouldn't be included in puppy to begin with. Case in point, the push for SAMBA to be included as a default software package.
SAMBA is not needed by most people, and shouldn't be included in a minimal distro. Yet there are Puppy users that have been on a campaign for years about including it by default becuase it fits 'their opinion' of what should be included.

Puppy is great because it focus on running on older/minimal hardware with the least amount of bloat. Bloat can be added in later by a user, but should NOT be included by default. Lets for example talk about the look and feel of puppy; Theming. Users who want to focus on Puppy looking beautiful could come together and help develop/package different theme options so a user could eaisly change the look of their puppy. But has anyone done that, not really. A user or two has done it, but no real simple options have emerged from the community.
SFS packages are a simple way for users to help expand a regular puppy into new territories. To use my system as an example. I'm using Lighthouse 601 right now. The Base system is right around 200mb. I have an additional 1.4gb of expansion SFS files for all the extra software I'd want.
If a team of people got together they could take a Official release (like Slacko), and create a ton of SFS packages so users could easily update and expand their system.

But has anyone in the community stepped forward to do this? Not yet sadly.
For puppy to grow and encompass more users, we need more people to get involved in the creation. Right now the development work is spread too thin. If I had more time, I'd be willing to pitch in, but I dont. I'm behind in the dev work I'm planning to do with Slackbones and Lighthouse.

I'm willing to help guide someone who is willing to put forth the effort to expand the offerings of Slacko.


Hello Q5sys! Smile I believe that you are partially correct. Yes, Puppy is great for being minimal. And yes, Puppy can be easily expanded. But i still think that Volhout's idea is good.

Quote:
"What if ...... under the puppy flag (mainstream, sanctioned by Barry) once in every 2 years, there is a well tested FAT version of puppy. The one for computer users. The one that has it all. This could coincide with a LTS release."


I totally agree on expanding a small Puppy with SFS files but as i discussed with another user yesterday, as far as i know it is supposed to be not a good idea to load more than 5 or 6 sfs files. Sfs are much better and cleaner for the system and the save file. But how can someone load many sfs files without combining them?

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sunburnt


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 5010
Location: Arizona, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Mon 19 Aug 2013, 01:50    Post subject:  

koulaxizis; You`re reading old info. for old Puppy versions. The Boot Manager is old.
We need a law; All web pages must be dated. I`ve read stuff and found it`s 10 years old.!

sfs_load can easily load 20 or 30 SFS files at once due to Puppy using the "aufs" union.
The old Puppies use "unionfs" which is no longer used. So don`t be worried about that.

Complex file systems are slower and less reliable. But aufs has no "real" problems though.
I have said for years now that union file systems are complex, slow, and unnecessary.
.
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koulaxizis


Joined: 17 Jul 2011
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Location: Greece

PostPosted: Mon 19 Aug 2013, 02:18    Post subject:  

sunburnt wrote:
koulaxizis; You`re reading old info. for old Puppy versions. The Boot Manager is old.
We need a law; All web pages must be dated. I`ve read stuff and found it`s 10 years old.!

sfs_load can easily load 20 or 30 SFS files at once due to Puppy using the "aufs" union.
The old Puppies use "unionfs" which is no longer used. So don`t be worried about that.

Complex file systems are slower and less reliable. But aufs has no "real" problems though.
I have said for years now that union file systems are complex, slow, and unnecessary.
.


Ok, my mistake!! I'm not very knowledgeable about technical details, so i have to ask stupid things some times! Thank you for the information mate!! Very Happy

I had the same problem translating the wiki into Greek. Some info are outdated and many links are "dead". We should do something about these thing otherwise novice users like me will be misinformed...

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Volhout


Joined: 28 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Aug 2013, 04:52    Post subject: FAT against SFS/PET
Subject description: is there a choice
 

@Q5sys,

It is exactly the PPM-SFS-PET stuff that requires skills that the average USER does not have. There are various problems.

- when a pup is released a basic PPM is set up. There is a varietey of programs in the PPM that get some basic testing (maybe ?), but my gut feeling is that they are simply compiled using the applicable devx and when no missing libs...OK ready. There is no thorough testing on all pgms in the PPM.

- many pups have a PPM that has links to UBUNTU or SLACKWARE. Very nice. Do you really expect that my mom knows how to install Stellarium from UBUNTU packages in Precise.... come on..... wake up.

- The PPM does not show in any way what program does what. There is a small explanation, but if my mom needs a program to edit a text file, she would not know where to start.

I am not sure about your age Q5sys, but maybe you will have replace "mom" with "granny" and get a better feeling of what I try to explain. And try to get into the mind of people that make a living with the work they do on a PC (running puppy). Every hour they spend on configuring, updating, adding, is a loss of money. It should do the job OOTB. I really appreciate what you do for Puppy linux, but you are in a different group of enthousiasts, you have skills that many don't have. That I don't have, and my mom doesn't. We get confused if a popup says "missing library", and my mom would fetch the telephone book and call the major to find out if the library in het town has closed.

I would embrace a FAT puppy that has a selection of packages that is well thought out. Actually I don't even think users care about what internet browser they use. It should work. So they do not want XX choices in PPM they don't know. Chromium, Chrome, Opera, Firefox, Seamonkey, Midori, ...... They want an icon, or menu entry that says "internet".

And my proposal is to make such a puppy once every 2 years. And the PPM should focus on programs that appeal to users (i.e. Stellarium or a Bridge game). Devx is not needed. USERS don't need an ftp server. But they will expect the PC to function in a windows-alike environment until they really believe in Puppy to be a replacement. Hence...SAMBA.

Menu structures could be very simple ... since 50% of all the programs that are distributed now with Puppy are developer oriented. They should go. Seamonkey is preferred web browser because it has a HTML editor.... haha ... users don't write HTML.... They don't know what it is. Maybe they recognise the word from MS-WORD in the list "save as HTML".

It is a change of mind.

Last edited by Volhout on Mon 19 Aug 2013, 06:04; edited 6 times in total
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Volhout


Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 375

PostPosted: Mon 19 Aug 2013, 04:53    Post subject: FAT against SFS/PET
Subject description: is there a choice
 

Quote:
I do not understand why so many Puppy users are so obsessed with "defending" Puppy and "converting" other people to Puppy.


Pride....

Last edited by Volhout on Mon 19 Aug 2013, 08:28; edited 2 times in total
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bark_bark_bark

Joined: 05 Jun 2012
Posts: 780
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Aug 2013, 08:04    Post subject:  

I think a FAT puppy would be real hard to upload to puppy's primary server. Plus how would we decide as a community what to include?

We all have strong opinions about different pieces of software.

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stu91


Joined: 06 Aug 2012
Posts: 145
Location: England. Dpup. Dell Inspiron 1501

PostPosted: Mon 19 Aug 2013, 08:05    Post subject: Re: I could not disagree more  

Q5sys wrote:
6502coder wrote:
For people who want a fat Linux distro OOTB there are plenty of choices out there. I do not understand why so many Puppy users are so obsessed with "defending" Puppy and "converting" other people to Puppy. I choose to use Puppy for the same reason I choose to drink the beer I drink -- because I like it, and I could not care less who does or does not agree with my choices.


Psychology 101.
When people like something they want others around them to like it as well.

The problem is that when they try to introduce Puppy to friends, family, colleagues, etc; it falls short on those peoples expectations.

The reaction by these people who want to promote puppy; is to try to force the community to make puppy into what 'others' expect a computer should be. This causes people to try to push features and software that most people don't use; or at the very least shouldn't be included in puppy to begin with. Case in point, the push for SAMBA to be included as a default software package.
SAMBA is not needed by most people, and shouldn't be included in a minimal distro. Yet there are Puppy users that have been on a campaign for years about including it by default becuase it fits 'their opinion' of what should be included.

Puppy is great because it focus on running on older/minimal hardware with the least amount of bloat. Bloat can be added in later by a user, but should NOT be included by default. Lets for example talk about the look and feel of puppy; Theming. Users who want to focus on Puppy looking beautiful could come together and help develop/package different theme options so a user could eaisly change the look of their puppy. But has anyone done that, not really. A user or two has done it, but no real simple options have emerged from the community.
SFS packages are a simple way for users to help expand a regular puppy into new territories. To use my system as an example. I'm using Lighthouse 601 right now. The Base system is right around 200mb. I have an additional 1.4gb of expansion SFS files for all the extra software I'd want.
If a team of people got together they could take a Official release (like Slacko), and create a ton of SFS packages so users could easily update and expand their system.

But has anyone in the community stepped forward to do this? Not yet sadly.
For puppy to grow and encompass more users, we need more people to get involved in the creation. Right now the development work is spread too thin. If I had more time, I'd be willing to pitch in, but I dont. I'm behind in the dev work I'm planning to do with Slackbones and Lighthouse.

I'm willing to help guide someone who is willing to put forth the effort to expand the offerings of Slacko.


I think since i started using puppy it has gone from T2 > Ubuntu > Slackware > Ubuntu + all the derivatives and various base distro versions. This constant flip flopping makes it very difficult to do anything with puppy as you more often than not end up doing the same work over and over:?
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Volhout


Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 375

PostPosted: Mon 19 Aug 2013, 08:52    Post subject: over
Subject description: and over
 

The new "puppy project" is Arch linux based. It is not a derivative ...
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Q5sys


Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Posts: 1047

PostPosted: Mon 19 Aug 2013, 09:22    Post subject:  

Volhout wrote:
@Q5sys,
It is exactly the PPM-SFS-PET stuff that requires skills that the average USER does not have. There are various problems.

i think your doing a disservice to most users. i believe that most users do have the ability to do this with a litte guidance and support. I dont believe for a moment that most puppy users are only point-and-click skilled.
Volhout wrote:

- when a pup is released a basic PPM is set up. There is a varietey of programs in the PPM that get some basic testing (maybe ?), but my gut feeling is that they are simply compiled using the applicable devx and when no missing libs...OK ready. There is no thorough testing on all pgms in the PPM.

That is a major disservice to the developers like Micko and others who put a great deal of time and effort into their releases. Everything thats in the PPM for official relases has been tested by multiple people prior to release. Sometimes issues do crop up, but those are usually dependant on another change that a user did on their system beyond just installing a single program via the PPM.

Volhout wrote:

- many pups have a PPM that has links to UBUNTU or SLACKWARE. Very nice. Do you really expect that my mom knows how to install Stellarium from UBUNTU packages in Precise.... come on..... wake up.

I cant speak for Precise since ive never used it, but installing from the Slackware repo in the PPM of Slacko requires a simple search followed by a click to install. This is not a complex process. Using Stelarrium as your example, why exactly should this be installed by default? How many people actually use Stellarium? But back to the point, are you saying that your mother is incapible of installing programs with a few clicks and reading an on screen dialog?

Volhout wrote:

- The PPM does not show in any way what program does what. There is a small explanation, but if my mom needs a program to edit a text file, she would not know where to start.

First off no one should be entering the PPM to edit a text file because this is already built into puppy. When a puppy release is made, and this applies specifically to official releases, most of what a user needs is already installed. Give me an example of a program that is needed that is NOT included in either the default ISO or in the PPM thats needed for most users? Most of what a user would need, and lets keep in mind that you have been speaking specifically about non technical users with not very much skill. What tasks does a non-skilled user need to do thats not included by default in the official ISO?

Volhout wrote:

I am not sure about your age Q5sys, but maybe you will have replace "mom" with "granny" and get a better feeling of what I try to explain. And try to get into the mind of people that make a living with the work they do on a PC (running puppy). Every hour they spend on configuring, updating, adding, is a loss of money. It should do the job OOTB. I really appreciate what you do for Puppy linux, but you are in a different group of enthousiasts, you have skills that many don't have. That I don't have, and my mom doesn't. We get confused if a popup says "missing library", and my mom would fetch the telephone book and call the major to find out if the library in het town has closed.


No one should be trying to run a business on puppy, unless they are skilled with linux, simply because Puppy is NOT a full featured Distro and does not have the support commuity behind it. Anyone trying to do so, is only hurting themselves. There are plenty of Full Service Distros that would be better for buisness uses than Puppy. If someone chooses to run Puppy as their Business OS, im sorry, but its their own fault when they have to spend time trying to do things on puppy instead of focusing on their business. And anyone in this community who pushes Puppy on a business user is doing them a major disservice, since Puppy does not have the software availability nor the support of a full distro like Mint, Fedora, Suse etc. If a user has problems installing programs with Puppy - They need to use a Ditro that is better for their business! Business needs are not met by Puppy unless the user is skilled in Linux. Trying to Force Puppy to be a Business OS takes a great deal of time and i would argue must be custom built to that users needs. A better choice for the user would simply be another Distro.
Dont get me wrong; I love Puppy. But i realize its short commings and where it is not beneficial. Common sense dictates that you use the best tool for the job at hand. Anyone whos not a zealot should realize that means puppy is not the best option every time and in every case. Trying to make Puppy that is a recipe for disaster since no single OS can ever be everything for every user.

Volhout wrote:

I would embrace a FAT puppy that has a selection of packages that is well thought out. Actually I don't even think users care about what internet browser they use. It should work. So they do not want XX choices in PPM they don't know. Chromium, Chrome, Opera, Firefox, Seamonkey, Midori, ...... They want an icon, or menu entry that says "internet".

Again your dumbing down regular users. If users are truly that dumb, they have no business using a minimal linux distro. I believe most people in this community are intellegent people, and simply need someone to guide them along the pathway of learning. Besides, i personally believe that dumning down an OS is a bad idea. But to ask the question again from before. What task/application do these 'I want an internet button' users need thats not included by default in Puppy?

Volhout wrote:

And my proposal is to make such a puppy once every 2 years. And the PPM should focus on programs that appeal to users (i.e. Stellarium or a Bridge game). Devx is not needed. USERS don't need an ftp server. But they will expect the PC to function in a windows-alike environment until they really believe in Puppy to be a replacement. Hence...SAMBA.

Have you even checked out PhatSlacko?

Volhout wrote:

Menu structures could be very simple ... since 50% of all the programs that are distributed now with Puppy are developer oriented. They should go. Seamonkey is preferred web browser because it has a HTML editor.... haha ... users don't write HTML.... They don't know what it is. Maybe they recognise the word from MS-WORD in the list "save as HTML".

It is a change of mind.

Would you mind making a list of the applications in Slacko 5.6 that you feel need "to go"? Id be interested to hear your opinions.


bark_bark_bark wrote:
I think a FAT puppy would be real hard to upload to puppy's primary server. Plus how would we decide as a community what to include?
We all have strong opinions about different pieces of software.

100% Agreed

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Volhout


Joined: 28 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Aug 2013, 10:50    Post subject: response
Subject description: response
 

Hi Q5sys,

First of all, I don't want to offend anyone, and especially not 01Micko, since I highly appreciate his work, and I am using Slacko every day on my netbook. And Lucid is also based on his work.

I myself use Lucid 528 on the desktop PC's in my office and run my business with it. And I am happy with it. And yes, I ran into a few hurdles, and thanks to the responce I got on this forum, it is running fine for more than 3 years now.

So I believe in Puppy.

Stellarium is used as an example for a program that will never show up in a distro since it is not a primary function for a PC, but it is a great program for entertainment (power up your laptop when you are sitting on the deck and are looking at the sky in the night after a good BBQ, drinking one beer too many) and it has critical Qt dependencies. Things that are not in all puppies.

I have used FATslacko, Phatslacko, and have downloaded Lighthouse Mariner to try soon. And they are a lot closer to what I have in mind. But they are not official puppies. No-one can find them, unless they look at the right page at the forum. I vote to make one of these fat ones an official release, sanctioned by Barry, listed on distrowatch, etc. And THAT is the point.

So in fact, I think in many things we do agree. Only your position is that it should not be Puppy, since puppy is such a great toy for developers. Don't burden it with the load to also be a product for the mob. I agree, you do have a point in that.

One thing I do think however, is that "dumming down" a product does pay off. Allowing me (and you) to tinker around, but at the same time have something that is "iPhone-simple (or Android-simple)" is valuable. Just few icons on the desktop, or menu, but keep the terminal. And the "home" folder should contain only "documents" and "music" and "pictures". Much more confusing now.

About Slacko, and "what to remove"...... actually I just last night used the "remove buildin packages" tool and was looking what I could do to ThinSlacko to make it smaller.... I removed something 20+ items from the menu's. Things like "ftp server, 2 editors (geany, and abiword are enough), file difference checkers, some process viewers, download complete websites, pzchmview, etc.. all these tools that are for programmers. Nice tool by the way, it also removes the menu items.

Some items are also double. There are 2 programs that take a snapshort from the screen. Just pick one.... 2 programs that inform you how much disk space there is left, 2 scientific calculators, a lot of network tools that I never used. So even in thinslacko there is meat to cut (for me at least).

And then ... completely off-topic ..... I look at Slacko 533 (not thinslack) and Slacko 56 and there is 50Mbyte size difference (1.5x size). But they offer very much alike functionality. Is this difference in the kernel part ?
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