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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions
Microsoft, Puppy and the UDF Format
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
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Krishnamurti Naskar


Joined: 20 Apr 2012
Posts: 85
Location: Calcutta

PostPosted: Tue 05 Feb 2013, 23:05    Post subject:  

@gcmartin,isn't UDF Microsoft's proprietary format like WMV?
I'm just askin'.
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Flash
Official Dog Handler


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 11180
Location: Arizona USA

PostPosted: Tue 05 Feb 2013, 23:44    Post subject:  

UDF is a non-proprietary format. It has nothing to do with Microsoft.
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Smithy


Joined: 12 Dec 2011
Posts: 461

PostPosted: Tue 05 Mar 2013, 06:17    Post subject:  

Quote:
In UDF, its key significance is how it manages the data on the CD/DVD so that it has familiar operation with what users have come to think of in their use of HDD/USB/SMB/DFS storage. That is the ability to freely read and write with the disc maintaining the integrity of data management in a similar fashion.

And, as far as UDF goes on CD/DVD technology, there is tremendous benefit to management at the TOC level.

This is and what I share never was an appeal for changing anything to do with Puppy's save-session. It, solely, approached the ability to create a disc that can be used to freely read and write on one system and employed similarly on a Puppy Linux system.


You nailed it there gc martin, clarified.

So what's the state of play with Puppy and UDF?

Never use the save file, find it cumbersome and restrictive and anything outside it is verbotten (have to boot into another operating system to get to the other bits of fat 32).

I've got a fresh stick, is there a pet that will format it as UDF? Maybe a GParted addon.

Then I will use LILI (http://www.linuxliveusb.com) to write a Puppy ISO to it. Sound like a plan?
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Ted Dog


Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 2517
Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Tue 05 Mar 2013, 17:26    Post subject: UDF finalizing problem affects puppy multisession  

Code:
 finalising discs for a long time in the udf format


I've ran into this as a hardcoded issue with growisofs, seems that using UDF will force a disc into closed mode for adding multisessions. Hard lesson burning a sub 200M puppylinux as a UDF and not being able to use the other 23G of space. The little burn in ring of puppylinux is barely visible on a Blu-Ray disc so I kept trying to reuse same 'blank'

All is not lost, during the months of trying to get UDF support added to puppy, I found a way to hybrid a totally non-standard UDF/ISO format command that puppy can boot from and looks/acts however puppy thinks it is, with the changes Barry did it, shows up and acts like a UDF with large file sizes reporting correctly.
So UDF does boot and is mounted directly on current puppy versions, but does not seem useful with the multisession mode puppylinux pioneered due to tools used
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Ted Dog


Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 2517
Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Tue 05 Mar 2013, 17:42    Post subject:  

tallboy wrote:
If Ted Dog reads this, it would be interesting to see all the UDF boot code pasted into Barry's blog, I think line wrapping was off in the attached example.

EDIT: Sorry Ted Dog, I thought it was just a screenshot, not an active window. Shocked

Stupid question: If a live puppy is burnt to the first 'partition' on a multisession DVD-RW, can the rest of the disc be converted to UDF format, or must the whole disc be the same format to be recognized?

tallboy


It's possible, I have done this, but optical drive support software does not even think about a disc having parts. If you want to have fun. here is a way to make a bootable harddrive image.
Code:
 growisofs -Z /dev/sr0=/dev/hda

I used to keep my windows XP C drive partition a DVD size of 4.3G and backup directly onto DVD, now my Windows Vista partitions are 20G and backup with BluRay with same command.


Best to stick with current methods on DVD's UDF does not add much, and can't support multisession, YET.

I should really write a stupid tricks and tips thread for optical drives.
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Ted Dog


Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 2517
Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Tue 05 Mar 2013, 17:59    Post subject:  

Flash wrote:
UDF is a non-proprietary format. It has nothing to do with Microsoft.


Ha ha good joke Flash, you are joking right? http://www.osta.org/membership/index.htm
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Flash
Official Dog Handler


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 11180
Location: Arizona USA

PostPosted: Tue 05 Mar 2013, 22:57    Post subject:  

Ted, I can't find anything that says the UDF specification is proprietary (in the sense that means you have to pay someone to use it, or at least get their permission.) Here's something I found on the website you gave:
Quote:
The Optical Storage Technology Association (OSTA) was incorporated as an international trade association in 1992 to promote the use of writable optical technologies and products. The organization’s membership includes manufacturers and resellers from three continents, representing more than 85 percent of worldwide writable optical product shipments, working together to educate consumers and shape the future of the optical storage industry. Included among OSTA’s many accomplishments are its groundbreaking CD-R compatibility efforts, development of the Universal Disc Format (UDF) as well as the MultiRead, MultiPlay, MultiAudio and MultiPhoto/Video (MPV) specifications.

It appears that the UDF specification is available for free to anyone who wants to use it.
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Ted Dog


Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 2517
Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Tue 05 Mar 2013, 23:11    Post subject:  

UDF is free, but microsoft hand are all over making the specs, and they added and twisted ISO so bad with directory and naming layers that making discs cross platform is nearly impossible.
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Karl Godt


Joined: 20 Jun 2010
Posts: 3982
Location: Kiel,Germany

PostPosted: Sat 09 Mar 2013, 15:21    Post subject:  

Got me my first DVD-RAM that came preformatted with UDF . Vendor: Verbatim . I used rox to drag a folder onto it and it burned there . Then i made a folder on it and dragged the first one into it . At umount time, the burner was busy . Mounting it another time, 2/3rd of the subfolders got corrupted.

I decided to format it ext3 :

mkfs.ext3 /dev/sr2

Went smooth. Took some time.

Identifying does it well:

# guess_fstype /dev/sr2
ext3
# blkid /dev/sr2
/dev/sr2: UUID="60f3acbd-4000-44f4-b66c-9346acc27ad8" TYPE="ext3"
# disktype /dev/sr2

--- /dev/sr2
Block device, size 4.266 GiB (4580769792 bytes)
CD-ROM, 1 track, CDDB disk ID 023BFD01
Track 1: Data track, 2.197 GiB (2358986752 bytes)
Ext3 file system
UUID 60F3ACBD-4000-44F4-B66C-9346ACC27AD8 (DCE, v4)
Volume size 4.266 GiB (4580769792 bytes, 1118352 blocks of 4 KiB)

#

Needs adjustments to the drive_all and pmount code.

Will see how it goes.

EDIT: dragged the folder into lost+found, unmounted, mounted -t ext3 /dev/sr2 /mnt/sr2 : No corruptions. Dragged the folder back on top of /mnt/sr2, unmounted, mounted : No corruption. Seems that this would be a new way to "burn" a .iso to a bootable DVD (needs grub of course) .

EDIT2:
Code:
# diff -up AppRun.old drive_all
--- AppRun.old   2011-12-10 08:06:12.000000000 +0100
+++ drive_all   2013-03-09 21:57:20.176000000 +0100
@@ -302,8 +302,11 @@ case $ONEDRVNAME in #110126
   [ -e /proc/ide/$ONEDRVNAME/media ] && [ "`cat /proc/ide/$ONEDRVNAME/media`" = "cdrom" ] && FLAGOPTICAL='yes'
  ;;
 esac
-if [ "$FLAGOPTICAL" = "yes" ];then
- if [ "`busybox mount | grep "$dPATTERN"`" = "" ];then
+if [ "$FLAGOPTICAL" = "yes" ];then #1
+ if [ "`busybox mount | grep "$dPATTERN"`" = "" ];then #2
+  CDFSQ=`guess_fstype /dev/${ONEDRVNAME}`
+  [ "$CDFSQ" = 'unknown' ] && CDFSQ='';
+  if [ ! "$CDFSQ" ]; then #2.1
   cddetect -q -d/dev/${ONEDRVNAME}
   RETVAL=$?
   case $RETVAL in
@@ -312,11 +315,11 @@ if [ "$FLAGOPTICAL" = "yes" ];then
    ;;
   1) #audio
    ln -snf /dev/${ONEDRVNAME} /dev/cdrom
-   if [ -f /usr/local/bin/defaultcdplayer ];then #100118
+   if [ -f /usr/local/bin/defaultcdplayer ];then #100118 #3
     exec defaultcdplayer
-   else
+   else #3
     exec defaultmediaplayer cdda://
-   fi
+   fi   #3
    ;;
   5) #video dvd
    ln -snf /dev/${ONEDRVNAME} /dev/dvd
@@ -327,29 +330,37 @@ if [ "$FLAGOPTICAL" = "yes" ];then
   0) #failed to detect type.
    #cddetect does not work properly for dvd's, try something else...
    #100719 properly detect dvd video...
-   if [ "`df | grep "$dPATTERN"`" = "" ];then #only test if not mounted.
+   if [ "`df | grep "$dPATTERN"`" = "" ];then #only test if not mounted. #4
     FLAGDVDVIDEO="`dvd+rw-mediainfo /dev/${ONEDRVNAME} | grep 'Mounted Media: .* DVD-ROM'`"
-    if [ "$FLAGDVDVIDEO" = "" ];then
+    if [ "$FLAGDVDVIDEO" = "" ];then #5
      #mount and look for 'video_ts' directory (dir should contain file video_ts.ifo)...
      mkdir -p /mnt/${ONEDRVNAME}
      mount -t iso9660 /dev/${ONEDRVNAME} /mnt/${ONEDRVNAME}
-     if [ $? -eq 0 ];then
+     if [ $? -eq 0 ];then #6
       [ -d /mnt/${ONEDRVNAME}/video_ts -o -d /mnt/${ONEDRVNAME}/VIDEO_TS ] && FLAGDVDVIDEO="yes"
       umount /mnt/${ONEDRVNAME}
-     fi
-    fi
-    if [ "$FLAGDVDVIDEO" != "" ];then
+     fi #6
+    fi  #5
+    if [ "$FLAGDVDVIDEO" != "" ];then #4.5
      ln -snf /dev/${ONEDRVNAME} /dev/dvd
      [ -f /usr/local/bin/defaultdvdplayer ] && exec defaultdvdplayer
      [ "`grep 'mplayer' /usr/local/bin/defaultmediaplayer`" != "" ] && exec defaultmediaplayer dvdnav://
      exec defaultmediaplayer dvd://
-    fi
-   fi
+    fi #4.5
+   fi  #4
    ;;
   esac
- fi
- FSTYPE="iso9660"
-fi
+ else #2.1
+  FSTYPE="$CDFSQ"
+ fi   #2.1
+ fi #2
+ #FSTYPE="iso9660"
+ FSTYPE=`guess_fstype /dev/${ONEDRVNAME}`
+ [ "$FSTYPE" = 'unknown' ] && FSTYPE=`blkid /dev/${ONEDRVNAME} | grep -o ' TYPE=".*"' | awk '{print $1}' |sed 's@.*="\(.*\)"@\1@'`
+ [ "$FSTYPE" ] || FSTYPE=`disktype /dev/${ONEDRVNAME} | grep -i 'file system' | awk '{print $1}' |tail -n1`
+ FSTYPE=`echo "$FSTYPE" | tr '[A-Z]' '[a-z]'`
+ [[ "$FSTYPE" =~ 'fat' ]] && FSTYPE=vfat
+fi  #1
 
 #if dropped down here, it is likely to be a data partition...
 #if it is a mountable partition then mount and open with rox. If already mntd then open in rox...
#

(Slacko Puppy 5.3.1 works to mount the sr2 icon on the desktop by clicking it)

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Last edited by Karl Godt on Sat 09 Mar 2013, 17:12; edited 1 time in total
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gcmartin


Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4496
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Sat 09 Mar 2013, 17:05    Post subject:  

I have several DVD-RAM disc media. I NEVER tried their use in Puppy even though I have used them in past on Microsoft.

@Karl Godt, THANKS for your sharing your findings.

This brings very interesting possibilities.

One that comes to mind is the GRUB4DOS efforts that support booting ISOs without having to expand them. Such as done by @Rcrsn51's ISObooter and by @Scooby's Easy2Boot efforts where you simply add an ISO to the media and when the media is booted, a bootmenu presents all ISOs available on the media for booting selection.

Thanks for your findings.

I would like to try your findings on a DVD-RAM disc and see which of the other filesystems used by Puppy that would work with PUPs and DVD-RAM media (i.e. FAT32, NTFS, ext2, ext4, etc.)

For those who may not be aware DVD-RAM is a DVD technology that allows a DVD to behave kinda like a HDD. Thus, there are the 3 very different DVD technologies: There are DVD+/-R, then there are DVD+/-RW, and there are DVD-RAM disc media that one can purchase.

Here to help

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Ted Dog


Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 2517
Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Sat 09 Mar 2013, 17:36    Post subject:  

Good find getting DVD-RAM working Karl. DVD-RAM discs are nearly impossible to find, found some 'opened' in a Walmart discount bin years ago, bought them all.
Since I had the same errors you did, I thought they where defective. Embarassed
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Flash
Official Dog Handler


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 11180
Location: Arizona USA

PostPosted: Sat 09 Mar 2013, 21:48    Post subject:  

For what it's worth, the main functional advantage of DVD-RAM is that it can be rewritten something like 100,000 times. Or so I understand.
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Karl Godt


Joined: 20 Jun 2010
Posts: 3982
Location: Kiel,Germany

PostPosted: Sat 09 Mar 2013, 22:24    Post subject:  

There is not many places available here too. Staples office discount http://www.staples.de have them. It is in a suburb some 10 brit miles from my place. The are available in a packet of 3 . Will get me some more on monday. Verbatim [url="http://www.verbatim.com/subcat/optical-media/professional-optical/dvd ram"][/url] is a "brand" but I dont think that they are good quality. On that site they claim 100.000 writes ..
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headfound


Joined: 24 Jun 2006
Posts: 349
Location: England

PostPosted: Sun 10 Mar 2013, 11:49    Post subject:  

verbatim are a good brand, they use good quality discs including the legendary Taiyo Yuden!
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Makoto


Joined: 03 Sep 2009
Posts: 1820
Location: Out wandering... maybe.

PostPosted: Sun 10 Mar 2013, 14:42    Post subject:  

...except for the Verbatim "Life" series, which reportedly uses cheaper/bargain-quality discs. Sad
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