Puppy Linux Discussion Forum Forum Index Puppy Linux Discussion Forum
Puppy HOME page : puppylinux.com
"THE" alternative forum : puppylinux.info
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The time now is Fri 19 Dec 2014, 06:18
All times are UTC - 4
 Forum index » House Training » Users ( For the regulars )
Have more than 3GB of RAM? You need one of these Puppies
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. View previous topic :: View next topic
Page 2 of 5 [62 Posts]   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next
Author Message
tlchost

Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 1741
Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA

PostPosted: Thu 26 Jul 2012, 18:08    Post subject: Large Drives  

It would be beneficial to know which of the distros that handle memory > 4 gigs can see drives of 2 tb and greater. Seems to me that as memory and drive prices go down....boxes with lots of memory and big drives will be very common.

Thom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website 
Karl Godt


Joined: 20 Jun 2010
Posts: 3982
Location: Kiel,Germany

PostPosted: Thu 26 Jul 2012, 18:22    Post subject: Re: Large Drives  

tlchost wrote:
It would be beneficial to know which of the distros that handle memory > 4 gigs can see drives of 2 tb and greater. Seems to me that as memory and drive prices go down....boxes with lots of memory and big drives will be very common.

Thom

The most developers have not much liquidity flow here compared to many users .

Iguleder once made good tutorials about kernel compiling . Kernel actually is easy compared to Xorg .

My latest HDD became 500GB .

HTH
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website 
Sylvander

Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 3550
Location: West Lothian, Scotland, UK

PostPosted: Thu 26 Jul 2012, 19:27    Post subject:  

I recently bought a brand-new 64-bit PC that includes 4GB of RAM, and I have another 4GB of ram sitting spare/unused.
But it seems that the Puppies I'm using [only FatDog64 is 64-bit] typically use only a tiny proportion of the available RAM, and CPU capability.

Seems pointless to aditionally install the spare 4GB of RAM.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
tlchost

Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 1741
Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA

PostPosted: Thu 26 Jul 2012, 19:51    Post subject:  

Sylvander wrote:

But it seems that the Puppies I'm using [only FatDog64 is 64-bit] typically use only a tiny proportion of the available RAM, and CPU capability.

Seems pointless to aditionally install the spare 4GB of RAM.


Having a 2 TB drive and not having the OS see it, as is the case with many puppies, is disappointing.

Racy sees the memory and the drive...so that is a start. Slacko sees the drive and not the memory. Both see the network, video and sound.

As I recall, fatdog64 sees neighter the drive or the lerge memory...so it is of little use to me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website 
gcmartin


Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4506
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Thu 26 Jul 2012, 20:06    Post subject:  

Sylvander wrote:
I recently ... additionally install the spare 4GB of RAM.
Puppy Linux is one of the rare breeds of Linux (maybe not so rare) which can be used as a RAM based OS. This means that all subsystems exist and based in RAM versus on HDD/USB based.

What PUPPY does essentially is to take your RAM for something that looks like a "real" hard-drive. (Actually, there's a little more to it than that, but you get the idea)

Since everything is in RAM, there is NO NEED for any other media for your operation. And, YES, operationally, the core of your system at initial desktop and most normal operations never approaches consumption of all of your RAM as it carries out Linux operations you use. This really does "LOOK" like a real HDD in the Puppy tables.

There easiest advantage that anyone of us can see, is when you download a file to your root (or spot) folder. If you open ROX to root, you will see your download. And if you use Puppy tools, you will see that your memory use has gone up by the size of the download. (Use FREE command). Again, this assumes you are running Puppy in its native RAM mode from the ISO.

I have, at times, used all of the RAM on an 8GB RAM system with the various things I do where Puppy's filesystem is in RAM. I run a large 8GB Swap file and the free command shows me Puppy filesystem (RAM based) usage. And, the more RAM I have on my system, the bigger the RAM based filesystem is for my storage needs and system executions.

The excess RAM usage is a great as it affords your Linux to access files, folders, programs, and storage a break-neck speeds versus the VEERRRY SLLOOOOOWWW speed of HDD/USB.

There are other members who would describe this a little differently.

Hope this is a simple easily understood explanation.

If not, post back and Iwe'll get a little more technical.

Here to help

Edited: Puppy Linux, in my experience does NOT cripple in any way anyone's need or use of standard, direct HDDs/USBs (If you run RAID or LVM, this is a "yet to be addressed" problem). All PUPs I have encountered over the years either have icons available for click-mounts or couple PUPs even have gone so far as to mount my drives at boot for me.

_________________
Get ACTIVE Create Circles; Do those good things which benefit people's needs!
We are all related ... Its time to show that we know this!
3 Different Puppy Search Engine or use DogPile

Last edited by gcmartin on Fri 24 Aug 2012, 16:38; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
p310don

Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 745
Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Fri 27 Jul 2012, 00:13    Post subject:  

Quote:
Having a 2 TB drive and not having the OS see it, as is the case with many puppies, is disappointing.


I have not encountered this problem. My Lupu box has 2 x 2TB and 2 x 1TB drives, all formatted to EXT4 and then tune2fs'ed to make the reserve 1%. Puppy does all this fine, and give me maximum space, and maximum performance / robustness.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Sylvander

Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 3550
Location: West Lothian, Scotland, UK

PostPosted: Fri 27 Jul 2012, 02:05    Post subject:  

gcmartin wrote:
Hope this is a simple easily understood explanation.

Yes, very clear. Cool
Thank you for that. Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Pelo


Joined: 10 Sep 2011
Posts: 3452
Location: Mer méditerrannée (1 kms°)

PostPosted: Mon 24 Sep 2012, 00:56    Post subject: I have more than 3GB
Subject description: No need of such power ! For games perhaps.
 

I have more than 3GB
No need of such power ! For games perhaps.

Ask the users why they use puppy and not Windows or bigger Linux : because they are small, light, easy to install.
Pocket tool !

The problem is that the applications provided by Linux are old-fashionned. Games are those when i was twenty years old, that means thirty years ago !

sorry sir. Pelo.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger 
gcmartin


Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4506
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Mon 24 Sep 2012, 16:54    Post subject:  

Somehow, many may miss the message of this thread, I think.

I am not advocating anyone resort to PC expansion. But, the community has found that should anyone of us have a PC, where there are 32 bit (and 64bit) Puppy distros whose PAE design allows Linux to use all of your RAM for any productive work you have. This design allows you also to increase/change memory or RAM size PCs and the distro has the intellect to insure that all RAM (all the way to 64GB) will be available and used for the user's productivity. Therefore, you can add as much RAM as you want and the distro will make it available for productive use without chaining anything. The non-PAE distros will NOT allow you to do this because they don't have the smarts to understand how to use this proven hardware feature.

The community's finding and making it available is NOT about size. Its about effective use of PC RAM for user's system usage....automatically. Again, to reiterate, PAE in PUPs have been shown to allow effective Puppy RAM management with NO apparent downside in its operations. No slowness, no crashing of appls, ... nothing apparent. In fact, many members were reporting faster systems as well as effective RAM use with the PAE distros. Thus, if you have a PC and the processor contains the PAE feature, you will experience effective system's use no matter how much memory you add (although, some have reported equivalent performance with non-PAE distros throughout the internet, I, personally, would recommend what I have seen from several PUP developers which suggest "you have 384MB+ RAM).

That all any of us, who tested and used these Puppy distros, have said.

I applaud this community for being one of the first production distro(s) who have made this available. In fact, since the Puppy announcement, at least 10 of the other "big-name' Linux distros are now making PAE versions available to their 32bit community. Some of the others were already doing it before PAE PUPs came along with our findings and implementations.

Puppy has made an impact, not only within its community, but others (commercial and non-commercial) have followed this building, as well.

Question
Should any of us find any problems with the use of PAE PUPs, please, please alert us. (But, thus far, the industry continues to make use of this 1995 feature of 32bit CPUs.) Has anyone experienced negative behavior from a PAE distro?

Here to help.

_________________
Get ACTIVE Create Circles; Do those good things which benefit people's needs!
We are all related ... Its time to show that we know this!
3 Different Puppy Search Engine or use DogPile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
kattami

Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 109
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Thu 17 Jan 2013, 16:10    Post subject:  

Thank you everyone, for this wonderful information.

After being on 1 Gb RAM laptops for years, we are about to expand.

We are going to get at least one, perhaps two, of the Acer Aspire One 756.

This little laptop has 8 Gb RAM.

Which we need because one of us work with photos. RAW format photos is difficult to work with if not having at least 8 Gb RAM.

And we are going to travel for the possibilities to take photos. Hence laptops has to be small and light.

So its very nice to find information about puppylinux OS that can use all of the RAM.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Atle

Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 295
Location: Oslo, Norway

PostPosted: Sun 17 Feb 2013, 12:05    Post subject:  

Its great with PAE versions, but not so great that the main flagship is a PAE version.

If you imagine your totally new to Puppy and come here to download, your likely to end up with a PAE version that will not boot your good old laptop,

Most users that looks up Puppy and Slitaz is doing so in stead of updating their Windoze or to use old hardware.

So in my opinion the PAE version should not be the standard download, but a alternative for large amounts of RAM.

That said, I do not know if RetroPrecise will boot on all PC's as Lucid does, but its for sure that Precise does not boot on any machine i have as they are a bit old.

So for the first time users i think the Puppy experience is limited to a not so great experience, unless the first time users happens to have a great new computer, that probably runs Windowz well...

just some thoughts

atle
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger 
gcmartin


Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4506
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Sun 17 Feb 2013, 21:45    Post subject:  

Atle wrote:
... So in my opinion the PAE version should not be the standard download, but a alternative for large amounts of RAM. ...
I can see your point. But, here is some ideas that might help to see benefit with what developers are trying to do for the user community.

Are you aware of the approximate percentage of PCs (this includes laptops) that have been manufactured since 1995 that do NOT have PAE..

The idea is that if 99% of PCs have the RAM management facility built-in, then the likelihood would be small that anyone would have a non-PAE PC which has limited RAM capacity.l. Most every user in this community as well as those who are new, has a PAE PC.

I am NOT speaking for the development community, but, I can see how a single distro with PAE would run on any PC from 256MB to 16GB where the distro would take advantage of thr RAM for system-user use.

This cannot be done without PAE on 32bit PCs .

Imagine your disappointment should you come with a large RAM PC and the distro ignore much of your RAM? Recent tests by members are showing when they test/post the PCs they are using, that the evidence is enormous that PAE addresses most of the user PCs in the community.

This does not even begin to see the number of users who now are using 64bit PCs, as well.

Lastly, since PUPPY first reported PAE offerings, many of the Distrowatch distros now, also, are providing their 32bit community a PAE offering. One could assume that those Distrowatch providers were watching the advances in Puppy LInux and deciding that there is benefit, as well.

Hope you find this of benefit. BTW, I have NOT seen ANY exodus from traditional Puppy distro builders. And, in case you may not have noticed, some of the community developers ONLY make PUPSs for small RAM older PCs.

This thread was opened to bring awareness to the community so that they would understand how to spot the benefits of using a PAE aware PUP on most PCs that they have. The thread does NOT discourage use of non-PAE Puppy distros. I fully support them as well as understand benefits.

PAE is not known to bring negative benefits in its operations on PCs that can run it....NONE, currently known or witnessed in this community's testing. In those cases where testing and comparison was performed, benefits were reported for community observation. Those reports were positive from the membership.

If you have really old PCs with limited RAM prior to 2006, you will probably need to pay attention and ONLY use distros which boot on your hardware. And, if you'll post the make and model of your old PCs, I will help you ID a distro for your liking.

Here to help

_________________
Get ACTIVE Create Circles; Do those good things which benefit people's needs!
We are all related ... Its time to show that we know this!
3 Different Puppy Search Engine or use DogPile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
p310don

Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 745
Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Mon 18 Feb 2013, 08:48    Post subject:  

I don't want to rain on your parade gcmartin, and you know my view on PAE, but, your stats may be out a little.

Quote:
Are you aware of the approximate percentage of PCs (this includes laptops) that have been manufactured since 1995 that do NOT have PAE..

The idea is that if 99% of PCs have the RAM management facility built-in, then the likelihood would be small that anyone would have a non-PAE PC which has limited RAM capacity.l. Most every user in this community as well as those who are new, has a PAE PC.


I don't know the actual percentages, but, I do know that many or most of the Atom processors don't like PAE. That's pretty much all netbooks that don't like PAE kernels.

I agree with Atle's opinion that the default major release shouldn't be PAE as it does exclude some.

What should be made available is education as to what is best for the user. Do you have 4gig or more ram? Get a PAE Puppy. Could we call that a Paeppy? Do you have less than 4gig, get the regular. And make sure the user understands why they got what they got.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
gcmartin


Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4506
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Mon 18 Feb 2013, 15:39    Post subject:  

I understand what you are sharing. And as I have stated, I am NOT a distro developer and I DO NOT have a "hard-on" for one technology versus another. But, there are some very obvious advantages and this is why developers in the community presents PAE.

Anyone who read this and has an ATOM processor, be aware, that some DON'T have PAE ability. Further, there are also few INTEL P4s that do not have PAE. In total, this is a minority in comparison. In fact, my office mate has just shared that his Netbook is running Barry's RACY and it has an ATOM processor. So some ATOMs have PAE. ... Right?

The early ATOMs ARE a Intel version which they produced; and have, since, been actively increasing and adding features as they move forward. We have seen where Intel has 64bit versions of that processor as well. And, according to Intel there is a bright and rich future for this low energy processor inexpensive chip as a 64bit unit.

That said, again, the total number of systems in the world today are mostly PAE systems. And, RAM remained constant in price over the past 2 years. Even cheap 2nd-hand RAM from a local computer store,

Again, I applaud the development community for what they have done for this community as well as the overall Linux community which followed what appears to have been a Puppy lead.

And, again, should anyone who is running a PAE, they are/should be aware that they can add as much RAM as they choose and expect that the PAE Puppy distro will make that RAM available for your benefit without the need to change anything in your distro.

_________________
Get ACTIVE Create Circles; Do those good things which benefit people's needs!
We are all related ... Its time to show that we know this!
3 Different Puppy Search Engine or use DogPile

Last edited by gcmartin on Mon 18 Feb 2013, 20:18; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Q5sys


Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Posts: 1074

PostPosted: Mon 18 Feb 2013, 20:13    Post subject:  

First off:
gcmartin wrote:
Lastly, since PUPPY first reported PAE offerings, many of the Distrowatch distros now, also, are providing their 32bit community a PAE offering. One could assume that those Distrowatch providers were watching the advances in Puppy LInux and deciding that there is benefit, as well.

That's probably the most massive assumption I've heard all year. And I heard Obama's State of the Union Address. Laughing Puppy was not the first to offer PAE, so I doubt the greater linux community looked at us and thought 'oh man Puppy is doing it, so we better do it too.'

Sadly I doubt puppy has much affect at all in the greater linux community. Most of the developers from other distros that I know and talk to always look at puppy linux with a look of confusion and bewilderment at how we do everything 'backwards' (in their eyes).
Pretty much their face is:


Anyway returning to the point of PAE though...

Kinda ironic that I found this thread today, because this weekend I overheard a discussion between two people about PAE. I'll paraphrase it below, because I found it humerous.

As for my opinion. PAE is useful in some circumstances. That is absolutely true. But I've noticed that some distros are making PAE default, and this I dont think is the best option. Because the users who can benefit from it, are dwarfed by the number who gain no extra ram from it. And in the case of Puppy where we are focused on reviving older hardware, and in particular older laptops... we may screw over alot of Pentium M and Celeron M users if we tried to make it default.
PAE made sense when 64bit Linux distros were horrible, but now that most distros have polished up their 64bit offerings, I dont see the point.

Also as for the claims that there is no drawbacks to PAE... there is a minor one. It probably isnt important to most people, but reports from Red Hat as well as reports from the BSD community, have said that there is approx. a 5% performance drop between a PAE and Non PAE kernel with regard to memory access and usage.
I've never tested it myself, but thats what I've read from multiple sources.


Now take this next statement with a grain of salt because I'm a bit partial to 64bit... but I think we would better serve our community by focusing on further 64bit development, than in 32bit with PAE. But again... I'm partial.
I think PAE should be an option... but I feel default for 32bit should be non PAE. The old Kernel adage is 'dont break userspace'. Should we default ship a kernel that we KNOW wont work on some hardware? Or should we ship what we KNOW is compatible for everyone and those that desire 4gb instead of 3.5gb ram can choose to download that release.
Which brings up an interesting question... why aren't we just offering the PAE kernel in the PPM, for users who want it? Would mean developers wouldn't have to bundle and host two ISOs.

Paraphrased conversation. (this is for entertainment only)
Quote:
PAE fanboy: OMG, PAE is awesome, its the wave of the future. Every distro should use PAE by default.
Skeptic: Why?
PAE fanboy: So you can use more than 4gb of ram. Tons of new systems come with more than 4gb of ram.
Skeptic: And those are all 64bit processors, so why would you run a 32bit distro with a patch instead of a proper 64bit distro?
PAE fanboy: Good point, well there are current 32bit processors made.
Skeptic: Yes thats true, there are current Intel Atom 32bit processors, but those actually dont have PAE support built in. So in fact your PAE-kernel distro wont run.
PAE fanboy: Oh, well you can use it on older hardware, PAE has been around in the chips since the Pentium 2.
Skeptic: Do you use 4gb or more on a Pentium 2 system?
PAE fanboy: No
Skeptic: Do you know anyone who uses 4gb or more on a Pentium 2 system?
PAE fanboy: No
Skeptic: Are you even aware of any motherboard thats uses the Pentium 2 that can handle 4gb of ram?
PAE fanboy: No
Skeptic: So how does the fact that its in the pentium 2 support your position?
PAE fanboy: Ok, so it doesnt, but what about the Pentium 3!
Skeptic: Ok fair enough, Do you use 4gb or more on a Pentium 3 system?
PAE fanboy: No
Skeptic: Do you know anyone who uses 4gb or more on a Pentium 3 system?
PAE fanboy: No
Skeptic: Are you even aware of any motherboard thats uses the Pentium 3 that can handle 4gb of ram?
PAE fanboy: No
Skeptic: So how does the fact that its in the pentium 3 support your position?
PAE fanboy: Hmm... well I know there are motherboard use the Pentium 4 that can use more than 4gb
Skeptic: Thats true, but not every chip in the Pentium 4 family has PAE support?
PAE fanboy: They dont?
Skeptic: Nope, the Pentium M, Celeron M, and a few other Pentium 4 based mobile processors dont have PAE support. And even if they did, laptops of the era didnt support more than 4gb anyway.
PAE fanboy: Oh
Skeptic: So P4 PAE support is mostly going to help you with desktop users.
PAE fanboy: So see there you go.
Skeptic: And how many users of Pentium 4 systems have more than 4gb?
PAE fanboy: Well I dont know.
Skeptic: And do you think there are more users of P4 systems out there with more than 4gb than there are users with laptops that run chips based on the P4 M and Celeron M chips?
PAE fanboy: Probably not, those laptops are everywhere.
Skeptic: Right, so you want to cause a problem for a bunch of people, just so a few over 4gb can be happy.
PAE fanboy: Well... All of those older users could still be able to use the full 4gb instead of just 3.5gb of ram.
Skeptic: What distro do you use?
PAE fanboy: [insert random distro here]
Skeptic: And what exactly can you do with 4gb of ram that you cant do with 3.5 gb of ram?
PAE fanboy: Um... I dont know. I know you need a lot of ram for things like video editing, and stuff.
Skeptic: Are you doing video editing on a Pentium 2?
PAE fanboy: No
Skeptic: Do you know anyone who is doing video editing on a Pentium 2?
PAE fanboy: No
Skeptic: Are you doing video editing on a Pentium 3?
PAE fanboy: No
Skeptic: Do you know anyone who is doing video editing on a Pentium 3?
PAE fanboy: No
Skeptic: Are you doing video editing on a Pentium 4?
PAE fanboy: No
Skeptic: Do you know anyone who is doing video editing on a Pentium 4?
PAE fanboy: No, but I'm sure that some are.
Skeptic: You're probably right, but if those people are willing to wait days and days to render things because they are trying to render video on a P3 or P4... are they really going to notice a difference with an extra 512mb of ram available?
PAE fanboy: Oh.
Skeptic: So whats the benefit of PAE again? And is that benefit great enough to deal with all the problems it'll bring about for other 32bit processors that dont support it?
PAE fanboy: I'll shut up now.

_________________



Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website 
Display posts from previous:   Sort by:   
Page 2 of 5 [62 Posts]   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » House Training » Users ( For the regulars )
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
[ Time: 0.1362s ][ Queries: 13 (0.0069s) ][ GZIP on ]