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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Derivatives
Lxpup 14 final 7-20-2012
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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 3645
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Wed 23 Jan 2013, 12:54    Post subject: An interesting bug  

Hi @Inoxidabile

This is a rather interesting bug. I have no way of testing to assist in its resolution (no way to replicate your external multimedia drive over USB)

But, I think you have brought awareness to a configuration issue that may have applicability as we move into the future. One particular is a scenario that I have thought about over the holidays where I can run a x86 motherboard without internal peripheral with only a USB/eSATA DVD drive. Reasonable expectation but, as you share here, that configuration may not work with a 32bit PUP. For, as you report there are boot time issues affecting system start.

This reasoning came as a result of looking at FATSlacko which has run without reboot since its original desktop configuration and reboot in the spring of last year. Without a need for internal storage (system has plenty of RAM), an external CD/DVD boot option would be applicable for a startup and setup of a PUP which is rarely, if ever, rebooted.

Hope others who can replicate this can assist in pointing the finger at the internal problem occurring.

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Last edited by gcmartin on Wed 23 Jan 2013, 13:08; edited 1 time in total
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RSH


Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 2036
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Wed 23 Jan 2013, 13:03    Post subject:  

Hi.

In the German forum some guys have found that also pmedia=wuwei is working and will find the sfs file. Which seems like the pmedia= is not used.

On the other hand and from my own research and work on LazY Puppy I know, pmedia IS USED several times inside the initrd.gz file.

The Init script of initrd.gz wrote:
if [ "$PMEDIA" ];then #kernel boot param
case $PMEDIA in
usbflash|usbhd) #impose restriction to only probe usb drives...
#LESSPARTS0="`echo "$LESSPARTS0" | grep -v -F "$ATADRIVES0"`" #110126
for REMOVEDRIVE in $ATADRIVES
do
LESSPARTS0="`echo "$LESSPARTS0" | grep -v $REMOVEDRIVE`"
done
;;
cd) #101021
#[ "$PRAMONLY" = "yes" ] && LESSPARTS0="`echo "$LESSPARTS0" | grep '^sr'`" #101218 do not search other drives.
[ "$PRAMONLY" = "yes" ] && LESSPARTS0="`echo "$PCPARTSALL" | grep '^/dev/' | cut -f 1-2 -d '|' | grep 'iso9660' | sed -e 's%/dev/%%'`" #110126 do not search other drives.
;;
*)
#note: a mistake if have PDEV1 on usb booting, as it can change.
if [ "$PDEV1" ];then #kernel boot param.
LESSPARTS0="`echo "$LESSPARTS0" | grep "${PDEV1}|"`"
fi
;;
esac
fi

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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 8564
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed 23 Jan 2013, 13:15    Post subject:  

I suspect that Volhout is correct about this being a timing issue. Old Puppies like 431 were inefficient at finding their sfs. So by the time a USB device had initialized, Puppy was ready to find it.

But newer Puppies do a more efficient search and may look for the sfs file on a USB device before it is ready.

Try the boot option "puppy pmedia=xxx". Because this is a bogus option, Puppy will start a full search. It may eventually find the sfs file correctly.
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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 3645
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Wed 23 Jan 2013, 13:38    Post subject: Which USBx?  

Here's another question that might be contributory:
Is this USB1 OR USB2 OR USB3? Remember USB1 is from the 486/Pentium1 days.

The issue maybe if someone has a similar or newer USB config for testing who could share that its consistent, no matter which USBx is used, OR if its related to the USBx.

If issues with USB are reported, should we be reported which USBx is having the problem so that community may better be able to address?

Question
Does anyone have an external USB CD/DVD drive to test this phenomenon?

hope this idea is helpful, if applicable.

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ETP


Joined: 19 Oct 2010
Posts: 487
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed 23 Jan 2013, 15:41    Post subject: sfs doesn't load  

Hi inoxidabile,

This is indeed a fascinating problem and I agree with gcmartin, that for the future benefit of the puppy community, it is one worth trying to solve.
I had an almost identical issue trying to boot 533 from a USB stick when I ran without a hard disc for a few days. Changing the boot codes in syslinux from sdb1 to sda1 solved the problem. It would I believe, be worth trying to get your system to boot by any means if only to then determine how the running puppy perceives the various drives. It would give clues to how the ISO could be re-mastered with appropriate boot codes in isolinux.cfg for your system.

If you are game and have a second USB port (assuming that no variation on pmedia= works) could you copy the main sfs from the ISO to the root of a non-bootable
USB stick then attempt the following:

1. Simply try booting from the CD with that stick also plugged in.(Puppy might find the sfs)

2. If that fails (which it probably will) try again with the stick plugged in and try in turn each of the following boot codes:

a) pupsfs=sda1:/puppy_lxpup_12.sfs

b) pupsfs=sdb1:/puppy_lxpup_12.sfs

b) pupsfs=sdc1:/puppy_lxpup_12.sfs

(Substitute the correct name for your sfs if need be)

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inoxidabile


Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Wed 23 Jan 2013, 16:29    Post subject:  

Maybe I'm wrong, but in the options list (-> F3 at boot) I don't remember there are the parameters wuwel or xxx .
Moreover, I'm not skilled enough to identify if the problem is related to newer kernels, changes in cfg files or timing somewhere.

However, looking to the other thread about this topic (http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=83880) Peterm321 says:
...I looked at the USB drive and noticed both isolinux.cfg and syslinux.cfg had pmedia=cd on the boot command line, I amended both to pmedia=usbflash and then the sfs file was found and the boot could proceed.

I agree with gcmartin and let me add that in my opinion it's a general topic.
This behavior is the same also with retro lxpup, the last official Puppy... and so on, I tried several version and then it seems not a case.
After a lot of check on various pc along years, I think to be able to say that 4.3.1 has the greatest hw compatibility.
I'm not sure to be able to do it but maybe I could try to edit the cfg files in the iso as suggested by Peterm321.

At beginning I thought it was a problem related to a "strange" hw setup but after a search I found there are some other quite similar behavior.
However, my target was to install Lxpup and I did it with a manual frugal install.
If it can be useful, I could repeat the same attempt of live use of Puppy with some specific version/derivatives... maybe in this way it could be possible to identify at what "point of evolution" it happens .
I also must say that this behavior never happened before to me.

Now I see the post from ETP and I plan to perform also this attempt in a couple of days.
Just to complete the description I must say that the pc I'm working on is a thin client and, as also several other users have seen, it has sometime problem to boot from usb stick and this is the reason to use an external CD drive usb connected
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2byte

Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 357

PostPosted: Wed 23 Jan 2013, 17:23    Post subject:  

inoxidabile

I think you will find that this is a hardware/kernel issue related to timing as suggested earlier. Several distros like FatDog have a wait boot parameter to allow the kernel time to discover attached devices like your usb/cd. One linux kernel param from the linux kernel documentation that may be useful

rootwait
[KNL] Wait (indefinitely) for root device to show up.
Useful for devices that are detected asynchronously
(e.g. USB and MMC devices).

All of the pmedia and psubdir stuff is useless if linux hasn't discovered the device yet.

Or why not give Fatdog a try? If you do, be sure to read about it's boot options here http://distro.ibiblio.org/fatdog/web/faqs/boot-options.html
Look for waitdev=.

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2byte

Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 357

PostPosted: Wed 23 Jan 2013, 17:36    Post subject:  

Jejy69

Would it be possible for you to add a waitdev boot param to Lxpup?

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Sonic

Joined: 12 Jan 2013
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Thu 24 Jan 2013, 13:37    Post subject:  

hello, really nice work, and I am furious because I found a small problem that prevents me from fully enjoying
I tested version Precise and Slacko version, and the problem I meet precise version ONLY.
I think pretty much know where it comes from: ACPI.
I could post elsewhere, but as one of the two versions of the problem does not happen, I thought it would be easier for experts.
So FINALLY the problem on my Compaq Presario 2100, 528 MB of ram, and therefore under precise version only, the computer does not stop completely, as when I reboot my system, it stores well, then a black screen said "restarting system". I then have to press a few seconds to actually turn off the PC.
Else, the fan runs constantly PC.
Here, I apologize for my "googlezed translate" English I'm French.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


hello, vraiment un très beau travail, et j'enrage car je rencontre un petit problème qui m'empêche d'en profiter pleinement
J'ai testé la version Precise et la version Slacko, et le problème je le rencontre UNIQUEMENT sur la version precise.
Je pense à peu près savoir d'où cela provient : l'ACPI.
Je pourrais poster ailleurs, mais comme sur une des deux versions le problème ne se produit pas, je me suis dit que cela serait plus facile pour les experts.
Voilà donc ENFIN le problème : sur mon Compaq Presario 2100, 528 Mo de ram, et donc sous la version precise uniquement, le PC ne s'arrête pas totalement, par exemple lorsque je reboote mon système, il sauvegarde bien, puis j'ai l'écran noir indiqué "restarting system". Je suis alors obligé d'appuyer quelques secondes afin de réellement éteindre le PC.
Autre chose, le ventilateur du PC tourne constamment.
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Sonic

Joined: 12 Jan 2013
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Fri 25 Jan 2013, 03:17    Post subject:    

it was a mistake to post it here.
bye
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inoxidabile


Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Fri 25 Jan 2013, 18:19    Post subject:  

Hi evrybody !
I did a lot of tests and here I am to say how their results Smile

LxPup
-> pmedia=wuwel or pmedia=xxx
...no boot, same problem about sfs
-> edit iso and change of isolinux.cfg , pmedia has parameter cd and become usbcd
...no boot, same as before and I'seen that there is and I've seen there isn't syslinux.cfg in iso
-> copying sfs on a usb stick and boot having also this usb stick inserted
... it starts !

FatDog

It starts well without add of any delay!
Some more notes:
- initrd takes a little bit more time than "common"puppy derivatives I checked in the past
- I have to say that the use and access at files, programs, etc... it seems quicker than expected (even it's a fat version!)
- moreover I would like to point out that, sometimes, it stops before to start the visualization of desktop and I must type xstart (however, after this it's ok)
However, my feel is that the more time needed at the early stage of boot acts as a "delay" and then allows a better access to usb cd drive.

And now the best : I tried the LxPup with an other external usb cd drive (thanks to a friend!) and... it starts !!! Very Happy

Then, to sum up, my feel is that the hypotesis fron Volhout was right, maybe, there is "something" about delay in access of external usb cd drive, causing the problem and then, maybe it could be a good thing to add a little delay (fixed or as in FatDog).
I'm not able to say the relationship with the old/new kernel but that it is...

Ok, that's all, I hope that the above tests will become useful and please accept many thanks to everyone for the support Smile Smile Smile
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ETP


Joined: 19 Oct 2010
Posts: 487
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat 26 Jan 2013, 05:37    Post subject: sfs doesn't load  

Hi inoxidabile,

Quote:
copying sfs on a usb stick and boot having also this usb stick inserted
... it starts !


It is good that you have had success but I feel that the jury is still out on the actual cause of the problem with the original USB drive. It could have been a timing , hardware, driver or search algorithm issue. For the benefit of others who may encounter a similar problem can you please clarify the following:

1. When it booted as above with the original external USB drive what drive icons appeared on the desktop?

2. What information did the drive icons each show when you hovered your mouse over them?

3. Did you use the same USB cable with both drives?

4. The makes & models of the original and borrowed USB drive?

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inoxidabile


Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Sat 26 Jan 2013, 10:52    Post subject:  

Hi ETP,
here I am with the answers, hoping they will be as You wish... Smile

Ok , begin from the beginning... I used LxPup and in order to be able to boot in live mode when I had the original external USB drive I had also to leave inserted an usb stick having the sfs.

There aren't icons for the drives in desktop as usually happen in common officially Puppy (If You prefer I do the same test with, say, FatDog, please tell me).
But I have had a look to their proprerties using Pmount.
-> with the original usb drive:
drive - ATA CF CARD ext2 sda1
optical - PHILIPS CDRW DVD 3210 ISO9660 sr0
usbdrv - SANDISK CRUZERBLADE vfat sdb1
->with the borrowed one
drive - ATA CF CARD ext2 sda1
optical - OPTIARC DVD RW AD7543A ISO9660 sr0

The two usb CD drive are both rescue from scrap and boxed with low cost housing bought on ebay.
The origional one I have an external power supply (from mains) and the borrowed one has two usb cables, one is used for data and the othe for the supply (then, it takes it from the pc).
As You can see the cables are different.

An extra note: just for fun, I tried the LuPu 5.2.8 modified to be XPlike (it's in this forum, same section "Derivatives").
It starst without any trick wit the original USB ext drive and the nice thing is that, at beginninig, after the message of "searching for puppy files", a red message "pausing" appears for a couple of seconds and then all goes on.
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peebee


Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Posts: 1274
Location: Malvern, Worcs, UK

PostPosted: Sat 26 Jan 2013, 13:33    Post subject:  

playdayz wrote:
Latest Version Google Chrome 24 for LxPup
http://diddywahdiddy.net/Puppy500/Google_Chrome-24.Lxpup.pet
(defanged as far as possible, includes flashplayer,


Hi playdayz

Tried your Chrome24 pet in Slacko5.4 - seemed just to be missing 1 lib....

Cheers
peebee
capture4033.png
 Description   SLACKO 5.4
 Filesize   15.72 KB
 Viewed   374 Time(s)

capture4033.png


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ETP


Joined: 19 Oct 2010
Posts: 487
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat 26 Jan 2013, 15:43    Post subject:  

Hi inoxidabile,

It is good that you have also now had success with the 5.2.8 based Pup and eliminates a hardware/cabling problem. It points to a timing issue as suggested by the other respondents, an older slower pup suiting your hardware.

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