Puppi Raspberry Pi Hardware

[Dave_G]

Thanks aarf, will check it out.

antiloquax wrote:

(and you can run as root in Arch!)

Great stuff, but since I don't have a Pi as yet, haven't tried any of the distros.
Can one go straight into root in Arch without having to log in (type anything) at all?

[sickgut]

No need to use sudo, etc... Setup a permanent root account and login as root instead.

I do not have a rasp pi yet and i havent examined the debian image that somes with it, but to make a proper root login, where you type root and the password for root at the login screen rather than the user level pi and raspberry user and pass and have to use su or sudo all the time once logged it, you could do the following:

1) First of all log in normally with the default user and pass.
2) type: sudo -i (this will give you root access)
3) type: passwd password (where password is the new password)
4) reboot, poweroff, shutdown -h now or whatever to start the OS again.
5) when the login screen welcomes you, use your new root login:

user: root password: password


This will log you in as root and you will not have to worry about silly su root or sudo -i or sudo root etc etc commands. You are now root and should have access to everything that root has access to, just like in puppy with the exception you have to type something to start the computer and login still.

[sickgut]

Question:

Does the Rasp Pi debian image that is the recommended for the Rasp Pi use a Grub bootloader or something like syslinux?

If so then it is possibly able to support the user= and pass= tags in its boot code (could also be username= and password=), and if so then this can be setup to automatically log you in as root once you have setup an actual normal root account.

This is what has been done with Pussy, but Pussy is a debian live base, i do realize that this is slightly different from a normal debian base or debian arm base, but its worth a look.

[sickgut]

That looks great, Lobster. I'm still unable to put icons on my desktop
Do you know how to get rox and jwm to co-operate?
mark
(and you can run as root in Arch!)

Yeah LXDE is strange like that. Definately a WTF moment when you use LXDE for the first time and it doesnt even have desktop icon drag and drop support. Rox-filer background support is still the best solution in my opinion until you make the huge step of running something like XFCE or some other huge desktop environment

[Dave_G]

sickgut wrote:

Does the Rasp Pi debian image that is the recommended for the Rasp Pi use a Grub bootloader or something like syslinux?

That is a very good question.
I've never bothered to investigate the link (if any) between the grub bootloader and BIOS.

If there is a link, which I suspect there is, as I remember reading something
about the bootloader reading some values from the BIOS, and since the Pi
does not have a BIOS but more of a binary "blob", this could be a problem.
But then again the bootloader for Pi would be different and probably make use
of the "blob" (sounds like something from a low budget sci-fi movie )

I know that the Pi makes use of boot.asm and config.txt at boot time so
your idea may even be useable in there.

I guess one way to check is to download the image and have a look
around in it's contents but at 443MB, that's my cap for the rest of the month gone.

[sickgut]

Puppi pre-alpha running on ARM Raspberry Pi Motherboard

When you get your pannet of raspberries
this will get you started:
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/Puppi

I love this wiki article, the first step for making your rasp pi debian a puppy after you login and start the desktop is to put a puppy wallpaper as the background.

After all, this is the only different between debian and puppy and one puppy version when compared to another, the background....

Question: how do i upgrade from Puppy 5.4 to Puppy 5.5?
Answer: load the wallpaper into mtpaint and change the Puppy 5.4 logo to Puppy 5.5.

Question: How do i upgrade from Puppy 5.5 to Puppy 6?
Answer: Upgrade the browser to the newest version, then load wallpaper into mtpaint and change the Puppy 5.5 logo to Puppy 6.

Question: How do i upgrade from Puppy 6 to Puppy 6.5?
Answer: change window manager from JWM to openbox, then load wallpaper into mtpaint and change the logo to Puppy 6.5.

Question How do i upgrade from Puppy 6.5 to Puppy 7?
Answer: change window manager back to JWM and use chrome browser instead of seamonkey, and ofcause load wallpaper into mtpaint and change Puppy 6.5 to Puppy 7.

[sickgut]

sickgut wrote:

Does the Rasp Pi debian image that is the recommended for the Rasp Pi use a Grub bootloader or something like syslinux?

That is a very good question.
I've never bothered to investigate the link (if any) between the grub bootloader and BIOS.

If there is a link, which I suspect there is, as I remember reading something
about the bootloader reading some values from the BIOS, and since the Pi
does not have a BIOS but more of a binary "blob", this could be a problem.
But then again the bootloader for Pi would be different and probably make use
of the "blob" (sounds like something from a low budget sci-fi movie )

I know that the Pi makes use of boot.asm and config.txt at boot time so
your idea may even be useable in there.

I guess one way to check is to download the image and have a look
around in it's contents but at 443MB, that's my cap for the rest of the month gone.

I know the boot process isnt as straight forward as other systems, something to do with the gpu booting first and using it to boot the rest of the system or some such thing.

But have a look in /boot dir of the filesystem, if there are directories like /boot/grub then its an obvious giveaway.

I seem to be posting alot here for someone who hasnt even seen a rasp pi in real life, if i have things wrong or am overstepping my mark let me know ppl. I spose i feel drawn to this thread because the last whole year i have been slaving over a hot debian system for 24 hour stretches every 2nd day in pursuit of the Pussy OS. Now Rasp Pi is released with a debian image, im like: "Yay... its debian ... i know about this and i can help!"
If they used the fedora image instead of debian i wouldnt be here posting because i know nothing about fedora at all whatsoever.

[Dave_G]

sickgut

With the exception of Lobster, no one else here that I am aware of has a Pi either.
Any thoughts/info/suggestions are a good thing, whether one has a Pi or not.

[antiloquax]

Rox-filer background support is still the best solution in my opinion until you make the huge step of running something like XFCE or some other huge desktop environment

Yes - it's this Rox-filer background support that I am trying to do. If anyone knows, I'd appreciate it.

re Arch. At the moment, I am still logging as root, then X starts automatically. I will look at auto-login at some point soon.

There's more to Puppy than the wallpaper - must get that rubick's cube game running

[sickgut]

Rox-filer background support is still the best solution in my opinion until you make the huge step of running something like XFCE or some other huge desktop environment

Yes - it's this Rox-filer background support that I am trying to do. If anyone knows, I'd appreciate it.

re Arch. At the moment, I am still logging as root, then X starts automatically. I will look at auto-login at some point soon.

There's more to Puppy than the wallpaper - must get that rubick's cube game running

try this once roxfiler is installed and you have booted into xorg with startx:

in a terminal :

rox --pinboard=pin

the background should appear.

ofcause tho you must install rox via: apt-get install rox-filer

[sickgut]

Rox-filer background support is still the best solution in my opinion until you make the huge step of running something like XFCE or some other huge desktop environment

Yes - it's this Rox-filer background support that I am trying to do. If anyone knows, I'd appreciate it.

re Arch. At the moment, I am still logging as root, then X starts automatically. I will look at auto-login at some point soon.

There's more to Puppy than the wallpaper - must get that rubick's cube game running

try this once roxfiler is installed and you have booted into xorg with startx:

in a terminal :

rox --pinboard=pin

the background should appear.

ofcause tho you must install rox via: apt-get install rox-filer

This is the line i have inserted in Pussy's JWM config file to activate the roxfiler background:

<Program label="ROX-filer background">rox -p --pinboard=PIN</Program>

and you can start foxfiler background by using this command in a terminal:

rox -p --pinboard=PIN

you could create a script file that contains that command and save it with a easy to remember name in the main dir of your filesystem like /background.sh or something like that. So when you startx you open a terminal and type /background.sh and then the rox filer background activates. If you save the script file in /usr/bin/ then you can type the filename without any /'s in front of it. The script only has to contain that single line: rox -p --pinboard=PIN

and doesnt have to have the .sh after the name. I just do that so i can immediately identify that file as a script as .sh extention assigns a script icon for the file when viewed with rox and other filemanagers.

the command to invoke the background is very flexible and there are many options and versions of that command that will do the same thing. Note that if you start roxfiler when you are a root user, you will see a different background than when you start rox filer background as a normal user, because rox automatically seems to setup profiles for the different users, and this is a pain in the butt. So just remember to setup your desktop as the user its intended for (easy to remember if your just running as root user all the time)

[antiloquax]

Thanks sickgut,
I have been trying the"rox -p pinboard=pin", but I haven't had any success.
I'll try later and add the line you mentioned into my .jwmrc

I tried "rox -S" and I did get a pinboard - but no mouse!

[sickgut]

Thanks sickgut,
I have been trying the"rox -p pinboard=pin", but I haven't had any success.
I'll try later and add the line you mentioned into my .jwmrc

I tried "rox -S" and I did get a pinboard - but no mouse!

no mouse......

no idea how to help with that, if this happened to me... i would have no idea what to do at all whatsoever.

what happens when you are at the console and you type: xinit
this should bring up xorg and a mouse pointer and a single non resizable terminal in the screen somehwere...... does this happen?

if this step goes well, type: jwm......
and if that goes well, try the rox -p --pinboard=PIN or whatver rox command works for you

if the mouse goes away when you type either jwm or rox then they are interfering with it, however if you have no mouse when you type: xinit .....
then its an xorg problem.

ill just run a test on my pussy which is debian also to make sure im giving you the right info brb

--------------------------
update:
yes xinit bring sup a mouse pointer.
typing jwm brings up jwm once xinit is running
to run rox background, you need to use jwm to open a new terminal, as this current terminal is now dedicated to jwm, if you type in here nothing happens, and if you exit with ctrl + c then it will kill jwm.

once you use jwm to open another terminal, try: rox -p --pinboard=PIN
and the background should activate. Also once the background activates you can right click on the background and then select all the rox filer options and make it behave how you want it too.

but like i said, if no mouse after typing xinit.... your boned... or atleast i dont know how to help you.
------------------------------------------

oh yeah btw, if your jwm is configured incorrectly (most likely an entry that is manually entered into your jwmrc file that is not entered correctly) when you startx, you end up with a black screen and nothing else.

This is prob nothing to do with your situation, just letting people know about the jwm stuff incase they try it.

[antiloquax]

Thanks sickgut - this helped. First of all I couldn't "startx" without jwm. I installed xorg-twm and then got the rox pinboard working. Finally I realised that the problem was that I had set a background image in my .jwmrc. When I got rid of this, everything was peachy.
mark

[Lobster]

In an email Eben Upton mentioned:

Btw, have you considered doing a complete rebuild of your userland
with hardware floating point acceleration enabled? I think that made
the Arch Linux version much faster.

userland? Is that like Disneyland?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_space

I don't even know where to begin . . .
However it might make sense at some point . . . to someone . . .

. . . meanwhile I am gonna recreate Puppi and maybe this time get rox
compiled on another ARM processor by Barry working
http://bkhome.org/blog/?viewDetailed=02800

What I can tell you already is rox is faster
JWM I hope will be too (just using debs) - not working yet and not a priority for me
Midori is not usable (at the moment) as a reliable browser - I have only tried Chromium - much better
- however Dillo and other small browsers might work
- I may try Iceweevil or weasel this time . . .

The important thing to remember is Puppy aims to run not on a 4GB card - not even 2GB, we should run on a 1GB card, with room to spare . . . well OK 2GB would allow loads of storage

so I will be redoing and refining this process
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/Puppi

and then doing some stripping . . . of bloat
. . . soon we will have a partial Monty . . .
http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/115/wallpaper5t.jpg

IMHO a Puppi you build yourself gives a deeper appreciation
and attachment to Puppy

Puppy Linux
Built by Penguins

[antiloquax]

I've also downloaded Barry's Rox .pet. I'll have a go with it later.

[Lobster]

Does the Rasp Pi debian image that is the recommended for the Rasp Pi use a Grub bootloader or something like syslinux?

Not really sure
They do not have a bios - the bootloading is direct from SD
No SD no boot . . .

iceweasel was too slow to use (about 23 seconds to load)
icewm did not have success with . . .
netsurf which Mark is using could not find as a Deb

synaptic (very useful) is very slow

Mark as soon as you have an img of an Arch Puppi let me know
so I can burn and test if it works

[sickgut]

The rasp pi is extremely restrictive in terms of desktop performance.
However, games its fine... this is why in my mind i compare it to a playstation 2 in performance, as the playstation is fine to play games on but as soon as you use the linux kit on it, its basicly unusable for any practical use other than to use as a network server etc.

I think the rasp pi's awesome video performance has people fooled into thinking this translates into a usable desktop experience.

It takes a little bit of mental adjustment to get used to a platform that will play quake 3 in high resolution but not run firefox in a usable way. There are pleanty of open source quake 3 engine based games out there for linux that can be compiled for the rasp pi. all i can say about that is:

"mmmwwwuahahahahahaahahahahaaar..."

If you had told me this a year ago i would have laughed.... its still a strange concept.

However i am quite glad that the rasp pi can load firefox in 23 secconds, as the android tablets i have been messing with take a full minute or 2. I seen a demo of the rasp loading gimp, takes a full minute or 2... this is kind of what i expected. I just hope people here have a realistic idea of its performance, after all perception is everything.

I want to ask people here what they are actually paying for the rasp pi including taxes/ shipping and power supply, im not wanting to be nosey but the rasp is touted as the $25 linux box, but from what i gather its costing more like $70 or so after shipping, taxes and power supply for the B model, maybe a little more. I am asking this as i do plan to setup a small cluster of these things and make it readily accessible to the puppy community over my own high speed adsl2+ connection, with its own domain name and user accounts, i am wanting to provide this to people who are wanting to compile for the rasp pi, like the fedora team put it:

"the only way to make sure something is compiled 100% compatible for the rasp pi, is to compile it on a rasp pi..."

[sickgut]

Does the Rasp Pi debian image that is the recommended for the Rasp Pi use a Grub bootloader or something like syslinux?

Not really sure
They do not have a bios - the bootloading is direct from SD
No SD no boot . . .

iceweasel was too slow to use (about 23 seconds to load)
icewm did not have success with . . .
netsurf which Mark is using could not find as a Deb

synaptic (very useful) is very slow

Mark as soon as you have an img of an Arch Puppi let me know
so I can burn and test if it works

Dont worry about the actual size of the debian on the sd card, i dont think any attemps to slim it has been done by the rasp pi team. Generally a 2GB debian installation can be stripped down to 1.2gb or so fairly simply without affecting the actual workings of the OS. Also we can run squashfs for a few things as well and this takes it down more. A 2GB debian install that is slimmed of bloated junk files and squashed is about 500mb max.

i am 100% sure that when we have made some kind of workable puppi with this debian base, it will be very practical to use with a 1GB sd card, for sure.

If my Pussy linux is anything to go by, the 650m iso for the full Xtra version was actually 4GB or so before slimming and squashing. Considering that this iso contains everything you could ever wish for, im 100% sure we will be running a sub 500mb OS on the rasp pi that will still allow us to install everything we could hope for.

--------
update:

ooops i quoted the wrong post and so this reply to it makes no sense at all... sry ppl.

[antiloquax]

Mark as soon as you have an img of an Arch Puppi let me know
so I can burn and test if it works

I can certainly let you have it, but I am at very early stages at the moment. I'm hoping to add some packages later and try to fix a problem in Pygame (won't load images other than .bmp!)

mark