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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Projects
Lucid Puppy 5.2.8 - Updated ISO Version 005 - APR 05 2012
Moderators: Flash, JohnMurga
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cthisbear

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 3434
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Thu 19 Apr 2012, 20:28    Post_subject:  

You have Pwireless2 inbuilt as a Pet???

Why not have a Pet or 2 of browsers.

Seamonkey, Iron, Opera.

Choice for some without an extra download.

Didn't someone also post a Flash that spoofs Youtube etc
into thinking that your version is up to date.

Add that as well.

And Firefox has pigged out long ago.

Chris.
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jim3630


Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 792
Location: Northern Nevada

PostPosted: Thu 19 Apr 2012, 22:17    Post_subject:  

some parts of the world connection speeds are very slow and it's pay per min of connection and it's those people who will benefit from a decent browser built in.

would the cost of a decent browser put it over 1 live cd size?
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kevin bowers

Joined: 20 Dec 2009
Posts: 143

PostPosted: Thu 19 Apr 2012, 22:19    Post_subject:  

playdayz wrote:
Opinions Wanted Please

I cannot decide whether to put a browser (Firefox) into the next Lupu Plus.


In agreement with most of the other responses, the current system ain't broke, why fix it?
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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 5866
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 01:28    Post_subject:  

playdayz wrote:
Opinions Wanted Please

I cannot decide whether to put a browser (Firefox) into the next Lupu Plus.
.


I guess that maintaining the status quo would prevent the inevitable browser wars.
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shinobar


Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 2631
Location: Japan

PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 03:15    Post_subject: Browser Choice  

playdayz wrote:
I cannot decide whether to put a browser (Firefox) into the next Lupu Plus.

bigpup wrote:
Browser Choice has been a trademark of Lucid.

We Japanse team is now planning lupu-528JP, the Japanese edition.
Our discussion in the Japanese forum for your information:
The lupu-528JP will be shiped with Seamonkey-2.8-ja because the Dilo nor the Midori are not usable for Japanese. We cannot ship any OS with no browser.
But the seamonkey will not be in the main sfs. It will be shipped in the iso as an additional SFS so that the user easily load it with the sfs_load. Of course it allows to choose your favorite browser replacing the SFS.

Also we are trying to load the additional sfs automatically at the first boot. As you know, the LazY Puppy does the similar way.
Our (Japanese) problem is we do not yet have Japanese repository providing the localized browsers and applications.

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GMBudwrench


Joined: 19 Jan 2012
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 04:53    Post_subject: browser  

playdayz wrote:
I cannot decide whether to put a browser (Firefox) into the next Lupu Plus.

Like the others, I vote leave it as is, let the user decide.
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ICPUG

Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 1290
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 07:46    Post_subject:  

When I first came to Lucid I was concerned about leaving out the browser and requiring a separate download.

However, it stopped Browser Wars and Sage talking about Opera all the time! That's a good enough reason for me!

What I don't like about the separate download is the complexity of it. It demands the user gets to know about PPM pretty quickly and have a working Puppy Internet connection. This is where a separate browser sfs is really useful. If you know where it is you can download it with your current working Internet connection.

The system Shinobar mentions to make it easier to load the sfs sounds interesting.

I'm for keeping the Lucid status quo re browsers in home use Puppy. Dillo's not so bad when I have a working puppy Internet connection!

If Lucid Libre ever became Lucid Professional as I advocated a while back then I would add a browser in the base package.

Summary:
Lucid: Leave as is
Lucid Plus: Leave as is
Lucid Libre: Leave as is
Lucid Professional: Lucid Libre + browser + Wine
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kevin bowers

Joined: 20 Dec 2009
Posts: 143

PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 09:06    Post_subject: Re: Browser Choice  

shinobar wrote:

But the seamonkey will not be in the main sfs. It will be shipped in the iso as an additional SFS so that the user easily load it with the sfs_load. Of course it allows to choose your favorite browser replacing the SFS.

Seems like shinobar always has a better solution than anyone else!
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Minnesota

Joined: 11 Sep 2008
Posts: 313

PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 10:26    Post_subject: Browser in or Out
Sub_title: Browser
 

Question:

How difficult is it to create TWO flavors?
1) Browser IN.....at least BASIC flavor.
2) Second Version Browser OUT...

OK, third flavor....
Some variation of additional sfs in the ISO, as optional? Think this is done in several of the new Puppy's Could a question be asked at start up time?

WHY.... WHY a browser as part of the package. I test a lot... run most of the Flavors of Puppy as stand alone on the CD. Kind of hard to give out a of copy of the CD.... "spreading the word"...and tell the potential user ... OH yes.. .YOU must connect to the Internet to use this.

My solution... I have a special stick with the browsers pets.

Conclusion: Is there a good compromise, giving both worlds?
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majorfoo

Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 445
Location: Wish I knew

PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 12:08    Post_subject:  

playdayz wrote:
Opinions Wanted Please

I cannot decide whether to put a browser (Firefox) into the next Lupu Plus.

Thanks for opinions.


I vote - leave it as is - let the user decide which browser they want to use.
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 5237
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 15:39    Post_subject:  

Quote:
WHY.... WHY a browser as part of the package. I test a lot... run most of the Flavors of Puppy as stand alone on the CD. Kind of hard to give out a of copy of the CD.... "spreading the word"...and tell the potential user ... OH yes.. .YOU must connect to the Internet to use this.

Am I missing something?
To use a browser pre-installed or given choice to download the browser.
Do not both options require need to be connected to the internet?
Did not Windows, fight a law suit in Europe, over only having "Internet Explorer" in Windows?
My understanding is, they lost, and now Windows in Europe, is required to come with no pre-installed browser. They have to offer a choice of browser to install and use.
In the earlier days of Puppy, the biggest reason for using Seamonkey was, it had more than just the browser. E-mail, editor, etc..
Even back then there was "Puppy browser".
Sure wish that small one could be updated, but it would probably require, bloating it up, like they all are now.
Just to add to the discussion.
The never ending browser war.

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vtpup


Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 1158
Location: Republic of Vermont

PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 17:07    Post_subject:  

An unfortunate reminder: if you include a choice of browsers inside the ISO as additional sfs files, you will inflate your puppy ISO for download. So it will no longer be 130 mb -- and all the unused browsers will take up useless space. Not a problem for people with fast connections, but not everyone in the world has that.

On the other hand, an additional 15 mb download to install the browser, as it stands now, is fairly reasonable. The great advantage is that it is current.

As for confusing new users by having to select in quickpet, no more confusing than this: a pre-canned browser will rapidly become outdated after first issue. So the first thing a new user sees on opening the browser is "You are using an out of date version of___________ (name yer poison) The current version ________ contains important security updates" etc. etc. Not the most new user friendly stuff, nor one that wins puppy admirers.

So then the new user has to figure out how to update his/her browser. Which traditionally in Puppy has been a royal pain, and requires far more Linux "knowledge" than quick pet requires to select a current one in the first place. Plus far more time, and far more download time, since you already downloaded one (or more) outdated browsers in the ISO..

BTW all puppies and browsers require downloading by first time users, unless you happen to have a Puppy Linux Store nearby and have purchased a CD. Well, or a puppy wise friend -- who probably could hold your hand through the Quickpet procedure if it seems daunting to actually select a browser by clicking on its icon.) So there is no way of reducing startup downloads, except the present one, since it is the most efficient for an updated browser of choice. Only download once, and only what you want, and only the current version.


EDIT: @Minnesota I missed your point about handing out Puppy disks and wanting to avoid a further download by a new user. Suggestion, If an experienced user wants to do this, it's a simple matter to add one (or more) browser sfs files into the ISO before burning the CD. In this case they would be current.

Or you can load a browser sfs into a clean system and remaster. Then it is pre-installed, as well as current.I believe you can do this on a pfix=ram run even, but not sure about that.

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Acer Iconia A1-830 x86 tablet -- Puppy some day?
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Amgine


Joined: 21 Sep 2011
Posts: 233
Location: Washington State

PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 17:37    Post_subject:  

playdayz wrote:
Opinions Wanted Please

I cannot decide whether to put a browser (Firefox) into the next Lupu Plus.


No! For the reason for how quickly it will be out of date, also I will use FireFox but other users might not. If there is a need someone can make a Browser Puplet with all the needed stuff (Browser, flash player... etc,)
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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4368
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 17:52    Post_subject: Browser Wars and PETs-SFSs Wars  

2 items in recent posts are of interest.
  1. OOTB browser
  2. a new technology for SFS selection at/near initial
boot

OOTB browser
Having been associated with Puppy for as long as I have, there are members who have taken OOTB browser to the "Holy-WAR" level. It really shouldn't have been, but, because we, people, can be very passionate about things the browser is such.

History.
Barry ships SeaMonkey. It is the initial Mozilla (really Netscape Open source) product for which Firefox, Thunderbird grew out of during times when Internet speeds were still in dial-up.

My view is that Barry did a very good thing for the community by including this full feature subsystem as it includes browsing, email services, web-building, and does everything that multiple packages must be brought to task to accomplish.

That being said, as an OOTB browser, it can launch a good start in the desktop for any user, as all of its features are consistent with each other.

Now, the problem:
Some people feel that their browser, and only their browser, should be the OOTB browser in their Puppy.

So along comes Playdayz (who wants to establish a middle ground by giving an awkward (really backward) browser forcing a Puppy distro users to go back to the Internet (PPM) to get, install, tailor before use a brand-new browser.

In Puppyland, he who builds the distro get to choose. And like others who build distro, this is an attempt to be neural in the browser war.

One option, since Puppy was Barry's original offering to this community is to go back to presenting Barry's model and, as is done for all PUPs, let the user select something other should he choose from the Repo. But, again, that is the choice of the distro developer.

My current finding is that all of the dstros which ship OOTB with SeaMonkey gives me a basis for starter operations without the need to take precious time in browser selection needs. But, I am just one who understands that this is an OOTB production, I understand, in part, why Barry initially selected it, and I understand that it is a full-featured browser with the same features as IE/Safari/Firefox/Opera, not to mention its email services rivals/exceeds them all.

In summary, Barry presents a standard model. And the distro developers can choose to be consistent with the model or to modify it.

new Boot-time SFS technology
There appears to be a move afoot to address dealing with SFS files throughout Puppyland. This has been going on, very actively, for past couple years in this community.

The most INNOVATIVE use of SFS for system starts is TaZoC's implementation that he provided in his Puppy LIghtHouse64 "Mariner" distro. From a developer's standpoint, the developer provides " his selections" SFS.

His technology, to me, in innovative because nowhere else in Puppyland have I seen this implementation. And, in using it I have found it to be sound in its operation, and the OS with the SFSs employed are stable.

I believe that his implementation was modeled in conjunction with Shinobar and others ideas on SFSs.

My only regret is that there seems to be a confusing picture in SFSs versus PETs in the technology world of 2012. In fact, some veterans seemingly are refusing to prepare PET versions for PPM use, tracking and management.

This post is, simply, presented as ideas of historical basis. NOT as a request of any sort.


Hope this helps

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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 5866
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 19:11    Post_subject:  

Just finished throwing some old spare parts together so Lucid 528.005 live....128 mb of ram with no hdd or swap. Sound,internet and display all working on boot.

sh-4.1# report-video
VIDEO REPORT: Lucid , version 528

Chip description:
oem: ATI RADEON III

Driver used by Xorg:


Video mode used by Xorg:
Resolution: Depth:

...the above also recorded in /tmp/report-video
sh-4.1# free

Using the Radeon driver.

total used free shared buffers
Mem: 125308 121512 3796 0 13620
Swap: 0 0 0
Total: 125308 121512 3796
sh-4.1#

-Computer-
Processor : AMD Duron(tm) Processor
Memory : 125MB (73MB used)
Operating System : Puppy Linux 0.52
User Name : root (root)
Date/Time : Fri 20 Apr 2012 06:41:37 PM CDT
-Display-
Resolution : 1024x768 pixels
OpenGL Renderer : Unknown
X11 Vendor : The X.Org Foundation
-Multimedia-
Audio Adapter : VIA686A - VIA 82C686A/B rev20

-Version-
Kernel : Linux 2.6.33.2 (i686)
Compiled : #1 SMP Thu May 27 10:56:32 EST 2010
C Library : GNU C Library version 2.11.1 (stable)
Default C Compiler : Unknown
Distribution : Puppy Linux 0.52
-Current Session-
Computer Name : puppypc
User Name : root (root)
Home Directory : /root
Desktop Environment : Unknown (Window Manager: Openbox)
-Misc-
Uptime : 21 minutes
Load Average : 0.38, 0.47, 0.54

-Processor-
Name : AMD Duron(tm) Processor
Family, model, stepping : 6, 3, 0 (AMD Duron (Spitfire))
Vendor : AuthenticAMD
-Configuration-
Cache Size : 64kb
Frequency : 701.16MHz
BogoMIPS : 1402.32
Byte Order : Little Endian

Posting from Dillo so I guess it's semi-usable.
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