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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Misc
Pros / Cons of HDD install vs. USB performance
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natgab


Joined: 12 Feb 2012
Posts: 76
Location: Southern California, US

PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar 2012, 01:51    Post subject:  Pros / Cons of HDD install vs. USB performance
Subject description: Legacy OS 4 Mini or other Puppy OS
 

Question for those of you using Legacy OS 4 Mini, can someone explain to me why this puppy says to install on a HDD? Is it optimized / compiled to run on a HDD instead of a USB? Does it have a different size swap file, bigger?

I have Lubuntu ( LXDE+Ubuntu) on my Thinkpad X40, but I'm hoping that if I installed a Puppy on the HDD it would run faster. But Legacy OS is the only one I've seen that seems to tell you to install on the HDD instead of using on a USB stick. I am currently running Lucid Puppy 5.28 on my USB stick without any problems.

The reason I am interested is that my Thinkpad X40 is an ultraportable. It has a Good chip & RAM, but it uses a (non-standard) 1.8" HDD that only runs at 4200rpm. I was hoping that if I switched to a Puppy OS on this slow HDD it would run faster than Lubuntu. My only other choice is an expensive solid state HD, and for my odd-ball size HD, even more so. Sad

_________________
R61 Thinkpad Laptop CPU 2.0 GHz C2D / RAM 4.0 GB
LCD 1280 x 800 WXGA / 80GB HD
GPU 256MB Intel GMA 965 / WIFI Intel 3945ABG / OS Vista + Xubuntu 14.04
X40 Thinkpad Laptop OS Lxpup 14 LXDE (nieces toy now)
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DaveS


Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 3726
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar 2012, 02:07    Post subject:  

All versions of Puppy can be run from a hard drive and WILL be much faster than Lubuntu. Slacko is very fast and not too resource demanding. Saluki is very pretty and has the brilliant Xfce desktop, but requires just a little more in resources.
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Spup Frugal HD and USB
Root forever!
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rokytnji


Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1372
Location: Pecos/ Texas

PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar 2012, 03:42    Post subject:  

Quote:
but it uses a (non-standard) 1.8" HDD that only runs at 4200rpm


I run Lighthouse 5.0.3 on a 8gig microdrive, (CF ti IDE adapter), that runs at 3600rpm on a Amrel RT 786EX Laptop. You'll be happier with the speed vs pendrive on your install on that hardrive. Mine is a full install instead of frugal and I don't boot into ram. Runs pretty snappy. I won't Ubuntu anything on my older gear but I will AntiX or Puppy.
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natgab


Joined: 12 Feb 2012
Posts: 76
Location: Southern California, US

PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar 2012, 09:42    Post subject:  

rokytnji wrote:
Quote:
but it uses a (non-standard) 1.8" HDD that only runs at 4200rpm


I run Lighthouse 5.0.3 on a 8gig microdrive, (CF ti IDE adapter), that runs at 3600rpm on a Amrel RT 786EX Laptop. You'll be happier with the speed vs pendrive on your install on that hardrive. Mine is a full install instead of frugal and I don't boot into ram. Runs pretty snappy. I won't Ubuntu anything on my older gear but I will AntiX or Puppy.


--Did you just do a standard install, or did you manually adjust swap file? I saw something about the swap file in one of the threads on Legacy OS 4/2 I think. Just want to know if I need to do anything different as it won't be running on my RAM.

_________________
R61 Thinkpad Laptop CPU 2.0 GHz C2D / RAM 4.0 GB
LCD 1280 x 800 WXGA / 80GB HD
GPU 256MB Intel GMA 965 / WIFI Intel 3945ABG / OS Vista + Xubuntu 14.04
X40 Thinkpad Laptop OS Lxpup 14 LXDE (nieces toy now)
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rokytnji


Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1372
Location: Pecos/ Texas

PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar 2012, 11:45    Post subject:  

I manually made a 700MB /swap partition as that laptop has only 512MB of ram.

In the kernel line I inserted in grub4dos menu list on the kernel line pfix=noram.
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natgab


Joined: 12 Feb 2012
Posts: 76
Location: Southern California, US

PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar 2012, 15:01    Post subject:  

rokytnji wrote:
I manually made a 700MB /swap partition as that laptop has only 512MB of ram.

In the kernel line I inserted in grub4dos menu list on the kernel line pfix=noram.


--Puppy shows up as a single partition, do I just use Gparted and make the swap partition and mark it as swap partition? I have 30GB out of my 40GB for Puppy, plenty of room for a large swap partition.

Will Puppy find it automatically or do I need to change something? What does the second line do? I don't have grub4dos, I have regular grub installed in the MBR. I don't actually have Haiku loaded yet, as I just did the fresh install. I previously had it working with Xubntu, so i know it will behave with Linux.

_________________
R61 Thinkpad Laptop CPU 2.0 GHz C2D / RAM 4.0 GB
LCD 1280 x 800 WXGA / 80GB HD
GPU 256MB Intel GMA 965 / WIFI Intel 3945ABG / OS Vista + Xubuntu 14.04
X40 Thinkpad Laptop OS Lxpup 14 LXDE (nieces toy now)
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rokytnji


Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1372
Location: Pecos/ Texas

PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar 2012, 15:34    Post subject:  

Since you are running Haiku, (which I am not familiar with using), Did you make a /swap partition during install of Haiku or does one show in gparted already?

If so. No reason to make a /swap for Puppy legacy. Puppy Legacy will pick it up. Unless you do heavy programming and kernel building or installing from source. 1 gig of ram should be plenty for Legacy 4.

I am busy working on motorcycles right now so I won't be able to get back with you till later. I also am going to be testing Legacy 4 later when time permits me.

Oops, just read you don't have Haiku installed yet. I am like a chicken with it's head cut off today from being busy. oops, I guess you do. Told you I am a bit hurried today.
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natgab


Joined: 12 Feb 2012
Posts: 76
Location: Southern California, US

PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar 2012, 19:22    Post subject:  

rokytnji wrote:
Since you are running Haiku, (which I am not familiar with using), Did you make a /swap partition during install of Haiku or does one show in gparted already?

If so. No reason to make a /swap for Puppy legacy. Puppy Legacy will pick it up. Unless you do heavy programming and kernel building or installing from source. 1 gig of ram should be plenty for Legacy 4.

I am busy working on motorcycles right now so I won't be able to get back with you till later. I also am going to be testing Legacy 4 later when time permits me.

Oops, just read you don't have Haiku installed yet. I am like a chicken with it's head cut off today from being busy. oops, I guess you do. Told you I am a bit hurried today.


--From your experience, it seems the best bet is to make one slightly larger than my RAM size. So I will add a 1.25GB swap partition to my HDD.

I have had Haiku installed before. Both on this Thinkpad, and on my main computer. Haiku installs like Puppy in the sense that it does not make a seperate swap partition. It is comparable in speed to Puppy, but needs about 700MB minimum to install. You might want to take a look over at http://www.haiku-os.org/ and see how its going. I am partial to it since Be OS was made by ex-Apple guys and I'm a Mac user. Smile

_________________
R61 Thinkpad Laptop CPU 2.0 GHz C2D / RAM 4.0 GB
LCD 1280 x 800 WXGA / 80GB HD
GPU 256MB Intel GMA 965 / WIFI Intel 3945ABG / OS Vista + Xubuntu 14.04
X40 Thinkpad Laptop OS Lxpup 14 LXDE (nieces toy now)
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rokytnji


Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1372
Location: Pecos/ Texas

PostPosted: Tue 20 Mar 2012, 22:04    Post subject:  

Well, I finally got finished with bikes. Now I am testing Legacy Os 4 mini and I aint having much luck with it on my Acer Aspire One zg5 or Asus EEEPC 900 with dual 4gig/16gig SSD drives.

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=613612#613612
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Sylvander

Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 3455
Location: West Lothian, Scotland, UK

PostPosted: Wed 21 Mar 2012, 05:52    Post subject:  

"Pros / Cons of HDD install vs. USB performance"
Consider the business of saving session changes back to a pupsave file...
Held on either a HDD versus a Flash Drive.

1. When the pupsave is held on an internal HDD, changes are saved back to the pupsave as soon as they occur.
This is good, for reasons I will attempt to explain below.

2. When the pupsave is held on a [USB] Flash Drive, changes are NOT saved as they occur.
The default save interval is 30 minutes.
Hence, it could be as much as 30-min delay between a change being made, and that change being saved to the pupsave.
This could result in nasty consequences, as explained below.

EXPLANATION:
3. rerwin explained to me in the Lupu-528.004 thread, the problem involved in saving session changes back to a pupsave on a Flash Drive.
I have my Lupu set up so that [during the session] I only save manually at a time of my choosing [if at all]...
And also...
At shut-down, I might choose "to save or not to save".
My pupsave is held on an internal HDD, but so configured in the ISO used to make the "live" optical disk, as to be treated as though on a Flash Drive.
Here's the problem as rerwin explains and as best I can comprehend:

(a) Uninstalling a package sends it to the "snap" layer...
This needs to be immediately saved before any [similar but different = newer?] installed package is then saved.

(b) If you now install a new version of the package...
It aught to be saved immediately after completion of the install.

(c) If you don't save as in (a) above...
And then you install a new version of the package as in (b)...
And only then save [the 1st save of the session]...
The old version will overwrite the new, and hence the new will be lost. Sad

(d) The reason WHY!
d1. Uninstalling a package places the original->[Puppy SFS] version of the component in the "snap" layer.
d2. Installing a package places the new component in the "save" layer, which is below the "snap" layer.
d3. The 1st time the "save" function is used in the session, it saves everything in the "snap" layer into the "save" layer.
d4. Subsequent "saves" copy only the components in the "snap" layer that are newer than the version in the "save" layer.

4. Does that make any sense?
I have his explanation printed, and in front of me, but am I reading it right and do I understand?
Obviously, it means that the timing and sequence of uninstalls, installs, and saves are VITAL.
Else things will go horribly wrong.
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linuxbear

Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 621
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA

PostPosted: Wed 21 Mar 2012, 16:17    Post subject:  

I save my critical files and documents to a separate directory on the USB pendrive. This insures that I can get to them from any OS and also alleviates any possible problems that might crop in interplay between RAM and squash files.

As to installing to a hard drive, mosey over to youtube. Sneeky linux has a new video about installing lucid 5.28 to a hard drive. This should provide you with instructions about installing almost any version of Puppy to your fixed drive.

...Glen
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izezi

Joined: 19 Mar 2012
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Wed 21 Mar 2012, 19:05    Post subject:  

Sylvander wrote:

4. Does that make any sense?
I have his explanation printed, and in front of me, but am I reading it right and do I understand?
Obviously, it means that the timing and sequence of uninstalls, installs, and saves are VITAL.
Else things will go horribly wrong.


I'm running Wary 5.2.2 from an 8GB USB stick install. I would think that when the final save is made automagically as it shuts down that it wouldn't matter what was on the save file before that, and the next time you reboot all will be as it was before you shut down.

Ot am I reading it wrong? Razz
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Sylvander

Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 3455
Location: West Lothian, Scotland, UK

PostPosted: Wed 21 Mar 2012, 21:05    Post subject:  

izezi wrote:
am I reading it wrong?

I think you haven't understood the significance of what rerwin was attempting to convey, and I was attempting to understand and explain.
I too am struggling.
I keep reading and re-reading, and I think I grasp a little more at each reading.

e.g. You said:
"I would think that when the final save is made automagically as it shuts down that it wouldn't matter what was on the save file before that"
I think this is NOT TRUE [if I read rerwin's explanation right].
I'll explain:
1. If you uninstall a package, and don't save...
It's sitting in the "snap" layer.
And then...
2. You install an updated version of the package, which is now sitting in the "save" layer.
And then save for the 1st time...
3. The OLD version [in the "snap" layer] overwrites the newly installed copy [that's in the "save" layer], so that...
4. The OLD version is now in the "save" layer.
5. And then, any subsequent save...
Lets say it's an auto-save at shut-down, as you suggested...
Saves what's in the "save" layer [the original/old version] back to the pupsave.
Hence, NO CHANGE has been made.
i.e. The attempt at uninstalling the old, and installing the new has FAILED!
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izezi

Joined: 19 Mar 2012
Posts: 58

PostPosted: Wed 21 Mar 2012, 22:46    Post subject:  

Sylvander wrote:
My pupsave is held on an internal HDD, but so configured in the ISO used to make the "live" optical disk, as to be treated as though on a Flash Drive.


I'm not familiar with how things are handled in that setup, or Linux in genaral for that matter.

On a Wary USB install it has the Autosave feature and the Save button, but also gives you a message that it's saving to the USB file after you reboot and before it cycles. I'd be surprised if something I installed in one session wasn't there the next time I logged on.
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Sylvander

Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 3455
Location: West Lothian, Scotland, UK

PostPosted: Thu 22 Mar 2012, 03:22    Post subject:  

1. See this Post.

And then...
2. How to prevent the spurious warning as a pupsave installation of Puppy boots, that the previous shut-down was improper.

3. With the above completed, you will be able to choose to NOT save...
Neither during the session, nor at shut-down/reboot.

4. Or else you can choose to save manually during a session at a moment of your choosing...
And also whether "to save or not to save" at shut-down/reboot.

5. I should point out that regarding the change to the isolinux.cfg file in the ISO image used to make the optical disk:
[So that a pupsave on an internal HDD be treated as if a pupsave on a Flash Drive]
I have found that this did not work with all the Puppies I tried it on, only most of them.
Those on which it worked = Lupu, Dpup, Slacko.
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