roar-ng and Subito GNU/Linux 0.9.5 Beta

Under development: PCMCIA, wireless, etc.
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MinHundHettePerro
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#41 Post by MinHundHettePerro »

How should one go about to include local package-lists and local packages in roar-ng-002, if still possible?
/MHHP
[color=green]Celeron 2.8 GHz, 1 GB, i82845, many ptns, modes 12, 13
Dual Xeon 3.2 GHz, 1 GB, nvidia quadro nvs 285[/color]
Slackos & 214X, ... and Q6xx
[color=darkred]Nämen, vaf....[/color] [color=green]ln -s /dev/null MHHP[/color]

puppymite
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#42 Post by puppymite »

Home
dimakrasner.com
Dima Krasner's Homepage
Feb 11 2012
Why Fork Puppy
By dima

I'm currently working on my own distribution, Subito GNU/Linux, which is a strong competitor to Puppy Linux meant to unify its qualities with those SLAX had and put heaps of the Arch Linux and Slackware KISS goodness on top. The idea is to be the first distribution that appeals to advanced users those appreciate the speed and size of "live" distributions but also like the simplicity of Arch.

Here's an assorted list of random rants and complaints about Puppy Linux and its infrastructure, most notably Woof:

1 Puppy Linux's code (especially the code that originates in Woof) is of poor quality; the only solution to this problem is a complete rewrite.
You're mostly correct, here ...
2 Woof is extremely hard to develop for, because it contains thousands of commented-out lines of legacy code and lacks proper documentation. Any part of a distribution-building infrastructure should consists of 100%, purely good code, otherwise its output will inherit its horrible quality.
Agreed.
3 Puppy Linux has a hard dependency on many ancient, deprecated packages (such as nenscript or installwatch) that cannot be built with today's compilers. A good example for this is gtkdialog: nobody's going to port it to GTK+ 3. Puppy was not designed with the possibility of future porting or "sister" distributions in mind: it cannot be ported to another architecture easily, period.
Yes, those hard dependencies on ancient, deprecated packages _should_ be weeded out. Be a bit careful with what could be compiled in a certain environment, or another, though. Gtkdialog -> gtk+ 3, don't know, but, who knows ...
4 According to Barry, Woof 2's blessing to the world was architecture-independence, but this is a lie! The reason its first generation lacked this feature is the fact It uses a chroot call to perform certain operations, but the new version just saves the target architecture and the one it was built on in a file and performs these final operations at boot time, contributing to Puppy's horrible boot speed. This isn't the right way to implement portability.
Cannot comment, am an all x86 bloke ...
5 Woof is slow; it performs all string operations using pipes, downloads files one-by-one from a single mirror and does the big no-no of shell scripting, which is recursion (e.g endless chains of fork() and exec()).
Agreed, woof is slow. However, roar-ng's speed could be improved upon, though it's signicantly faster than woof(2) ...
6 Puppy Linux boots slowly, because it has to search all partitions for its files and dynamically loads specific drivers to determine each partition's type. Also, its kernel package is split between the initramfs (the initial file system used to locate the main one) and the main file system itself, which causes mess and makes Woof less generic.
As you'd know, woof-built puppies searches all partitions, unless a partition is specified at boot-time. Splitting of kernel package between initramfs and the main file system causes _mess_ in what way?
7 With every change to Woof, Puppy Linux becomes more and more ignorant of standards. Although the usefulness of some is debatable, compliance makes development easier, since everybody else follows them.
? - /opt/* ???
8 Altough newer versions of Puppy Linux ship with a more exotic choice of window managers, much of its infrastructure still relies on the traditional JWM and ROX-Filer, which are non-standard in many ways. Woof's desktop integration of the two and the partial support for standards are implemented in dirty ways and make it hard to use Puppy as a development platform.
Yes? And how is cwm more standard?
9 The PET package format used by Puppy's packages is quite messy and hard to work with. Moreover, it uses the traditional gzip compression, which provides a low compression rate in today's standards.
Lower compression rate than xz, agreed. Messy? What's so messy with a bog-standard gz-package with a tucked-on md5sum, including a package-specs-file?
10 Puppy Linux's organizational structure is bad for continuity. Its development team consists of a small group of dedicated volunteers and Barry Kauler, who holds all intellectual property and takes care of all big decisions. Because of this, many fans develop their own, low-quality derivatives that lack creativity or special features, which frustrate novice users because of limited support.
The ease of re-mastering a puppy, or of woofing up your own (in spite of above stated awkwardness of woof(2)) has been a long-time development-choice of BK, as I gather. How roar-ng will ease the frustration of novice users is, yet, still yo be seen ...
11 Old (7.3 and below) versions of the X.Org X server had very limited support for automatic hardware detection (provided by the deprecated HAL daemon) and required a configuration file. Many tools were developed to accomplish this, most notably SaX2 and Puppy's xorgwizard. However, newer versions rely on udev, which is indeed reliable and therefore, hardware detection is good; these tools are no longer needed, but Woof still contains xorgwizard, to provide compatibility with those old versions (most notably, version 7.3, as found in Puppy Linux 4.3.1 and Wary Puppy). The hardware support of Woof-built distributions with later versions is much worse and they suffer from a longer boot sequence, for no reason.
Automatic hardware detection is not always that good ...
12 A distribution built using Woof is limited to the use of packages from Puppy Linux and packages from an optional, other distribution.
As it stands, as of 2012-02-11, using roar-ng is limited to another distribution, with the optional add-mixture of a _certain x86_64 sample distro_ .....
And, for legacy 32-bit:ers ???

13 It is extremely hard to add support for new distributions in Woof, because support for existing ones is provided as conditions in existing scripts.
Yes, agreed. But, on the other hand, how easy is it to add local packages and local package-lists to roar-ng-002, like a roar-ng tester just queried?

To conclude - I think it's time for someone to fork Puppy Linux and compete with it, head-to-head. It's a good product which deserves a better future and more care. The only way to provide this is a revolution and not the ugly evolution, which made me write this.

Innovation, professionalism and rebelliousness: this is my motto. And yours?

There is no doubt, at all, that you're extremely innovative, cunning, canny, and .... But, rebelliousness can, sometimes mistakenly, be interpreted as youngish cockiness, and vice versa .... :P :P :P :P :D

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Iguleder
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#43 Post by Iguleder »

Time to reply! :lol:

1) /opt is standard!

2) cwm isn't standard at all, but it doesn't do all the icons mess JWM brings. By the way - I didn't claim it is standard, in any way.

3) Automatic hardware detection ROCKS.

4) roar-ng is no longer limited to two distros, unlike Woof. I'll upload a new version next week.

Thanks for your comment! :D
[url=http://dimakrasner.com/]My homepage[/url]
[url=https://github.com/dimkr]My GitHub profile[/url]

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8-bit
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#44 Post by 8-bit »

Using Woof is one thing, But have you tried the addon package for it called Bones?
It is a GUI that lets you select the packages you want and has a number of features in tabs.

I am not downing roaring, but am saying bones might be worth a look as to adding a GUI for roaring to get the job done of making an ISO.

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#45 Post by Iguleder »

No, Bones is Barry's version control system used with Woof 1.
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zomzilla
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#46 Post by zomzilla »

hi igu: i'm having a run-through by just making the default slackware puppy

but 1download stops because it cannot find busybox on dimakrasner.com

can i override/fix this?

Payoon
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Busybox

#47 Post by Payoon »

I have the same problem. The slackware packages are read well and when starting with subito it stops at busybox. The roar-ng thing is in it's early stages and I hope later we'll get some more "howto" documentation.
All in all very very interesting. My dream: a selftaylored distro for my machine with exactly the software that I need.
Greetings:
Payoon

zomzilla
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#48 Post by zomzilla »

:D another who dreams of portage-powered puppy?

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Iguleder
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#49 Post by Iguleder »

Good news - currently running a stable version of roar-ng, with many improvements. Looks good so far - it's much faster than the old version in the first post and seems to be more stable.

Notable changes:
- Moved everything under /opt to /usr.
- Added many bug fixes to the new Builder.
- Fixed the bugs in the new strippkg; now it does not perform recursive optimization, since it takes too long. It won't optimize the contents of archives.
- Moved all custom configuration and Subito-specific stuff from build scripts to the skeleton, to make the result packages more generic.
- Removed CenterIM from Subito - development of the 4.x branch halted this week. The only alternative it has is Finch (Pidgin's console interface), but I don't like it.
- Replaced some packages built using build scripts with Slackware ones, to ease maintenance.

EDIT: more features!
- Detection of the current window manager, desktop background, etc' in desksetup
- Many bug fixes
- Removed all console application menu entries
- Code cleanups
- Replaced source hacks with configuration files in the skeleton
- Automatic creation of save files without having to reboot to use them

Subito changes:
- Added dbus-glib, so Firefox works now out-of-the-box
- Replaced some packages with Slackware ones, to ease development
- Some updates
[url=http://dimakrasner.com/]My homepage[/url]
[url=https://github.com/dimkr]My GitHub profile[/url]

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MinHundHettePerro
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#50 Post by MinHundHettePerro »

Hello, Iguleder :)!

Is your new version of roar-ng in shape to share?
Eagerly awaiting .............. :)/ MHHP
[color=green]Celeron 2.8 GHz, 1 GB, i82845, many ptns, modes 12, 13
Dual Xeon 3.2 GHz, 1 GB, nvidia quadro nvs 285[/color]
Slackos & 214X, ... and Q6xx
[color=darkred]Nämen, vaf....[/color] [color=green]ln -s /dev/null MHHP[/color]

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#51 Post by Iguleder »

After some testing, I'm currently building the first alpha 1. I'm also uploading the packages and their sources - this time it's the new package format, which is smaller.

Once it seems stable enough, I'm gonna upload the new roar-ng.

EDIT: uploaded; Subito GNU/Linux Alpha 1 looks good, much better than my expectations :)

New features:
- The init script now set the console font and the keyboard map
- Everything in /opt was moved to /usr
- The new rxz package format, which is smaller and simpler than PET; the XZ compression should provide about 30% smaller packages
- hpm (Humble Package Manager) was rerwritten and supports only the rxz package format, to make it simpler.
- Builder was rewritten and merged into roar-ng.
- Added support for Nouveau
- Implemented automatic save file creation
- Some updates
- Many bug fixes in the init scripts.
- Many bug fixes and speed improvements in roar-ng.
- CenterIM was removed, since it was declared deprecated, in favor of CenterIM 5, which is still in early development stages.
- Fixed the kernel KMS bug and reduced its verbosity level.
- Some code and package clean up.
[url=http://dimakrasner.com/]My homepage[/url]
[url=https://github.com/dimkr]My GitHub profile[/url]

nooby
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#52 Post by nooby »

EDIT: uploaded; Subito GNU/Linux Alpha 1 looks good, much better than my expectations
Any link to the Subito.iso Would be cool to test it. Yes I have a 64bit
machine too even if the one I write from is just32 bit :)
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

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#53 Post by Iguleder »

Nope, not yet. I'll fix this issue today, hopefully :wink:

EDIT: re-uploaded roar-ng with a bug fix for strippkg.
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Payoon
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Error in 1download

#54 Post by Payoon »

Hi folks,
when runnung the sricpts 0setup and 1download work like a breeze.
But when I run 3builddistro I get the following message:

optimizing
./createpackages: ./skeleton/devx/package_tools/usr/bin/strippkg: /bin/dash:bad interpreter: no such file or directory
Error: failed to optimize acl

Who knows what went wrong or what is missing. :?:
Currently I am running slacko 5.1.3.1. with devx.sfs and python installed.

Greetings Payoon

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Iguleder
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#55 Post by Iguleder »

The solution is simple:

Code: Select all

ln -s bash /bin/dash
It happens because you don't have DASH installed. Any script written for this shell is also compatible with Bash, so you can do this.

EDIT: uploading a ready build of alpha 1, with the version number 0.9.0. It features Linux 3.0.21 and all the goodies mentioned above.

EDIT 2: I've started working on build scripts for Xfce. I want to see if it's possible to build a "desktop" flavor of Subito with Xfce, some major web browser (e.g Firefox) and assorted lightweight GTK applications (e.g Geany, mhWaveEdit, mtPaint, DeaDBeeF, GNOME-MPlayer, etc') based on the normal one.
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nooby
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#56 Post by nooby »

Thanks, felt cool to be able to boot it.
Then my lack of knowledge got obvious.

I have no idea how to tell it to get internet. Sorry

No need to solve this for my sake.
Most likely I can find out using google
or something or read your documents.

Another thing. Is it still 64-bit? The iirss something
take 50% of CPU resources when looking at Desktop.
Oops I am on Acer D255 an Atom N450 IIRC double core?

Is it the 64bit thing that makes it impossible to look
at my internal harddisk? Or does one have to know
how to mount the sda2 using cli?

Heheh I even fail to know how to close such a black box
apart from doing ctrl+alt-backspace

As I said only comment this if it feels important to you.
I am happy that it works this far. Felt great to be able to boot.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

Payoon
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#57 Post by Payoon »

Hi folks, hi Iguleder
My report about creation of subito 0.9 starting from slacko 5.3.1.3:
Installed Python and Slacko_dev.sfs
Change to /roar-ng-003
>#./0setup => OK
>#./1download => OK
>#./2createpackages => Error: ./skeleton/devx/package_tools/usr/bin/strippkg: /bin/dash:bad interpreter: no such file or directory
solved by > ln -s bash /bin/dash < thanks to Iguleders help.

>#Error: optipng: no such command => installed optipng
>#Error: advpng: no such command => installed advancecomp-1.15
(for those who haven't this two commands installed I have attached the pets)

#>Error: hangs when processing python => deleted python dir in processed-packages outcommented python in /conf/packages_list

Started again with
>#./2createpackages => OK
>#./3builddistro => OK

created subito folder in /mnt/home
added the following lines to /mnt/home/boot/grub/menu.lst

#Linux bootable partition config begins (for 2nd partition)
title Puppy Linux subito frugal in sda2 dir subito
kernel (hd0,1)/subito/vmlinuz boot=fll quiet vga=791 fromiso=/subito/subito-0.9.0.iso
initrd (hd0,1)/subito/initrd.gz
# Linux bootable partition config ends


copied the following files from /roar-ng-003/sandbox3/build to /mnt/home/subito
- initrd.gz
- vmlinuz
copied the following file from /roar-ng-003/sandbox3/dist to mnt/home/subito

- subito-0.9.0.iso

REBOOT!
It works and is amazingly fast.

Thanks Iguleder. In fact with roar-ng You have somehow created a distro with only 60 kb in size. Fantastic!

Payoon
Attachments
optipng_0.6.4-1_i386.pet
(82.35 KiB) Downloaded 447 times

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Iguleder
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#58 Post by Iguleder »

nooby wrote:I have no idea how to tell it to get internet. Sorry
My motto says - I'm a superhero and I can do anything ... unless I don't learn how to.
nooby wrote:Another thing. Is it still 64-bit?
Yes, but now it's even easier to port it - the infrastructure used to port it from i486 to x86_64 is integrated into roar-ng in the form of 4buildpackage.
nooby wrote:The iirss something
take 50% of CPU resources when looking at Desktop.
Irssi is fairly lightweight.
nooby wrote:Oops I am on Acer D255 an Atom N450 IIRC double core?
Posting this from Subito on Asus Eee PC 1001PX, very similar - same processor. :wink:
nooby wrote:Is it the 64bit thing that makes it impossible to look
at my internal harddisk? Or does one have to know
how to mount the sda2 using cli?
You'll have to mount your hard drive's partitions to see its contents, of course.
nooby wrote:Heheh I even fail to know how to close such a black box
apart from doing ctrl+alt-backspace
See that "first run wizard"? It has a button for the window manager's documentation.

Payoon wrote:#>Error: hangs when processing python => deleted python dir in processed-packages outcommented python in /conf/packages_list
Fixed this bug.
Payoon wrote: REBOOT!
It works and is amazingly fast.

Yay! Thanks for the report! :D
Payoon wrote:Thanks Iguleder. In fact with roar-ng You have somehow created a distro with only 60 kb in size. Fantastic!
Thank YOU! :)
[url=http://dimakrasner.com/]My homepage[/url]
[url=https://github.com/dimkr]My GitHub profile[/url]

nooby
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#59 Post by nooby »

Thanks I don't want to take up more of your precious time
so I'm looking forward to the evolution of your roar-ng and Subito.
It is very interesting to follow your dev efforts. Keep it coming
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

Jim1911
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Login

#60 Post by Jim1911 »

What is login and password for subito-0.9.0? :oops:

Thanks,
Jim

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