Do Derivative Developers have a right to complain?

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john biles
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Do Derivative Developers have a right to complain?

#1 Post by john biles »

Hello Everyone,
Over the last few years I've watched and read posts as a forum member decides to create a derivative like I have with TEENpup and now Legacy OS.

They feel excited about bringing something new to Puppy users and wait as forum members download and test their creation.

As the positive comments are posted (Normally by the same users who have tested previous Derivatives), this forum member thinks "I'm the one who has finally created what Puppy users have been waiting for"!

As the days pass comments like "Your Derivative is what I've been looking for and would be perfect if it had this or that".

Now the Derivative User begins to add these packages and finds they need help and thinks "I'll ask for help from the more knowledgeable forum members including the team working on the next Official Puppy release as forum members have told me my Derivative is exactly what they've been waiting for"

All excited the Derivative user waits and waits with little or no interest at all.

Still the requests for this or that comes in until interest dries up or another forum member releases their Derivative and the cycle begins again.

Now to the reason I'm posting this.

As the developer of the Derivative "Legacy OS" I've experienced the above over the years in one form or another. When you have a user all excited about your derivative and you spend hours adding an application they've requested only to read a forum post a few days later from the same user praising another derivative claiming it's the only version their using making requests for the same application you've wasted hours on, it can get you down.

So to all current and future Derivative creators I post this question:

Do Derivative Developers have a right to complain if others including the Official Puppy Team don't offer them support and help with their Derivative!

My answer is "NO!" as a Derivative Developer I alone decided to create Legacy OS. I can't expect or demand others on the forum help me. Over the years I've also asked for help with little or no response.

I've learn to ask for little things so the forum member who has responded didn't feel pressured and doesn't realize that the information they supplied helped as much as it did.

Also other Linux forums have supplied answered when this forum wouldn't or couldn't.

Finally if your sitting there thinking about creating the ultimate Puppy Derivative do it expected nothing in return. No one here owes you anything in return.

Your Reward? The knowledge and satisfaction you gain along the journey.
Last edited by john biles on Fri 17 Feb 2012, 03:21, edited 1 time in total.
Legacy OS 2017 has been released.

nooby
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#2 Post by nooby »

Should Derivative Developers have the right to expect praise and help?
No! But when they get praise or critics then see it as a help for to improve :)

Just kidding. I thought the title wanted us to help you.
That you actually needed our help to decide on if you had
the right to complain about us? But if I get your text you did not
need our help at all? You rather wanted to teach us something
or give a friendly good advice.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

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Colonel Panic
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#3 Post by Colonel Panic »

That's a good post John.

I hope it's understood by developers of puplets I test out and comment on here that if I find anything lacking in their puplet, or something doesn't work as well as it should, anything I say is in the context of the fact that I'm using a ten year old machine and I'm therefore enormously grateful to still be able to use it to get online and surf the Internet, use office apps, play the odd game etc. at all.

I ought really to say that every time I post, but I suspect people would soon get tired of reading it. Puppy devs and puplet creators, you all deserve a big clap just for stepping up to the plate and having a go, never mind if it all actually works out.

And that includes you btw John, you've done a fine job over the years with Teenpup and now Legacy. :)
Gigabyte M68MT-52P motherboard, AMD Athlon II X4 630, 5.8 GB of DDR3 RAM and a 250 GB Hitachi hard drive running Ubuntu 16.04.6, MX-19.2, Peppermint 10, PCLinuxOS 20.02, LXLE 18.04.3, Pardus 19.2, exGENT 200119, Bionic Pup 8.0 and Xenial CE 7.5 XL.

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jim3630
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#4 Post by jim3630 »

CP
1+. well said. Puppy devs deserve a well done even when the thing doesn't work. others often pick it up from there and run with it.

testers usually post their hardware and when something doesn't work out savvy devs figure it out. seen that happen quite often.

in the same vein users, testers have no right to complain about free software, the hard work of someone else.

of course, informing devs something does not work is another matter. most devs welcome that sort of thing and i am not talking about the usual sort of critique of one software or another.

what i am talking about is whining, out right expressions of anger, bitterness or blaming the devs in a public forum about their work because something does not work on their particular hardware or that it does not include their favorite program.

i can only guess the reason some devs do not return emails, engage forum members, or post remarks about the experience of testers is too much of the above has occurred. burn out can happen for many reasons.

the devs need community support. not just testers of their work but to encourage their efforts.

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john biles
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#5 Post by john biles »

Hello nooby,
But if I get your text you did not need our help at all? You rather wanted to teach us something or give a friendly good advice.
nooby, correct, I only mentioned Legacy OS because as a long term developer have some insight in to what a Derivative Creator should expect.

This post wasn't, isn't asking for help with Legacy OS development. I'm not looking or expecting help from forum members especially those who are part of the Official Puppy Team.

Puppy can only improve / advance if these developers can concentrate full time on the official releases. Derivative Creators need to understand this.

When I decided to create TEENpup, I privately messaged Barry K to see if it was OK to do so. Over time the focus of the Derivative evolved from a Distro for teenagers to saving old computers by offering the largest collection of useful apps I could fit on one CD.

I alone decided to begin this project and have come to the conclusion I alone are responsible to work on it, release it and if it finds a home on someones old PC Great! If not no worries. I can't expect anyone to use it because I spent my time creating it. The developing, testing, stuff ups are all part of a wonderful journey.

Derivative Developers Focus on your project, search for answers all over the net not just in this forum, the knowledge you gain doing so will bring rewards you never expected. Enjoy the journey like I have, it's worth it.
Legacy OS 2017 has been released.

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john biles
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#6 Post by john biles »

Hello Everyone,
I expected more discussion on this subject. May be I titled it wrong?

This post isn't about me or Legacy OS, I'm just interested in what forum members think about Derivatives and the expectations their developers have from other forum members.

May be you think forum members should help!

May be you're sick of new Derivative being released weekly?

May be I should leave the forum as well! LOL!! (I have no plans to leave)
Legacy OS 2017 has been released.

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darkcity
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#7 Post by darkcity »

@John

I agree with what you say about the journey - that is the important part. This is often the case when you work voluntarily.

Realistically Puppy has got me back into computing at the nuts ad bolts level - something I'd left for about ten years after Acorn went defunct.

I'd tried various Linux distro's before, but Pup made it easy.

As well as being small, quick and easy to use - Puppy's other advantage is that it makes the Linux system easier to learn.

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john biles
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#8 Post by john biles »

Hello darkcity,
I too love the way I can poke around the system mod this, delete that, destroy my whole system if I want and have. Only Puppy gives a user this freedom. :wink:
Legacy OS 2017 has been released.

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Lothar
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#9 Post by Lothar »

EDIT: Just kidding, John!
Last edited by Lothar on Sun 19 Feb 2012, 02:28, edited 4 times in total.

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Eathray
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#10 Post by Eathray »

Lothar wrote:"Teenpup" hasn't been relevant since 2003. (Stupid name too, btw. Good that you changed it.)

But you do it as a hobby, so carry on.
I'm certain this qualifies as the helpful feedback every developer longs for.

Eathray

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Lothar
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#11 Post by Lothar »

Ha! But John Biles can't complain, you see, because "no-one forced him to develop it".

That's what this whole thread is about, remember. :lol:

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#12 Post by Lobster »

Enjoy the journey like I have, it's worth it.
You are very focused John. 8)

I created a whole sparkle of Linux Tmxxines (Puppy remaster) as I need them and as a courtesy upload. I provide no support or updates.
http://puppylinux.dreamhosters.com/ce_c ... reate.html

Twinkle was the last Linux tmxxine
http://tmxxine.com/twinkle/setup.html

Remastering is now a lot easier.

I remember when MU created Muppy around the time of Puppy 2.
It was radically different, aprox. 350MB and very comprehensive.
There was a lot of learning involved. In many ways it was two years (at least) ahead of its time.

I know the woof2 system creates a commonality and base that can be seen in a variety of our recent Puppys: Wary, Racy, Lucid and Slacko.

I can not yet use woof2 - but then I needed several goes with remastering and that is now very simple.

If I work it out I may create Linux tmxxine 'Beam'

The learning and computing empowerment is really the whole of the journey. Quite a ride . . . :)
Puppy Raspup 8.2Final 8)
Puppy Links Page http://www.smokey01.com/bruceb/puppy.html :D

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john biles
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#13 Post by john biles »

Hello Lothar,
What a ripper!! Insult all you want I agree "no one forced me to make the super 2003 out dated TEENpup" and I know your going to say it next post so I'll beat you to it "Legacy OS sucks also".

Anyone who puts something in the public domain has to expect the knockers as well as those who can find a use for it.

I love any feedback I get be it good or bad.

Introducing "Lotharpup" what it does only God knows LOL!
Legacy OS 2017 has been released.

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pemasu
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#14 Post by pemasu »

Creating several puplets ie derivatives is a journey itself. Compile a kernel, compile apps and slowly learn to understand scripts inside Puppy and also to recognize something missing is the second volume in this journey. To get feedback....testers....users....and at last involvement from the others....is something which seems to happen or then not....There are now so many development threads that only those most enthusiathic Puppy ppl has energy to follow all these paths. I think this is enrichment...others feel it is waste of effort...pick your side as you want.

I have noticed that puplet builder and coders have relationship. Puplet builder creates updated build and coders get working distro which has their products and also updates included. Coders also poke inside the hood and find issues which mere gui user dont notice. It happens all the time.

I think this is homeostatic cycle of the Puppy evolution. I like it....

Oh yeah, the question....answer is....YES.

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Lothar
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#15 Post by Lothar »

[quote="john biles"]Hello Lothar,
What a ripper!! Insult all you want I agree "no one forced me to make the super 2003 out dated TEENpup" and I know your going to say it next post so I'll beat you to it "Legacy OS sucks also".
[quote]

Now John, I wouldn't do that. Making a point, is all.

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john biles

#16 Post by soundNICK »

John - TeenPup was the first derivative I used for any amount of time.
It was a best answer, five yeras ago, for an inexperienced puppylinux user...
lots of good packages pre-installed... fit on a CD... all around a good
distro.

Now, if youre asking for help developing your own project, the "official puppy
team" isnt necessarilly the best place to look... they are busy with their own
projects, and generally arent looking for new direction.
IMHO, the best way to get developer help is to cooperate with other
derivative developers... but still, puppylinux isnt what most imagine... there is
lots of breakage and lots of problems with most puppy distros... we always
need to ask: "why am I asking these people ?".
More to the point of your original inquiry - maybe it should be "IS THERE
ANYBODY OUT THERE WHO CAN HELP ME FIX problem X or Y ?". You
never really ask about any specific problem... prolly a good idea on public forum.

After using TeenPup, I settled on several debian-based puppylinux distros...
and, as solid as these have been, Im still seeing answers to problems I asked
for help with five years ago - just now showing up or fixed in these.
PCs have been here for 30 years, not 300... public distributions are still
something to gawk at (ooo a little pun there : -) and, as weve all seen, the best
of commercialware is often far short of our expectations.

John, I liked your approach with TeenPup... simple interface... working
programs... no emphasis on flashie or impressive looking features.

Good luck whatever it is youre looking for. Someday there will be a
GeriatricPup maybe ? : - )

soundNICK

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john biles
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#17 Post by john biles »

Hello Everyone,

pemasu wrote,
I have noticed that puplet builder and coders have relationship. Puplet builder creates updated build and coders get working distro which has their products and also updates included. Coders also poke inside the hood and find issues which mere gui user dont notice. It happens all the time.
Very true, the average User doesn't realize how much time and effort is spent on the smallest detail to bring the working Apps that users take for granted.

How many times has a App been uploaded as a Pet only to be discovered that it opens, shows a nice User Interface (GUI) but doesn't do anything else because the user uploading either doesn't realize or has forgotten to include it's "Backend" and was more excited by what they've created then giving the Pet the testing it needs.

Lothar wrote,
Now John, I wouldn't do that. Making a point, is all.
No worries, you didn't offend me at all, thought your comments were funny.

soundNICK wrote,
John, I liked your approach with TeenPup... simple interface... working
programs... no emphasis on flashie or impressive looking features.
There's no use adding fancy features / effects for the Hardware TEENpup and now Legacy OS are targeted at. Adding these features / effects would make Legacy OS unusable on the very Hardware it was developed for.
It is more fun to improve, modernize Legacy OS without upping the Hardware requirements. This is also one of the reasons why a number of Applications are older versions then expected. While they might come with less features than their later versions, the basics are still there allowing access to a usable application on the old Hardware.
Legacy OS 2017 has been released.

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Colonel Panic
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#18 Post by Colonel Panic »

Some good points there, John, the trouble is that the later versions of Abiword and Gnumeric offer genuine improvements over their predecessors which I've come to find indispensable.

You can now open and save Open Office files properly, for example, and Gnumeric now comes with an auto-set function for the column width which the earlier versions didn't. For that reason I tend nowadays to either use Open Office (or Libre Office) in whatever Pup I use, or opt for one of the later Puppy versions with the more current version of Gnome Office included.
Gigabyte M68MT-52P motherboard, AMD Athlon II X4 630, 5.8 GB of DDR3 RAM and a 250 GB Hitachi hard drive running Ubuntu 16.04.6, MX-19.2, Peppermint 10, PCLinuxOS 20.02, LXLE 18.04.3, Pardus 19.2, exGENT 200119, Bionic Pup 8.0 and Xenial CE 7.5 XL.

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john biles
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#19 Post by john biles »

Hello Colonel Panic,
I agree most of the time each new release of an app brings improvements. My skill, time require I focus on Legacy OS as a whole and not just on an application here and there.

I know Puppy on a whole has moved on allowing the inclusion of newer versions of apps with more features. May be one day I'll grab the latest and greatest Puppy fill it up with useful current apps and surprise you all. But for now I can only offer Legacy OS 2 and upcoming Legacy OS 4. :D
Legacy OS 2017 has been released.

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#20 Post by sheepy »

I agree, John.
I did most of the developing of my derivative by tinkering until I eventually figured it out on my own, or finding threads that dealt with something in the same area, which eventually helped me reach my destinations on some occasions.

Making a Puppy derivative is a privilege <3 Long live Puppy.

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