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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions
Puppy with Detail (Look is Everything) Community Project
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john biles


Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1408
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed 11 Jan 2012, 23:46    Post subject:  Puppy with Detail (Look is Everything) Community Project
Subject description: 5.2.8 Amazing except?
 

Hello Everyone,
Being the developer of Legacy OS you get court up in your own little world and from time to time download and have a quick look at what the latest releases of Puppy are doing and then get back to your thing.

For unimportant reasons here, I booted up Puppy 5.2.8 did what I had to do and then decided OK lets spent some time here and see what version 5.2.8 has to offer. The team that worked and I mean WORKED! on all the series 5 releases have done an amazing job. The more time you dig deeper in to whats been done the more you realize what a creative / talented team we have here on the forum.

Now to why I'm posting this here.

The average Computer User is a visual user with no interest in what makes a Computer tick.

I'm proposing we imagine we all work for the this Software company called Puppy Linux Inc and see Puppy as a professional Operating System that costs $200 what would it look like?

What does a Wallpaper in a $200 Operating System look like? (Nude Girls, Machine Guns? Don't think so)
Same with GTK Theme, Icons, Application Icons, Menu Bar again what would you expect to see in a $200 OS?

I propose forum members wanting to join in post their interest and ideas here.
More importantly you get your hands dirty and spend hours creating drop in icon themes (A tar.gz or pet package that overwrites the default icons in Puppy with a set you'd expect to see in our imaginary $200 OS)

Got a $200 GPL Wallpaper? Post it here!
Created a $$$ Gtktheme? Post it Here!

Lastly integration, how everything interacts together. I'll tested Dream Linux 5 released last week. You boot up to this nice desktop and think "this looks promising". Only when you start using it do you realize how small things let Dream Linux down. Textmaker by all accounts in a good Application. The problem is upon opening it, your presented with a Application that looks out of place, dated. A reviewer dismissed it's inclusion without even testing it. I bet it all had to do with the fact it looked different and didn't integrate well into the system as a whole.

My point is Puppy Linux must seduce new users by offering them something that looks inviting and more importantly continue that feel right through the menu right down to the icons used in each Application.

What we create here should benefit Puppy. If we're lucky some of it might find its way in to a Puppy release itself.

I'll leave you with these screen shots from forum user battleshooter

If you were showing Linux and Puppy to someone for the first time would you show them default 5.2.8 or one of these?
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RSH


Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 2412
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 01:22    Post subject:  

Hello, John Biles.

Quote:
Look is Everything

I can't agree with this saying and i am not convinced that this should be the the "flag", puppy linux should follow or leaded by.

I am convinced to say "Look is Everything" will more fit to "dumb-shock-blonded-girls-buying-shoes-and-bags" (Sorry to say that, but it has to be said) than fit to Puppy Linux.

Do you really want to make a MicPy WinUx out of Puppy Linux?

Why?

Are you convinced to get some Windows users transformed to puppy users by doing only fattening the "graphics-desktop" package?

Some month's ago i have tried a system that's flag is "Look is everything" - Kubuntu 10.04 with KDE Desktop. I am using a computer, double-core-prozessor, 2,3GHZ and 2Gb RAM. Trying to play music and recording the played audiosignal gets kubuntu stopping the music several times until disabling the desktop effects - but not done in background, no: it gives me animated information of disabling the desktop effects, that again has stopped the music! Laughing Laughing Laughing

The usually windows user (the ones i know) are guy's that want to impress and get impressed by doing window-closing-stuff using "mousequakes" (mouse gestures).

I do missing the time when a computer-user could impress its firend's, partner's etc.pp by doing his work instead of mousequakes, translucent windows and stuff like that.

Downloading tons of terabytes of illegal stuff (music, movies, software etc) and getting orgasms about the use of transparent windows while doing this is the windows user i do mostly know.

You will never get these guys to be puppy linux users!

I am sure.

RSH

Getting the Earth destroyed and man infested - but with nice looking tools like cars, planes, mobile phones!

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john biles


Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1408
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 09:55    Post subject:  

Hello RSH,
I should have said "Look is Everything once you've got the system right". In Puppy 5.2.8 the systems right, but the look while good, could be better.

This is not about dumping KDE 4.7.4 in to Puppy. It's about refining what's already there. Forum member "battleshooter" screen shots showed what could be achieved using Fluxbox not KDE or Gnome.

Kubuntu 10.04 through to 11.10 show a progress and improvements but is let down in so many ways. I tried to use Kubuntu but am left disappointed.
The only usable version of Ubuntu 11.10 series is xubuntu.

Quote:
Some month's ago i have tried a system that's flag is "Look is everything" - Kubuntu 10.04 with KDE Desktop. I am using a computer, double-core-prozessor, 2,3GHZ and 2Gb RAM. Trying to play music and recording the played audiosignal gets kubuntu stopping the music several times until disabling the desktop effects - but not done in background, no: it gives me animated information of disabling the desktop effects, that again has stopped the music!


I am replying to you on a 667Mhz Pentium III with 256Mb's of Ram which is used mainly as the families Juke Box connected to an old fashion Amplifier with big Speakers. (None of this Ipod 2 inch speaker crap) running Legacy OS 4 Mini (Testing) which comes with Amarok 1.4.7 by default. I can surf the net while my family enjoy their music.

Legacy OS is about still having a good looking desktop with usable Apps for old PC's, Bloated Apps are out.

Part of developing Legacy OS is how it looks. I get the Apps working right then go over them one by one to see if I can improve the way they look.

One advantage of a GTK theme if done right when changing an icon which is part of the theme, that icon flows through in to all or most of the GTK based apps installed in Puppy.


Quote:
The usually windows user (the ones i know) are guy's that want to impress and get impressed by doing window-closing-stuff using "mousequakes" (mouse gestures).

I do missing the time when a computer-user could impress its firend's, partner's etc.pp by doing his work instead of mousequakes, translucent windows and stuff like that.

Downloading tons of terabytes of illegal stuff (music, movies, software etc) and getting orgasms about the use of transparent windows while doing this is the windows user i do mostly know.

You will never get these guys to be puppy linux users!

I am sure.

RSH


Personally I couldn't give a stuff about Windows Users. I was thinking about Puppy Users / Linux Users in general.

I think it nice to use a Computer that appealing to look at. Why do I have to look at ugly icons etc when I don't have to?

This post is about the look and feel of Puppy. Not about filling Puppy with Bloated Apps.

Here's an example of what I mean.
GTK 1.2 based Gcontab as in Puppy 2.14 (Gcrontab.jpg) and after just the icons were updated in Legacy OS 2 (Gcrontab-Legacy-OS.jpg). Same app requiring the same resources not a replacement bloated app. Imagine Pburn with a set of beautiful icons, it lifts the app to another level.
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jemimah


Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 4309
Location: Tampa, FL

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 13:16    Post subject:  

No matter what you pick it seems two thirds of users will think it's ugly. Smile

Anyway I agree with John Biles - look and feel is of primary importance.

I'm definitely interested in design and usability help with Saluki.
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john biles


Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1408
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan 2012, 20:58    Post subject:  

Hello jemimah,
I've just been reading your "Saluki" thread my God you've been busy, thanks for taking the time to reply to this thread.

Quote:
No matter what you pick it seems two thirds of users will think it's ugly.


Very True! This thread is about finding the middle ground. A look no one really loves or hates I guess.

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stu90


Joined: 25 Feb 2010
Posts: 1401
Location: England. Dell Inspiron 1501. Dpup

PostPosted: Fri 13 Jan 2012, 09:55    Post subject:  

Hi John Biles,
While i dont agree that looks are everything - they are a major part of one's first and ongoing impressions.

A real bug-bear for me is:
Desktop icons - they clutter up the desktop, easy alternatives are available to tidy things up.
Volume icon - why is the default volume icons like something from 1980 - easily fixed
Submenu pixmap icons - these are hideously ugly, why do we even need them - several windows managers don't have icons at all, i also remove them via fixmenus for JWM.
Rox-filer icons - again the defaults are ugly - i made a theme switcher for these, while it doesn't work with every windows manager it does in my opinion improve the icons.
For wallpapers i get them daily from National Geographic and Nasa - more often than not these are stunning and interesting images and work great as desktop wallpapers.

They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder and you are never going to please all people all of the time but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try - there is a visual middle of the road out there and we need to find it then apply it to puppy. Cool

My current desktop - still room for improvement but several applications following the same icon theme.

http://i.imgur.com/WrOnc.jpg
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Fri 13 Jan 2012, 10:36    Post subject:  

The in word is "ugly". Sure I do agree 100% but the crazy
thing is that what looks okay for me can be totally or absolutely ugly for you. Totally unpredictable I guess.

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smokey01


Joined: 30 Dec 2006
Posts: 1805
Location: South Australia

PostPosted: Fri 13 Jan 2012, 10:58    Post subject:  

Consider this:

You go to a motor show and there are 10 cars to view. Nine are dull, small and unattractive, however the 10th is a shiny red Ferrari.

Which one catches your eye?

Now the sales person says you can have one for free (same price as Puppy)

Which one do you choose?

Are you able to drive it?

Does it have the features you like?

There are many analogies I could have used, but yes, looks is the first thing that catches your eye unless you are blind.

Priority

1. Looks
2. Ease of use
3. Features

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postfs1


Joined: 27 Mar 2010
Posts: 831

PostPosted: Sat 14 Jan 2012, 08:18    Post subject: Re: Puppy with Detail (Look is Everything) Community Project
Subject description: 5.2.8 Amazing except?
 

john biles wrote:


I'm proposing we imagine we all work for the this Software company called Puppy Linux Inc and see Puppy as a professional Operating System that costs $200 what would it look like?



Like the game which i have got from the toy store - i have read the instruction, have unpacked the "game" and then i am playing with the joy. If some of the devices do not work then i remove the problem in the "device manager" program. Some games have such a design that right wow.

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battleshooter


Joined: 14 May 2008
Posts: 1070
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sun 15 Jan 2012, 20:56    Post subject:  

Hi John, thanks for the kudos Smile

I'm all for a nice looking Puppy. Puppy has plenty of functionality, I don't see why the default theme can't be updated a little. I rather liked smokey01's analogy with the cars. Puppy certainly has the goods under the hood, but maybe could do with a paint job. (I hesitate to comment negatively on Puppy's looks, because there's no doubt someone loves it Confused )

Here's a package that will turn the default Puppy theme into Faenza.

http://www.datafilehost.com/download-042b36db.html

It doesn't change pixmaps and some icons here and there, that'll take more work, but this is just a basic quick change up.

What it changes
Changes existing mimetype icons to Faenza

Adds a powerapplet_tray recompiled with a Faenza theme
Adds a freememapplet_tray recompiled with a Faenza theme
Gives Retrovol a Faenza theme
Adds 2 extra themes for network_tray, one for dark panels, one for light panels (Needs to be manually selected)

Adds Faenza icon theme for desktop

gtkrc.mine changes the default GTK icons to Faenza-This will change the icons in various GTK applications, for example:

Changes ROX's default icon


If you have your own custom gtkrc.mine, Retrovol, freememapplet_tray, or powerapplet_tray you'll want to back them up as the pet will overwrite them. The pet pretty much overrides everything it changes.

As stated before, it's just an example of how Pup can be updated. It doesn't have to be Faenza, I just like it and it's fairly complete. It could be Elementary, Oxygen, or really any complete icon set.



Edit: I don't particularly think this is a $200 wallpaper, it's just what I have up right now!

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john biles


Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1408
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Mon 16 Jan 2012, 08:34    Post subject:  

Hello battleshooter,
Perfect Exclamation

Lets imagine Puppy users were asked to submit icons sets, Wallpapers, gtktkemes, Desktop Managers (JWM, ICEWM, FLUXBOX etc).

Once a sizable collection was reach, the community would be asked to vote on what Wallpaper, icon set, Desktop Manager etc should be default.

There's a number of ways to create a final iso.

This idea got full backing from the Official Puppy team.
A Puplet originating from this post
A Pet package to update the official Version.

battleshooter, one question? How much extra MB's did you creations in the 2 example desktops add roughly. I think most Puppy users could live with a 10MB increase in iso size for the right User experience.

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battleshooter


Joined: 14 May 2008
Posts: 1070
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Tue 17 Jan 2012, 00:34    Post subject:  

john biles wrote:
How much extra MB's did you creations in the 2 example desktops add roughly. I think most Puppy users could live with a 10MB increase in iso size for the right User experience.


Good estimate John, I extracted the pets I made out of the two Conky setups and it came up to 11MB including three themes. As a pet it comes up to 5MB.

Flux- 975KB
Conky- 286KB
Conky deps- 3041KB
Themes including theme chooser- 63KB
= 4938KB

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RSH


Joined: 05 Sep 2011
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Location: Germany

PostPosted: Tue 17 Jan 2012, 09:25    Post subject:  

Found older thread, "Puppy 4.2 - Desktop and Artwork"
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=34331
There are several desktop icon themes to download.

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jemimah


Joined: 26 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Tue 17 Jan 2012, 13:43    Post subject:  

The next release of saluki will include:

    every major gtk theme engine

    a large number of fonts

    cursor themes

    full size icons throughout entire menu - no mini icons

    complete gnome icon set - this can be swapped out, (and an easy switcher is included) but gnome is the only one i know for sure is complete

    compositing and true transparency out of the box

    highly customizable and integrated xfce desktop environment

    every useful xfce panel applet that I could find - I prefer this over conky and docks because my desktop is usually covered with windows

    community contributed wallpapers


There are no applications yet because I'm really trying to get core usability issues sorted first. I'm attempting to improve most of the basic puppy utilities that still look they belong in the 90s.

For people who care about user experience, Saluki is the puplet to contribute to. If you make artwork you think I should include just let me know!

With no apps, complete kernel, and full Xorg Saluki is still under 85MB.
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john biles


Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 1408
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Tue 17 Jan 2012, 20:28    Post subject:  

Hello battleshooter,
Not bad at all 11Mb's

Iwent back to your original posts in "My Puppy is more gorgeous than yours!"
and followed the links to how your created those looks.

Question is "Have you created pets already for those packages and if not would you?". I think a lot of Puppy users would enjoy a desktop that looked like those in the screenshots.

jemimah,
Thanks for starting the "Saluki" project am looking forward to your next development release.

Quote:
There are no applications yet because I'm really trying to get core usability issues sorted first. I'm attempting to improve most of the basic puppy utilities that still look they belong in the 90s
.

Right on the Money! While it's easy to change a Wallpaper, Desktop Manager etc to get a wow first impression. Disappointment sets in as a user navigates those 90's looking apps. These need to look as good as the Desktop does.

RSH,
Thanks for the link!
This got me thinking "Old Posts get lost over time which contain useful information."
If anyone knows of a Old Post that might be of interest to this post, please post it here.

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