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Saluki
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maxerro


Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Fri 09 Dec 2011, 08:17    Post subject:  

Iguleder wrote:
I think it could be nice to see if I could build a 100% static X server without any graphical applications except rxvt-unicode and cwm.


Dima, if you are into innovation, strive for a 50MB enlightenment-powered-puppy, with just a working pdf viewer and a media player. You've got all the ingredients. We'll supply sfs-add-ons to make our favorite flavors. Or at least cure your jwm-allergy because no-one would want to bother with cwm.

Last edited by maxerro on Fri 09 Dec 2011, 14:40; edited 1 time in total
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Iguleder


Joined: 11 Aug 2009
Posts: 1775
Location: Israel, somewhere in the beautiful desert

PostPosted: Fri 09 Dec 2011, 13:18    Post subject:  

technosaurus wrote:
already done - see pupngo thread


It was done, but with XFree86 - it's unmaintained, ancient and has a GPL-incompatible license.

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technosaurus


Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 4134

PostPosted: Fri 09 Dec 2011, 13:54    Post subject:  

Iguleder wrote:
technosaurus wrote:
already done - see pupngo thread


It was done, but with XFree86 - it's unmaintained, ancient and has a GPL-incompatible license.
and...
edit:
sounds like "stable" to me
seriously - Xorg doesn't actually "_maintain_" it - they may changes to code that it shares with Xorg with no real regard as to what it does to the kdrives... then a few months after it does really break something, and someone submits a patch to fix a kdrive breakage, it gets applied during the pull cycle, it has a minor effect on some randomly tested Xorg driver and the patch gets reverted rather than fixed and sometime thereafter Xorg removes another kdrive.

about the license, lets please leave the fsf fanboyism in the off topic forum where it belongs, it is still open source and freely distributable

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Last edited by technosaurus on Fri 09 Dec 2011, 15:01; edited 1 time in total
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pacer106

Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Posts: 365

PostPosted: Fri 09 Dec 2011, 14:35    Post subject:  


saluki8-1366x768 by J. P. Stunna, on Flickr


saluki8-1024x768 by J. P. Stunna, on Flickr
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technosaurus


Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 4134

PostPosted: Fri 09 Dec 2011, 17:22    Post subject:  

here is a simplified script to overlay any filesystem on /
usage:
overlay pup-6.0a1.sfs
overlay some.iso
overlay some.2fs
(supports any filesystem that busybox can mount)
if it is already loaded it will unmount and remove all broken symlinks

Code:
#!/bin/busybox ash
CLOBBER=n
mntdir=/mnt/${1##*/}

if [ -d ${mntdir} ];then
   busybox umount ${mntdir} && busybox rmdir ${mntdir}
   busybox find /[ublovetv]* /sbin -maxdepth 9 -follow -type l -delete
else
   busybox mkdir -p ${mntdir} 2>/dev/null
   busybox mount ${1} ${mntdir} 2>/dev/null
   busybox yes $CLOBBER | busybox cp -ais ${mntdir}/* / 2>/dev/null >/dev/null
fi

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scsijon

Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 997
Location: the australian mallee

PostPosted: Fri 09 Dec 2011, 18:07    Post subject:  

jemimah wrote:
scsijon wrote:
Cool If we call Saluki Puppy the start of the 6.x Series, as I think we should consider it to be with it's proposed ideas and function leads starting to appear, we can consider you getting into the fray with 6.1 with your link overlay method included!

Rolling Eyes Wink


I think calling it Puppy 6 is probably excessively ambitious and maybe a bit presumptuous.


jemimah, you and tman are moving into new structure steps with puppy, and those steps are when Barry has gone up a number, maybe I should have said 5.99, however the Saluki thread plus this one makes me think of how he worked when stepping from 3 to 4 and 4 to 5.

I do believe, from what you have achieved in the past and taking on the lead of Saluki so soon after a return, that you have the ability to lead into the next step! However, it WILL always be up to Barry whether he decides it's far enough to actually be called Puppy!

And that's enough on this topic from me!

And thank you Technosaurus, ?maybe that should go into the Developers Thread also and see what happens. Another step forward for puppy I believe!

regards
scsijon
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Sage

Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 4767
Location: GB

PostPosted: Sat 10 Dec 2011, 02:50    Post subject:  

Quote:
And that's enough on this topic from me!
& co.
Angel has the skills, enthusiasm and energy to become the new BK when he finally hangs up his boots and sets off with his gold-panning dish into the Outback. Preferably this would occur gradually with massive prior cooperation between the two of them and an ongoing permanent personal satellite phone link between them? Probably a widely approved succession. One has already made an outstanding contribution, the heir apparent will continue to do so.
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technosaurus


Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 4134

PostPosted: Sat 10 Dec 2011, 03:46    Post subject:  

scsijon wrote:
And thank you Technosaurus, ?maybe that should go into the Developers Thread also and see what happens. Another step forward for puppy I believe!

regards
scsijon
Right now I am just exploring various tangents and I have been in the "write one to throw away" phase.

for instance, my latest variation on multicall binaries:

Quote:

I got to thinking about adding many apps to the mcbs and the multiple "if ... strcmp ..." will start to take some time and add size

I wanted to do a switch case, but you can only do 1 character with it or an integer etc... so I found a way to convert the strings

change this:
Code:
echo 'int  main ( int argc, char** argv ){
#define _(x1,x2,x3,x4)  (((((((x4)<<8)|(x3))<<8)|(x2))<<8)|(x1))
switch ( _(argv[0][0],argv[0][1],argv[0][2],argv[0][3]) ) {' >main.c

and for the applets, just use the first 4 letters as such:
Code:
echo 'case _('j','w','m','\0')   :  return(jwm_main(argc, argv));' >>main.c


since _() is a macro all of the applet names get defined at compile time as a single value instead of an array of characters the only thing that gets checked at runtime is some simple math on arg0 and 1 comparison instead of X*#of applets

Did I miss anything important?
I know busybox must do something similar because there was a recent post for fixing swapon and swapoff, so need to mention that in comments I guess (its an easy fix with another switch case if we ever get names that close)

There are a few apps that share some large and uncommon libraries that could benefit from a partial static build:
ffmpeg+ffplay/*mplayer (libav*)
parted+gparted+e?fsprogs (libparted, libuuid etc...)
ttuuxxx could probably tell us a bunch of others

@Lobster - thought I saw you asking about this somewhere...
I came up with a better way to do flat a file database while exploring project management:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=582711#582711
the gist of it is
####################bzipped database file
VAR1="something" ... VAR99="another"
...
VAR1="something else" ... VAR99="another thing"
####################bzipped database file
Note: VARs can be named anything, not just VAR*

which can very quickly be manipulated like this:
Code:
bzcat $FILE | while read LINE ...
eval $LINE
#code to manipulate entries here
echo 'VAR1="something" ... VAR99="another"'
done |bzip2 -9c >$FILE~ && mv -f $FILE~ $FILE


The other big one that needs code review from someone who actually cares is localization (as a native english speaker, I really don't, I just found other implementations such a laughable PITA, that I had to try pulling on the sword)
The auto-translate part could use some help from a multilingual coder:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=583998#583998
it is certainly a lot easier and faster than gettext, but its just not something I am passionate about. Fortunately L18L is championing this cause

I am still poking around on the jwm_tools from time to time, but I already have it doing everything but the tray (which is already well covered by other apps) so it should ready for a 1.0 release soon if it gets some testing:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=70804

Anyhow, I am posting all of this because ... inspired by Rob Landley's BSD relicensing of toybox, I am going back to work on bashbox, rewriting it from scratch this time for compatibility with toysh and so I can also release it under a UIUC (BSD-ish) license ... if I get a wild hair I may even port thttpd to toybox so I can do more work on my cgi script code
... I will still be around for mentoring, but not a lot of maintaining or recompiling - so if anyone wants to take up being maintainer of any of the various packages I have compiled, I'd be more than willing to pass on the knowledge/tips/tricks that I use to make them smaller and compatible with multiple versions of Puppy (hint: autotools/pkg-config is screwing us)

oh yeah -which reminds me of another unfinished tangent - a gcc wrapper to keep autotools/pkg-config from screwing us:
Code:

#!/bin/ash
#BEGIN CONFIG##################################################################
#edit these to taste :)
XTRINCS="-I/usr/src/include"
XTRCFLGS="-ffunction-sections -fdata-sections -mno-accumulate-outgoing-args -fvisibility=hidden"
XTRLFLGS="-L/usr/src/lib -Wl,--gc-sections,--as-needed,-s"
STATIC=-static
ARCH=""
TUNE=""
CC=/usr/bin/gcc
#see first case statement to blacklist CFLAGS
#END CONFIG####################################################################

for ARG in $@ ; do
[ ! "$RESET" ] && RESET=1 && set --
case "$ARG" in
   -g*)continue #add blacklisted CFLAGS here
   ;;
   -O[0-3])set -- $@ -Os
   ;;
   -fPIC|-fpic|-fpie|-fPIE|-DPIC)[ "$STATIC" ] && continue || set -- $@ "$ARG"
   ;;
   -march=*|-mcpu=*)[ "$ARCH" ] && set -- $@ -march=$ARCH || set -- $@ "$ARG"
   ;;
   -mtune=*)[ "$TUNE" ] && set -- $@ -mtune=$TUNE || set -- $@ "$ARG"
   ;;
   -l*|-o|-Wl*)LINKING=true && set -- $@ "$ARG"
   ;;
   *)set -- $@ "$ARG"
   ;;
esac
done

[ "$LINKING" ] && LD_FLAGS=$XTRLFLGS

echo $CC $XTRINCS $XTRCFLGS $STATIC $LD_FLAGS $@ $LD_FLAGS
$CC $XTRINCS $XTRCFLGS $STATIC $LD_FLAGS $@ $LD_FLAGS

this is currently just a stub ... I planned to add more facilities for different toolchains like uclibc, musl libc, and another for uclibc++

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Lobster
Official Crustacean


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15117
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Sat 10 Dec 2011, 03:54    Post subject:  

Quote:
Angel

Must have fallen off the Christmas tree whilst no one was watching . . . Very Happy

These are the known aims of Puppy Saluki, which can be found here:
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/Saluki

    Target systems will be modern to semi-modern hardware
    ISO size should be 150MB or smaller
    Based on Racy 5.2.2 or Wary with a new xorg and kernel
    Focus will be user friendliness, innovation and artistic look and feel
    Solid, functional applications
    IceWM and possibly PCManFM2 Window managers

If any of that changes let me know Smile

Whilst we await the return of Tman and Luki 003, someone might like to try the new Libreoffice SFS in Saluki . . .
http://bkhome.org/blog/?viewDetailed=02619

Want a simple Saluki database which will work in all Puppys? - might need to dust off your coding wings . . .
http://puppylinux.info/topic/p-data-alpha-flat-file-database

Thanks Jemimah, thanks guys Smile

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Billtoo


Joined: 07 Apr 2009
Posts: 1925
Location: Ontario Canada

PostPosted: Sat 10 Dec 2011, 05:53    Post subject: Saluki  

I did a manual frugal install to an SDHC card formatted fat32.
I installed the devx sfs and compiled the ati-driver-installer-11-11-x86.x86_64.run

It's working well so far.
sys-info-111210.gz
Description 
gz

 Download 
Filename  sys-info-111210.gz 
Filesize  10.34 KB 
Downloaded  88 Time(s) 
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jemimah


Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 4309
Location: Tampa, FL

PostPosted: Sat 10 Dec 2011, 14:14    Post subject:  

technosaurus wrote:


oh yeah -which reminds me of another unfinished tangent - a gcc wrapper to keep autotools/pkg-config from screwing us:
Code:

#!/bin/ash
#BEGIN CONFIG##################################################################
#edit these to taste :)
XTRINCS="-I/usr/src/include"
XTRCFLGS="-ffunction-sections -fdata-sections -mno-accumulate-outgoing-args -fvisibility=hidden"
XTRLFLGS="-L/usr/src/lib -Wl,--gc-sections,--as-needed,-s"
STATIC=-static
ARCH=""
TUNE=""
CC=/usr/bin/gcc
#see first case statement to blacklist CFLAGS
#END CONFIG####################################################################

for ARG in $@ ; do
[ ! "$RESET" ] && RESET=1 && set --
case "$ARG" in
   -g*)continue #add blacklisted CFLAGS here
   ;;
   -O[0-3])set -- $@ -Os
   ;;
   -fPIC|-fpic|-fpie|-fPIE|-DPIC)[ "$STATIC" ] && continue || set -- $@ "$ARG"
   ;;
   -march=*|-mcpu=*)[ "$ARCH" ] && set -- $@ -march=$ARCH || set -- $@ "$ARG"
   ;;
   -mtune=*)[ "$TUNE" ] && set -- $@ -mtune=$TUNE || set -- $@ "$ARG"
   ;;
   -l*|-o|-Wl*)LINKING=true && set -- $@ "$ARG"
   ;;
   *)set -- $@ "$ARG"
   ;;
esac
done

[ "$LINKING" ] && LD_FLAGS=$XTRLFLGS

echo $CC $XTRINCS $XTRCFLGS $STATIC $LD_FLAGS $@ $LD_FLAGS
$CC $XTRINCS $XTRCFLGS $STATIC $LD_FLAGS $@ $LD_FLAGS

this is currently just a stub ... I planned to add more facilities for different toolchains like uclibc, musl libc, and another for uclibc++


This is great. Thanks!
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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 5443
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Sat 10 Dec 2011, 14:38    Post subject:  

Saluki 002 live pfix=ram.Sound and internet working,had to use xorgwizard to get desired resolution (1440x900).All the basics looking good.

# report-video
Saluki, version 0.0.2 on Sat 10 Dec 2011

Chip description:
0.0 VGA compatible controller
nVidia Corporation NV18 [GeForce4 MX 440 AGP 8x] (rev c1)
oem: NVidia
product: NV18 () Board Chip Rev A2

X Server: Xorg
Driver used: nouveau

X.Org version: 1.11.0
dimensions: 1440x900 pixels (380x238 millimeters)
depth of root window: 24 planes

...the above also recorded in /tmp/root/ as report-video,
and archived with xorg.conf and Xorg.0.log as report-video-full.gz


# free
total used free shared buffers
Mem: 1034016 468272 565744 0 63548
-/+ buffers: 404724 629292
Swap: 1228936 0 1228936
#
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 764
Location: Union New Jersey USA

PostPosted: Sat 10 Dec 2011, 15:26    Post subject: To PAE or Not to PAE  

Hi Tman & jemimah:

Welcome back jemimah. You've been missed.

To PAE or not to PAE: Racy or Quirky?

A couple of posts back Lobster quoted the stated objectives of Saluki, including the then open question whether it was to be based on Quirky or Racy.

I do most of my exploring-experimenting on a Quad-Core, 4 Gb outfit. If ever I stumble upon some combination I think might be an improvement over a system running on one of my older computers, I port it over. I hadn't been following the Quirky/Racy threads. Thinking that Racy 5.2.2 might provide some advantage over the dpup/upup/spup's they're presently running, I started with Racy and worked up a remaster on my Quad-Core. Only to discover that it wouldn't boot on my second most often used computer, a relatively recent Thinkpad T42. No PAE.
What's this PAE? I asked. And, how do you turn it off? Wikipedia provided an answer to the first question, and goggling revealed, you can't. If a system's kernel is built PAE enabled, you're stuck with it. You're options are not to use that OS, or replace the kernel: the latter being neither an intuitive nor nooby-friendly process.
So I asked the next obvious question: how significant a performance advantage does PAE provide? Perhaps my search skills failed me. I could only find two posts giving a comparison of test results of PAE-enabled and not. Both were run using Ubuntus (Ubunti?).
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ubuntu_32_pae&num=1
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ubuntu_natty_pae64&num=1
Despite those reports, Ubuntu is considering dropping support of non-PAE kernels. Maybe Ubuntu knows something I don't. Ubuntu, however, is also pushing the Unity Desktop. So I have to wonder about the state of Ubuntu's mental health. But then I am, by nature, a “Radical-Middle-of-the-Roader.” My worldview was shaped years ago by what I recall to have been a blurb on the back cover of Robert Ruark's novel, Uhuru. Too many years ago to remember exactly. It read something like, “Before you destroy a culture be sure you can replace it with something better.”
As far as I can make out from the above reports, the performance advantage of PAE vs. no-PAE –when there is one-- is insignificant. My guess is that in practice it would be Imperceptible.
True 64-bit or 32-bit with SMP are somethings different. If I understand correctly, SMP can use at least some of the advantages of state-of-the-art computers: but, if necessary, can be turned off via boot parameters.
I appreciate Tman's and jemimah's desires to create an innovative Puplet. Jemimah has already mentioned at least one potential innovation which does not depend on the presence of PAE. I also appreciate that Tman and Jemimah have, by now, put considerable effort into developing a Puplet based on Racy; as has Barry K into creating Racy in the first place. Tman and jemimah certainly know more about computers, operating systems, and the “innards” of Puppy than I. But 50 years of observing and studying human nature suggests to me that we are possessed of a quality analogous to Newton's First Law of Physics. For example, Ford not only designed, but mass-manufactured and attempted to sell the Edsel.
Racy was built with PAE. Quirky was not; and I would think it could be built with support for SMP (if it is not already) which addition would not be so distinct from the Official Quirky that applications developed for one would not work on the other.
So if it is not too late to ask: Racy or Quirky?

mikesLr
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Tman


Joined: 22 Jan 2011
Posts: 811
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Sat 10 Dec 2011, 16:06    Post subject: Re: To PAE or Not to PAE  

mikeslr wrote:
Hi Tman & jemimah:
To PAE or not to PAE: Racy or Quirky?


mikesir
Jemimah and I have already agreed that a non-PAE build is the way to go. The next step would be to compile the new kernel. Jemimah could do this, but it would save us time if we could get someone else to build a kernel for us.
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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 5443
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Sat 10 Dec 2011, 17:15    Post subject:  

Just playing around and put together a Saluki-0.0.2-k-3.10.Running live, pfix=ram it boots much faster.


Kernel : Linux 3.1.0 (i686)
Compiled : #1 SMP Sat Nov 12 21:58:58 EET 2011
C Library : GNU C Library version 2.10.1 (stable)
Default C Compiler : Unknown
Distribution : Unknown distribution
-Current Session-
Computer Name : puppypc6392
User Name : root (root)
Home Directory : /root

# report-video
Saluki, version 0.0.2 on Sat 10 Dec 2011

Chip description:
0.0 VGA compatible controller
nVidia Corporation NV18 [GeForce4 MX 440 AGP 8x] (rev c1)
oem: NVidia
product: NV18 () Board Chip Rev A2

X Server: Xorg
Driver used: nouveau

X.Org version: 1.11.0
dimensions: 1440x900 pixels (380x238 millimeters)
depth of root window: 24 planes

...the above also recorded in /tmp/root/ as report-video,
and archived with xorg.conf and Xorg.0.log as report-video-full.gz
#
saluki.png
 Description   
 Filesize   35.46 KB
 Viewed   621 Time(s)

saluki.png

saluki-0.0.2.png
 Description   
 Filesize   121.34 KB
 Viewed   671 Time(s)

saluki-0.0.2.png

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