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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Additional Software (PETs, n' stuff) » Utilities
Hot Backup for Frugal Pups Updated 2011-10-1
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Jasper


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 1124
Location: England

PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov 2011, 11:14    Post subject:  

Hi Sylvander et al,

I shall be most interested to read what others say, as it seems, to me, that it might be asking for major trouble to restore a particular backup save file (say, of Lupu 5.2.8) to the running version of that same Puppy (Lupu 5.2.8).

My regards
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8-bit


Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 3368
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov 2011, 15:52    Post subject:  

Jasper,

I have to agree with you as I had written a restore utility for hot backup files.
I also stated as part of restoring that one should boot with pfix=ram so as not to have any pupsave file loaded.
There is no magic solution to doing a restore of a pupsave to a puppy running with a pupsave file loaded.
I tried to do a hot restore and I do not even want to talk about the results.
So either boot to another version of puppy or boot with pfix=ram to delete the pupsave you are replacing with a backup.

The other way would be to copy the backup over with a different name and on reboot, you will be given the option of which pupsave file to load.
Load the backup you copied and delete the original if you do not want it.
You actually can have as many pupsave files as you want in a frugal install directory and choose between them when you boot.
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Sylvander

Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 3444
Location: West Lothian, Scotland, UK

PostPosted: Thu 10 Nov 2011, 16:21    Post subject:  

1. See this post.
I normally use Lupu booted from a live CD, with a lupusave on an internal HDD, but with that lupusave treated as though it's on a Flash Drive.
So then the other changes are made so the session is NEVER auto-saved DURING THE SESSION...
And I'm asked "Save the session = Yes/No?" at shut-down/reboot, so I can choose to not save then also.

2. Hence, although the lupusave can be read to have things loaded into RAM...
It would NOT be written to during any replacement by a RESTORED lupusave.

3. Would any subsequent write-back need to be made to the very same file as that which was read?
Or could the write-back be made to a replacement copy.
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2byte

Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 357

PostPosted: Fri 11 Nov 2011, 15:57    Post subject:  

Sylvander,

A hot restore option has been kicking around in the back of my head for a long time and I think it is possible, safe, and perhaps even easy to do. Time will tell.

Stay tuned.

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Jasper


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 1124
Location: England

PostPosted: Sat 12 Nov 2011, 08:10    Post subject:  

Hi 2byte et al,

If it is possible to make a working "hot" save file restore package for a frugal Puppy installation; then does this mean that a user can, as of now, safely delete and replace (or overwrite) the current live save file with an older backup copy?

My regards

PS I always do a "cold" restore (delete then copy and paste) using a different Puppy (others may reboot and choose an alternative save file), but if a "hot" restore is safe it would save me a few minutes (even without any new automated restore facility).
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Sylvander

Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 3444
Location: West Lothian, Scotland, UK

PostPosted: Sat 12 Nov 2011, 14:34    Post subject:  

1. "Stay tuned."
Woooohooo! Very Happy Cool

This is the kind of reason Puppy is so exciting. Very Happy
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2byte

Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 357

PostPosted: Sat 12 Nov 2011, 16:53    Post subject:  

Perhaps 'hot' restore is a bit misleading. Deleting or replacing files/libs that are in use is a sure fire recipe for disaster. The method I am using unloads the current save file from the union file system, does it's work, then reboots the system with the save file restored from a backup. That is the only safe way to accomplish it and is no more risky than choosing 'Reboot' from the menu.

The current stage of development. is wrapping it up into a GUI. Testing it on the various Pups will be next.

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Jasper


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 1124
Location: England

PostPosted: Sat 12 Nov 2011, 17:14    Post subject:  

Hi 2byte,

Thanks for your helpful response. However, would you not agree that your term "hot" restore is "totally false" as opposed to "a bit misleading"?

Even so, I am sure Sylvander and others are looking forward to, and would greatky appreciate, a successful outcome to your restore project.

My regards
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2byte

Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 357

PostPosted: Sat 12 Nov 2011, 17:24    Post subject:  

Well I'm really not sure what the absolute definition of 'hot' would be in this instance. Does having to reboot the system disqualify its use? Really, I would like to know.

I haven't made any claims that it is a hot restore to begin with BTW. Only that the idea has been in my mind for a while.

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Bert


Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Posts: 927

PostPosted: Sat 12 Nov 2011, 17:43    Post subject:  

This is becoming an important topic, in my opinion, as recent puppys seem to become more vulnerable to save file corruption. (Or maybe I'm becoming more daring, installing and uninstalling things I can not even pronounce properly Laughing )

Reading through this thread an idea popped up:

While everyone is constantly reminding each other about the importance of making regular backups, reality is most of us simply forget to do it. I suspect real life and making backups are not really compatible..

What if the 'Hot Backup' would be a fully automated process? Save files are normally small files, so wouldn't it be ideal a backup-copy is saved somewhere after each session? Puppy can then just keep, say, the 3 most recent ones and delete anything older at shutdown..

It's not that modern HDD or even the cheapest usb keys lack space to do this...

If this is technically possible, it would add a new dimension to Puppy's reliability. No longer would a corrupted save file mean starting all over, because in just a few mouse-clicks Puppy would be running again with all the settings from, say, last night's save file.

(( A great example of what I propose is Xmarks. After years of struggling to keep my bookmarks alive between browsers and multiple OS's, here comes a service that takes all the hard work out of it. It simply keeps track of my changing bookmarks, so the moment I destroy my browser or my puppy, it is simply a matter of installing the addon and I'm up and running again. ))

What do you think?

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2byte

Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 357

PostPosted: Sat 12 Nov 2011, 18:26    Post subject:  

Automating a backup at shutdown would be easy. It would be more difficult to implement it in a manner that would not draw the ire of Puppians. Smile
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Jasper


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 1124
Location: England

PostPosted: Sat 12 Nov 2011, 18:34    Post subject:  

Hi,

But what about an option to backup on rebooting or shutdown. Also what about an option to automatically reload all running programs on a reboot?

Personally, I don't need either; but if either could be easily implemented then some users would.

My regards
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Bert


Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Posts: 927

PostPosted: Sat 12 Nov 2011, 18:55    Post subject:  

Thanks for the replies!

As jasper says, it could be an option.. this 'automated hot backup' would be a pet for those who like it.

I can only imagine one reason for the puppians ire: if this pet adds an unacceptable amount of time to the shutdown process. That is something I have no clue about. When the save file is on a HD, or a usb key told to behave like a HD, the session is already saved at shutdown. It would have to be copied to another location. This could be happening in real time as well I suppose?

Jasper's idea to provide the option to backup at shutdown is in fact really clever..It would be the ideal reminder to backup and it would be the easiest thinkable way.

Thanks again!

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2byte

Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 357

PostPosted: Sat 12 Nov 2011, 19:03    Post subject:  

For sure an option would be the way to go. It would be too much like Windows to do it by default. But how best to implement it? As a prompt at every shutdown? Personally I would prefer it to be a 'set it and forget it' option like loading sfs files at boot.

Reloading the running programs? Since Puppy doesn't support sessions that would be something else that would add some extra polish to Puppy.

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Sylvander

Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 3444
Location: West Lothian, Scotland, UK

PostPosted: Sat 12 Nov 2011, 21:15    Post subject:  

1. Personally, I'd like to be in control of whether/when a backup/restore is to be made.

e.g.
2. At the moment...
When I shut down or reboot...
I'm offered the opportunity "to save or not to save" the session.

3. It would be possible perhaps, to then have a couple of options displayed at that point, or after the session has been saved.
(a) The 1st to be taken to a means to specify a location and frequency for an automatic backup, which arrangements then stay in force until altered.
This might be as an alternative to a manual hot backup made during the session.
Hence, the user could choose which method to use.

(b) The 2nd to implement or discontinue the implementation of the 1st.

3. Hence, not only would the session be saved [or not as the user likes]...
But also a backup would be made after that [or not as the user likes]...
Or alternatively, manually during the session after saving manually.
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