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Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 1141
Location: Republic of Vermont

PostPosted: Tue 24 May 2011, 14:27    Post_subject:  

Nothing I can think of, except frustration, Nooby

Thanks for the back up, but I'm afraid one person agreeing with this idea every 2 years does not a plurality make. Laughing

ps, just think of all the signatures that could be devoted to something else, the reduction of explanations needed in the forum, the fewer times irritated regulars would snap out "Google is your friend". Not to mention, the reduction of noobies dropping Puppy linux because they can't find an answer to a problem in the forum threads -- which was the topic of this thread's OP.

such a small thing....

Acer Aspire 5349-2635 laptop dual proc, 4gb ram, frugal Racy 5.5.
1999 Thinkpad 600e hacked Pent 3, overclocked 800 mHz, 490 kb running Lupu 528

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Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 758
Location: U.S., Midwest, Central Time Zone, GMT-6

PostPosted: Tue 24 May 2011, 16:31    Post_subject:  

IMO the subject of this thread smacks of sensationalism.

Understand that people mostly wander on a forum to get some questions answered, then they leave, they’re not looking to make it a lifestyle.

And who knows how many people lurk and never think to post, only they know why.

Learn more about Puppy Linux: Puppy Linux FAQ
Protect your privacy: Scroogle.org - Ixquick
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Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 332

PostPosted: Wed 25 May 2011, 17:14    Post_subject:  

OK, time for the OP to remount the soapbox ..

When I took to analysing the forum membership roster all that time ago, I was genuinely alarmed by the extreme skew in the distribution of active membership life, hence this thread. Given the exceptional quality of support on this forum one might expect yer average happy user with that first question answered to have quite a few more, over time. In most cases this was not happening; to me at least, this was a very strong hint that something might be gravely wrong, and perhaps right-able. (Following nooby's 2-year-bump I have relented only sufficiently to tone down the title a bit, now having suffered gentle rebukes from such diverse luminaries as Lobster and puppyite, both. :-) ).

The lack of any clear consensus beyond 'Don't worry, be happy' on this thread back in 2009 led to the formation of the beginners' 'Puppy needs your help too' thread in an effort to dig deeper and find out what might be going wrong / how to fix it. Analysis of the truly superb response to that thread has made clear, inter alia, that two issues above all have been off-putting to newcomers and the real biggie is the struggle they have to find the information they seek. (The Eternal Curse of all Linux??) I'm therefore bound to agree with vtpup and nooby that the search opportunities need to be made much more obvious to the raw newcomer - but ideally at square one (and likewise IMHO puppyite's excellent FAQ).

There is a snag, though. The Kennels has benefitted enormously from peppyy's generosity and wellmindedness in hosting the Puppywide search (I seem to have a problem with that G-word for some reason) and long may this continue, although I am sorry - and consequently all the more grateful to peppyy - to see he has been absent from here for quite a while. Such philanthropic hosting incurs not only cost but hassle - I'm mindful of the travails of Caneri, Raffy et al - even Barry - and there is an obvious problem in incorporating helpful links in the ISO, where ideally they should be, if their continuity cannot be guaranteed with fair confidence.

Ideas, anyone?
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Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 1141
Location: Republic of Vermont

PostPosted: Thu 26 May 2011, 11:37    Post_subject:  

In the ISO? nah.

The suggestion, a simple one I made 2 years ago, was only to change the search button in the Puppy forum heading above. -- see look up at the top of the page....

That could always be changed back to the old lousy search, if no one wanted to host the "well minded" page, or ot it could be altered to point to any current URL for it.

In fact the code for that button doesn't have to point to any particular private web page, at all. It could point to Google, with the included expression "site:murga-linux.com" which limits search results to this site.

For those who want the old forum search, a button below the new "Search" button could point to the old method and be labeled "Painful Search", as I mentioned a couple years ago.

Just think of all the wasted time and words that would have been eliminated.

Acer Aspire 5349-2635 laptop dual proc, 4gb ram, frugal Racy 5.5.
1999 Thinkpad 600e hacked Pent 3, overclocked 800 mHz, 490 kb running Lupu 528

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Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 3053
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Sun 31 Jul 2011, 18:32    Post_subject:  

From someone that could be considered as "gone" according to the original post:

There is no need to panic. My reasons, in no particular order

- If Puppy were only used by the people that contribute to it, that would be enough. Marketing? Market share? why?
- I know many people that use puppy and have never been on this forum. And some others that still use it and no longer come here. I am a perfect example. No longer around here, but always carrying puppy and using it frequently.
- The Linux Pro Magazine from June 2011, had Puppy Linux on the DVD. I would consider it a great measure of popularity and a good testament to the people that work on it.

Long live Puppy.

http://rarsa.blogspot.com Covering my eclectic thoughts
http://www.kwlug.org/blog/48 Covering my Linux How-to
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Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15117
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Sun 31 Jul 2011, 22:41    Post_subject:  

Hi rarsa,

Thanks for dropping by.
We can not interest you in Debian Pup?

. . . or Android Pup (not yet available or even pre planned)?

How about kick starting Saluki?

Tempted by our two 64 bit offerings?

Oh OK I admit it . . . trolled through your sites
to find your current directions . . . Wink

Puppy Linux

Puppy WIKI
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Joined: 23 Mar 2010
Posts: 1157
Location: Tasmania, Australia in the mountains.

PostPosted: Tue 16 Aug 2011, 12:09    Post_subject:  

newbies either flee due to limited software packages or they learn to make their own.....
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Joined: 08 Jan 2006
Posts: 484
Location: California

PostPosted: Wed 17 Aug 2011, 20:15    Post_subject:  

Most Puppies work so well and there is so much documentation available that most don't need to come here. The number of unregistered visitors may be an indication.
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Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 5
Location: Athens, GA USA

PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep 2011, 19:48    Post_subject: Got to agree with Bligh...  

Bligh wrote:
Most Puppies work so well and there is so much documentation available that most don't need to come here. The number of unregistered visitors may be an indication.

My experience is that of Bligh; and I am an old (nearly 60) computer user, an engineer (Metrologist), and computer professional most of my life - in fact, I helped write email when we made ARPAnet into "The Internet". I am very picky about bugs. I have a bad attitude and am a dead-end cynic about technology - most of it is shipped broken, and it was never designed right to start with.

This is my first post, but I have been using Puppy for 4 or 5 years now.

Puppy Linux is, without doubt, one of the finest pieces of software I have ever seen and used, and I have written beaucoups software friends. The first clinical pharmacy software, the first JIT software for Textile Plants, etc. Puppy has always WORKED JUST FINE OUT OF THE BOX WITH NO EXCUSES, NO WORKAROUNDS, NO BULLHOCKEY, and done everything asked of it without a whimper.

No, I have not tried to modify or improve it - IT'S NOT BROKE. Yes, all my hardware is top notch, hand built by me, and 100% plain vanilla - but at the very top edge of the technology envelope, or the bottom edge. I am sending this on a 12 year old HP ze5468CL with a Pentium 4 - nothing else runs on it like Puppy - yes, SUSE9 is still on it, and Win2000. But Pup is the best, from a CD.

I use Puppy at our lake house on mom-in-law's mega-fast HP, her husband was a NASA scientist - Puppy makes Vista look like the garbage it is. Last week I was mowing the yard, came in for a beer, and SHE WAS USING PUPPY - liked it better. Never used Linux in her life, almost 80 years old!! She said, "This is just so much faster and EASIER." She booted it from CD on her own, from watching me! Had moved her email messages and bookmarks ON HER OWN, from the Vista partition - JUST USING PUPPY'S TOOLS AND INSTRUCTIONS!!!! Who the heck else in the Linux world, or ANY world, can say that??

This prolix note is to say, you guys have nothing to worry about with a product like this. I am so impressed I am starting to look into the different variants of Puppy and how to make a custom version. I currently run Ubuntu Studio "Natty", that is 50%+ Debian on my quad-AMDX4 (16 total cores), OMG you won't believe it fast DAW. I mainly do music and video work now that I'm retired. But Puppy makes me ask, "Why the software overhead"? I use Windowmaker and GTK/GNU interface (can't get over the old NeXT I had...) and had everything the way I liked it in about 20 mins. when I lost a HD and used Pup to get going FAST. My system was restored and the replacement drive installed in less than an hour. Knoppix is great, but Puppy is GREATER.

You get my point. Don't overthink to the point of being hypercritical of something you have gotten really, really right. Yes, there's room for improvement, but NOT MUCH ROOM.

You have kept it simple enough to keep working right. Made good parameters and stuck to them. And made good choices that support your philosophy - but users CAN install other progs they need, and that also works. What's not to love in this world of half-fast technology that is usually all talk and no walk.

I swear all subsequent posts will be brief. Thx.

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Joined: 12 Sep 2008
Posts: 665
Location: Down-Under in South Oz

PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep 2011, 23:41    Post_subject:  

@ fudoki,

That was a very interesting and enjoyable read, especially about your mother-in-law's efforts and the fact that she chose to try Puppy....so many are afraid of anything outside the 'comfort zone', but she obviously didn't find Vi$ta a comfortable zone!

I hope BK sees your post..

This aging business really bugs me - it didn't bother me years ago, so why is it happening now??
meownplanet - puppylinuxstuff
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Joined: 20 Aug 2011
Posts: 16
Location: Washington State, USA

PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep 2011, 00:04    Post_subject: Why I use Puppy (amonst others)
Sub_title: opinions on Puppy usage

Now that I have read through the whole thread (whew)....

I've been playing with Puppy since version 2. At that time I was a Win user, because that is what my computer came with. I knew it well. I've been around since the CPM days. Before that, mainframes. I never ran Puppy full time for any reason, but I knew what it was capable of, and I kept my eye on it.

I only switched to Linux full time just a few years ago. Prior to that, I did a lot of reading about Linux and a lot of distro hopping until I found one I liked. I've used that ever since. (I still distro explore quite a bit.) I've always kept a recent copy of Puppy nearby.

I've always liked Puppy, but I never used it full time until recently. It was a work issue that caused me to use Puppy on a regular basis. The reason was that Puppy was (I mean IS) the only fully functional Linux distribution that will operate off a USB stick and not just be a mirror of a live CD. It has real permanence in the real sense of the word.

In all that time, this is the first forum I have ever signed on to. I have read through plenty of them. That should tell you something.

It is recently that the Puppy package manager and available packages have really fleshed out. Puppy's appearance has gotten more consistent and didn't look like an application aggregate. I didn't like the cartoonish icons, but they do grow on you after a while. Puppy, now, has better hardware handling that some of the major distro's I've tested. There is all sorts of little tweaks and helps embedded all over it. This wasn't there in the early days.

What I am saying is that there is less reason for anyone to come to the Puppy forum for help. It is a much more robust, attractive, accessible, and useful distribution than it was in the beginning. Puppy's strength is that it is a fully usable operating system that is easily to install and run from practically any medium. Anyone with a brain can recognize that and always keep a copy nearby, even if they don't use it their main operating system.

I really doubt that DistroWatch, surveys, and download counts are going to give you an accurate picture of Puppy users. They use Puppy in as many varied ways and for many varied reasons as there are ways to install Puppy. The real question should be, do you have a copy of it and why.
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Joined: 20 Aug 2011
Posts: 16
Location: Washington State, USA

PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep 2011, 00:07    Post_subject: Correction  

I need to correct:

Do you keep a copy of Puppy nearby, and why?
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Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 5
Location: Athens, GA USA

PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep 2011, 02:04    Post_subject: Pup on USB stick  

Have been carrying around a 2Gb USB stick with Puppy on it for over a year now. It's an amazing convenience. When you ask a friend, "Can I use your computer for a couple minutes" and they see you have your own OS, they are amazed. There have been several Puppy "converts" who watched me bring up THEIR computer in seconds, do what I needed to do, saved my own files, and stuck them back in my pocket!

This kind of stuff grows on people, I know it did on me. Now I carry my "Pup Stick" (great marketing name for pre-installed Pup - if you guys want to use it to raise $$$, it's yours) with my truck keys and Swiss Army knife.
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 3211
Location: Chickasha Oklahoma

PostPosted: Tue 06 Sep 2011, 09:03    Post_subject:  

Very Happy Hello,
As a Puppy user for some 4 odd years now, I am apt to agree about the "It aint broke" analogy..
However, I also must point out that no other distro allows the "tinkerer" in me to "dig around under the hood" like Puppy..
A "run as root" system, with a ton of modifiable scripts, and a willing and helpful forum, makes Puppy the "cats meow" for the geek in me..
In 2007 I went from a full M$ background to being a Linux noobie, and never looked back..
True, many users never see a need to post here..
But, for those who like to "push buttons", this forum is a godsend...
As is Puppy...
So easy to fix it when I bork it...
Every day is a learning experience..
One "Puppy bite" and I have Linux in my blood for good...
So to me, Puppy is a duality...
Works great OOTB, but fully customizable should you wish...
Woof woof... Wink

Close the Windows, and open your eyes, to a whole new world
Puppy Linux Users Group on Facebook

Puppy since 2.15CE...
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Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 403
Location: SE Wisconsin, US

PostPosted: Thu 08 Sep 2011, 16:32    Post_subject:  

I don't know what's up with the popularity or numbers, but I know even I have managed to interest more than a few others in Puppy. One comment I got back from another forum (specializing in another topic entirely, by the way) was something along the lines of, "Thanks for turning me on to Puppy, asterisk! Puppy is made of win! RAAWR!!" Laughing I would take that as a sign of considerable enthusiasm.

Intensity and fun matter, too, and shouldn't be forgotten in a wash of suspect numbers. Constant hand-wringing over whether or not Puppy can be a blockbuster hit with the Linux-running masses or with any group at all runs the risk of neglecting that which already makes Puppy a delight and a brilliant little system.

I actually think Puppy could do quite nicely for those few Windows power users who aren't too set in their ways to give Linux a fair shake. I know one of the nicest things about Puppy when I first tried it was that there was nothing that even vaguely resembled Clippy, or any kind of condescending, "I know better" tone in dialogues and messages, and it didn't nanny me. (Even Ubuntu, circa vers. 8.04 threw a significant amount of that annoying crap at me.)

Finally, ROX Filer is indeed incredibly awkward if you've been weaned on Windows Explorer, and I was certainly befuddled by it for a couple of weeks, but once accustomed to it, it's perfectly functional.

plumtreed wrote:
From a purely marketing standpoint, I suggest that the name, Puppy, is a choice that conveys a secondary, immature image. A stronger name might change the general feeling and impart a stronger sense of confidence.

Ah. Then I suppose I shouldn't suggest PEE: Puppy Enterprise Edition? Razz

Counterpoint: No one seems to begrudge Google when they toy with their logo either for a geeky celebration or some holiday or historical event. A slightly light-hearted name or logo can stave off a perception of the project being pretentious. In other words, the Puppy logo and name, with its overt playfulness, is sort of like the opposite of Steve Jobs's iconic turtleneck. Sure, the turtleneck, jeans and showmanship work for some, but they also have a dissuasive effect on others.

Anyway, a "sense of confidence" would matter much more if Puppy were targeted at institutional or commercial install bases. It isn't targeted at them, though, and I think I much prefer it that way. Inevitably, distributions targeted at those groups end up as "kitchen-sink" distros in order to satisfy every single use case with one distro, and that is the antithesis of Puppy.

vtpup wrote:
I have a suggestion. Change the hotlink of the search button from http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/search.php to http://wellminded.com/puppy/pupsearch.html

If you really miss the old way, add a second button next to it called "Painful Search" and add the old url.

Ladies and gentlemen, a genius resides among us.

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