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BIOS time and Puppy time (ANSWERED)
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tasmod


Joined: 04 Dec 2008
Posts: 1461
Location: North Lincolnshire. UK

PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep 2011, 03:23    Post_subject:  

I mentioned Psync because most people want at least one accurate clock in local time. Smile

Here's an extract from the man page for hwclock.

Quote:
Clocks in a Linux System

There are two main clocks in a Linux system:

The Hardware Clock: This is a clock that runs independently of any control program running in the CPU and even when the machine is powered off.

On an ISA system, this clock is specified as part of the ISA standard. The control program can read or set this clock to a whole second, but the control program can also detect the edges of the 1 second clock ticks, so the clock actually has virtually infinite precision.

This clock is commonly called the hardware clock, the real time clock, the RTC, the BIOS clock, and the CMOS clock. Hardware Clock, in its capitalized form, was coined for use by hwclock because all of the other names are inappropriate to the point of being misleading.

The System Time: This is the time kept by a clock inside the Linux kernel and driven by a timer interrupt. (On an ISA machine, the timer interrupt is part of the ISA standard). It has meaning only while Linux is running on the machine. The System Time is the number of seconds since 00:00:00 January 1, 1970 UTC (or more succinctly, the number of seconds since 1969). The System Time is not an integer, though. It has virtually infinite precision.

The System Time is the time that matters. The Hardware Clock's basic purpose in a Linux system is to keep time when Linux is not running. You initialize the System Time to the time from the Hardware Clock when Linux starts up, and then never use the Hardware Clock again. Note that in DOS, for which ISA was designed, the Hardware Clock is the only real time clock.


There's more but it wouldn't help here. This is basically what was under my 'Help' button. There's lots of history on the net regarding 'time', not least the argument surrounding GMT and the efforts to take the credit for a standard 'time' by others.

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tasmod


Joined: 04 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep 2011, 03:29    Post_subject:  

Bruce,

Quote:
If Puppy really can be synchronised


Really, yes. Psync does this as you know. However it doesn't use NIST servers but ntp does poll various 'pool' time servers on the net. This 'pool' is constantly changing, that's why Psync uses the 'pool'. It will always have at least 5 servers regionally to check against for a setting. (Latency excepted)

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Mercedes350se

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 633

PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep 2011, 03:34    Post_subject:  

disciple wrote:
... Since the default is for Puppy to use a BIOS clock set to local time, ...
But really, we should be encouraging people to set their BIOS clock to UTC, ...


Um, "Why?

As a radio amateur I am quite at home talking about GMT, UTC, Zulu but I would like my computer BIOS and Puppy time to be local. As I said in my original post it is easy to set it up this way! A quick trip into Set timezone twice a year is no hardship.

tasmod wrote:
The System Time: This is the time kept by a clock inside the Linux kernel ... The System Time is the time that matters.


Sorry to repeat myself. Um, "Why?

Having asked that I must thank you tasmod for actually answering the question posed in my initial post.
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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep 2011, 03:42    Post_subject:  

I'll suppose that Puppy never solved the problem. This is speculation only because I don't know.

We have two clocks, the RTC and the System clocks. To get these in synronize these clocks is kindergarten play.

If this is all Puppy can do, it has done nothing. The reason why is anyone can do that.

Many computers keep time in sync with time servers. If you can use those servers and Puppy keeps the time right according to the TZ, then something has been fixed.

If not, work needs be done. All a person needs to is try it.

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Bruce B


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PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep 2011, 03:50    Post_subject:  

Mercedes350se wrote:

tasmod wrote:
The System Time: This is the time kept by a clock inside the Linux kernel ... The System Time is the time that matters.


Sorry to repeat myself. Um, "Why?


The system time is the time that matters is ONLY because it is the time displayed and used.

The system time gets its time from the RTC. It is no more accurate than the RTC. Except theoretically, it doesn't drift as much. But then we have RTC clocks that don't drift much either.

The system clocks are no better at displaying accurate time than the RTC was when it booted.

The system time is software. The RTC time is hardware. Operating systems are not designed to continiously poll the RTC. One poll at boot time is all it takes.

Except Puppy will poll it a couple times likely, at least in the past, to get around the way it deals with the TZ.

The TZ throws the time off. Now what time is it? Poll the RTC and find out.

If someone wants accurate time, poll an accurately set RTC or poll a time server.

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tasmod


Joined: 04 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep 2011, 03:55    Post_subject:  

No problem, you're welcome.

I think all posters here are trying to make things clear in murky waters !

As we know, Puppy does things differently Laughing


Don't take the man page text as literal.

What it is getting at, is that once the system is booted then 'system time' takes over for everything Linux needs. The Hardware Clock is then ignored, it's just a base starting point. (Unless you mess with it Cool )

So, basically, any 'time' type app uses software, which in turn uses the system clock for its base.

The Hardware Clock does nothing in the PC except keep a startup reference time. It is not used to run interrupts, access the cpu or anything else. Those are taken care of by a crystal timebase in the PC.

That's why I wrote Psync. Hardware Clocks are inaccurate and can be out by minutes on some PCs. I like at least a second or two accuracy when I need the time. With Psync system time is very accurate, it also updates the Hardware Clock to try to keep it close. I added the facility to retrieve the time at each boot.

Beware, it's very easy to get hung up on accurate time.

I'm currently working on a program/hardware of my own for stopwatch timekeeping using interrupts, but that's another story.

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tasmod


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PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep 2011, 03:56    Post_subject:  

Oh, Mecedes350se.

73's Rolling Eyes

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tasmod


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PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep 2011, 03:57    Post_subject:  

Bruce,

I suspect we both typed explanation at the same time (sic)

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Bruce B


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PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep 2011, 04:04    Post_subject:  

Mercedes350se wrote:
As a radio amateur I am quite at home talking about GMT, UTC, Zulu but I would like my computer BIOS and Puppy time to be local. As I said in my original post it is easy to set it up this way! A quick trip into Set timezone twice a year is no hardship.


I get it, you haven't met the Unix gurus. You only think you know, until you have met them. There are people who believe in the Unix gurus.

This is why you can't win and why I'd not going to tell how to get things working right.

+ is - and - is + thus sayeth the Unix gurus.

I think you are somebody. But others think the gurus are the experts.

And in their infinate genuis they also decided to kill Linux at a specific date. Brilliant. The saved an integer to ruin an operating system and left a big mess for others.

I say if you are not enamored with the Unix gurus or play their game, you can get Linux managing time and time offsets. You can get all TZ offsets and clocks working just fine.

Just don't tell anyone how you did it. The believers in the gurus will lay you to waste.

Sometimes open source gets mean and how dare you use yer noggin when there are gurus?


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Bruce B


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PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep 2011, 04:12    Post_subject:  

Rob,

I profusely apologize for not remembering you wrote psync.

This means you must be more aware than others because psync is a comprehensive package and you have worked hard on debugging and mantaining it.

Having said that, I also agree for my own use a few minutes off is not important to me.

Conversely, I can syncronize my RTC with a time server on each boot to keep it right in sync.

Also, by luck I have an astonishingly accurate RTC. However, if I didn't I could sync it also on each boot.

My bitch here is frustration trying to explain how to do it right. It never worked.

My approach was modifying scripts which I think was the proper way to do it. But it didn't lend itself to making a package.

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tasmod


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PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep 2011, 04:23    Post_subject:  

It's OK Bruce. Very Happy My memory is failing, time for an upgrade my wife says, if only it was that simple Laughing

I suspect BK in his original code for the + and - was faced with a coding problem. He left it working as is and moved on. He is always on with something else, a feeling I know too well. I always seem to have multiple projects going.

When I wrote Psync I had to mess around with the beast of 'sed' in order to get things to display properly. Although behind the scenes it was reversed.
I think the app is at it's end development wise.

Unless 'time' goes decimal Cool

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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep 2011, 04:55    Post_subject:  

Guys I apology to all of you. Could be my poor skill reading logic into grammar soemthing.

But Mercedes do point out same text as the one I reacted to too.

How can that be compatitible with what Rob tazmod writes.

And we still ahve this problem that it ask if the hardware should agree with software or vice versa.

My software time (system) seems to comply with local time I don't dare to find out the rtc hardware time.

Then I am in for a mess again.

So I do wish someone could solve this without having to use your sync thing Rob.

I do trust it is an ingenious program but it goes out and contact a server.

I rather do that manually and maybe there are better ones but I use this one http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=1440

I know I used another some years ago so any suggestion which one is best to use are appreciated.

RadioAmateur. I have wanted to be one since 1960 something. I even bought a Morse course on 45RPM records and then a Tape one and a software one that was for free too and I even build a transmitter running on a three cell battery. QRPp say 4.5 x 0.010AMPS 10 MAmps? what is that? 0.0045 Watts and tried to contact a true HAM some mile away where I lived. He pretended him did not hear my call. I guess to protect both of us him knowing them listen in to 40 meters band on Sundays.

so I ask a teen friend some two years yonger to listen for my CQ DX QRPP de SM 5 ZXY and sure it sounded S3 something. Barely there but what to expect with no PA and Antenna a 6 meter LongWire to nearest tree. Directly from the Collector? of the small transistor VFO.
Then some 3 years later when doing obligatory Military service I built a Xtal transmittre on 3.5 CW band some 2 Watts but just a rudimenatary Buffer stage as PA and used their Dipole on the HAM shack at the Cantina. And practiced there. Very exciting but Morse was too difficult.

I think one need to be able to hold one or two chars in head while hands write down the with lagging behind. My brain fails such even when I do music. I get lost very easily. get distracted. sorry derail.

so should the RTC CMOS hardware be set to UTC or Local time?

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disciple

Joined: 20 May 2006
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep 2011, 05:48    Post_subject:  

Mercedes350se wrote:
disciple wrote:
... Since the default is for Puppy to use a BIOS clock set to local time, ...
But really, we should be encouraging people to set their BIOS clock to UTC, ...


Um, "Why?

As a radio amateur I am quite at home talking about GMT, UTC, Zulu but I would like my computer BIOS and Puppy time to be local. As I said in my original post it is easy to set it up this way! A quick trip into Set timezone twice a year is no hardship.

Why?
[edit](1)[/edit] Because someone might e.g. set up a computer for their grandmother with alzheimers who is too timid to look for how to change the clock, and will forget about daylight saving anyway. Or someone might go away for a week when the clock changes and the only people using their computer in the meantime might be small children, and if the time isn't changed automatically the times on things will be messed up.
It's not like using UTC for the BIOS time would be a hardship. People don't go into the BIOS to look at the clock...
[edit](2) Because the status quo means that people might conclude that Windows is smarter at handling time than Linux, when the fact is that Windows is very stupid at handling time, and Linux is not.[/edit]

nooby wrote:
so should the RTC CMOS hardware be set to UTC or Local time?

It depends whether you want to dual boot with Windows (use local time), or either move between timezones or use daylight saving or summer time, and have the clock automatically update (use UTC). Apart from that it probably doesn't matter to you.

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nooby

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PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep 2011, 06:00    Post_subject:  

oops. That was a good answer but not sure what to do now Smile

It all depends. That is what I often say to other noobs like me asking things Smile

okay. Then I maybe should go back to local time from UTC due to I have to go into Ms Win some day to upgrade my SonyEricson Smartphones and the Nokia Smartphone and the Huawei such too Smile

So dualboot I sure do and that would change the RTC automatically to local then if I get you? Haha Microsoft rules the Earth.

So once again now. Why was it bad to let RTC be Local time?

what bad does happen?

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L18L

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PostPosted: Mon 05 Sep 2011, 06:29    Post_subject: BIOS time and Puppy time
Sub_title: local time
 

nooby wrote:
So once again now. Why was it bad to let RTC be Local time?

what bad does happen?


If adjusting your time (change from summer to winter) is not bad for you (for me it is not bad) then use local time Smile

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This thread reminds me now of Tucholsky who ended his life in Sweden
.../woher-kommen-die-loecher-im-kaese.html...
Laughing

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