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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions
A true concern about the very future of Puppylinux
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amigo

Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 2238

PostPosted: Sun 21 Aug 2011, 08:59    Post subject:  

nooby, why on earth would you want to be able to run phone as user 'root'. I think you don't really understand what is meant by 'rooting' a phomne or tablet -it has nothing to do with the user called 'root' or being able to run the device as that user.
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Sun 21 Aug 2011, 13:00    Post subject:  

Why do them use that word then? Sure I am a poor reader of text but them do say that them root it. so what else could it mean?
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dagodemon42

Joined: 04 Jun 2011
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Sun 21 Aug 2011, 14:04    Post subject:  

Nooby, to "root" an Android phone or other device means to gain root priveleges. These are needed to install custom firmware. The device makers don't wan't you doing this. "Jailbreaking" is another term for gaining root priveleges. The hacking community comes up with a way to do this, and the manufacturers defeat it with firmware updates.
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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4238
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Mon 22 Aug 2011, 14:56    Post subject:  

FWIW there is a lot of truth (and untruth) in what is said throughout this thread.

The untruth: The PCs will fade away. The truth: The PC (Personal Computer) will morph into Personal Computing (PC with a new meaning)

Yes, the OP is correct about thinking of how Puppy will look 5 years from now. Much of what we do today is aimed at current desktops in this forum's community

But, like the OP, I have been watching and helping others in moving to current technologies ONLY because I foresee a future where they won't need to change things over the next 3-5 years.

This does not mean that the technology I put them on will be around. No, it means that for the "use requirement" they have, the technology will serve them without change for that long/longer.

Example, 3 weeks ago, I had a senior member who is NOT savvy about computers wanting to make a purchase for PC so that he can "do Internet". Every relative he had suggested some kind of computer without ever looking at his lifestyle. I have spent my whole life in requirements planning and have been involved with systems for over 43 years (I started as a child).

My solution for him .... GoogleTV from Logitech for $99. Why,
  • He spends a lot of time watching TV, answering the tele, and his Grandson+Son got him an Android at the beginning of the year.
  • He loves the simple use of his Android for communicating with his Grandson who is off to college.
  • He is technology challenged
  • He likes Windows because he considers it easy to use (actually he is accustomed to that look)
  • He is adamant about refusing to carry anything around other than his phone.
  • He has a Google ID for gmail.
  • He has a 8 month old, modern, flat TV hanging on hs wall (almost 50 inches).
  • He already has a antique (4 years old) desktop that his nephew has transferred a lot of his albums (vinyl) into a folder shared by that Windows PC.
Not only has he been grateful, but I can't stop the telephone calls from him about another fearture he has found useful that he is doing from his armchair.

If you don't know what Logitech Revue is doing YOU had better look. A centralized entertainment focus that he controls from his Android or from the keyboard. This "ole guy" (like many of us) is thrilled as he feels this is something he can easily learn and make useful....from his armchair in the eves. He now has access to his PC, he has access to his data on the PC, he has access to his TV programming, he has access to his Photos and Music from the iIternet, he is thrilled that when he takes a picture now, he can instantly see it on the internet, and he just yesterday brought the companion camera so that he can have and do video calling with his grandkids. And, he didnt have to have technician to instruct him on that . Just my standing with him at setup.

When things get this easy to use productively and when you can do if from your personal device (Android in this case) you have just dealt a blow where less and less people will be sitting in front of desktops and laptops.

Oh, and remember my announcement months ago about IBM and vocal app development. Did anyone other than me understand that no keyboard was used?

This is NOT anti-desktop/laptop as it is about the changing landscape we are seeing in developed countries. I only wish that these changes could cascade to everyone worldwide as I fear, the divide is getting bigger and bigger.

Yep, the "PC" is changing in what it used to mean, to the new definition that "PC" is becoming!

The Paradigm from what we had for years on the desktop is changing to having constant access, services, and applications from a places we never dreamed of in the past. And the new vendors are making it so easy for users that its no wonder thar they are successful. They are moving us rapidly from keyboard-mouse to "gestures" with keyboard-mouse being secondary.

We are still talking PC (Intel/AMD/ARM/TI/Motoroa) in this thread. Its NOT any of those. Its the new meaning of PC.

If you want to start a new thread or a new area on this froum, it should be about gesture and voice technologies and advancements-expansion for those in front of some screened device. Now that the future!

IMHO

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puppyiso


Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Posts: 595

PostPosted: Tue 23 Aug 2011, 03:29    Post subject:  

Whether it is called PC or whatever, whether PC survives for longer than expectected period of time, important thing is that most of the puppies being made are for x86 architecture which is quite old in the term of computer world.

I have seen some effort trying other CPUs here but no ARM so far.

So what I am suggesting is to build or to try ARM based Puppy.

We are being surrounded by ARM cpus daily and they will replace the classic intel x86 before we know it.

I do have old low powered x86 computer at home and a slightly more powerful ATOM processor in a netbook.

I couldn't bear to use the old low powered x86. Just tooooooo slow and many things are simply not possible.

I don't understand why some one would want those white elephants, I mean snails .

Please don't say old folks would use them. They worked hard all their life and the damn slow machine is all they get?

They, including a senor like me, deserve the fastest, most powerful computer currently available. They should enjoy the fruits of their life long labor.

Old computers are sold to Africa but it is an insult to the people. The blacks shouldn't take over white people's headache. It will only deepen the digital divide which is already serious.

When I use the internet, slow machine consum more time to get the same amount of information just because they are really under powered.

Old computers are just junks nothing more. That's why Lord Steve Jobs make McBook air mostly recyclable.(Yeah the guy is Lord now haha..)

The difference in function and power between PC and tablet would be blurred soon. It's just a matter of time.

That small iPad will become more powerful and will have more High Density resolusions. And then there are huge LCD, LED and 3D TVs.

These two will be great mates. You can connect them with HDMI or wireless connectors. Wired or wirelessed keyboard and or motion sensitive input device will be implemented to act like PC and do every thing what current PCs do.

Photoshop app, 3ds Max app may be Blender app and so on.

So the small size screen and the lack of input devices wouldn't stop tablets from taking over PCs.

Small is beautiful and people seem like the idea.

Compare 80s Motorola mobile phone with today's. smaller.
Compare the old CRT monitors with today's LCD monitors, again smaller.
Compare barely portable notebooks with McBook air.. smaller.

I don't mind x86 machines are bulky.

But I do mind the death of x86 and Puppylinux consequently.

Technically, I know nothing about x86 and ARM. so I scream to get some attention of people who may be able to come up with ARM Puppylinux.

Getting on ARM or other popular new mobile CPU is more imperative than experimenting on x86 64bit or other less illuminated CPUs.

Lets not talk about PC would survive or not.

Lets talk about how to make possible Puppy on ARM or other mobile CPU.

I am not saying x86 Puppy sould be stopped. I am saying considering Puppy on ARM is needed at least for some of US.

I am kind of tired of telling people what's coming soon to their computing life soon.

Like my very own wife who was too lazy to lift a finger to call real estate agents to push them to sell my only estate. I was thinking the house prices would go down soon even here in China so I told her a few times because I was busy doing somethingelse.

Now the stock crashed. Thanks, Obama... I worry how I am gonna sell my house. Nobody listens. including ma' wife. Thank you, honey.

And thank you, Puppy people, for not listening.

ARM is coming armed to teeth with death sentence. I told you.
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Bligh

Joined: 08 Jan 2006
Posts: 484
Location: California

PostPosted: Tue 23 Aug 2011, 04:15    Post subject:  

Older populations are not about to try to type on a tiny screen or try to see it. Some of us still think phones are for talking.
Cheers
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Tue 23 Aug 2011, 05:01    Post subject:  

Quote:

And thank you, Puppy people, for not listening.


How do you know that "Puppy people" don't listen?
What you could say is that the responses don't live up to your expectations.

I am disappointed too but try to be realistic about it.

I trust it is a kind of balance between what is possible and what is fun enough to be worthy the effort needed to get a workable result.

If putting Puppy on ARM is so much work that it is not fun in the end then none will do it unless them are payed enough to think the money we pay them get will buy them some fun time consuming experiences like travel or owning cars whatever.

I think one reason you have too high expectations is that like me you do know too little about coding. I try to find the relevant text from you.

Here you say it
Quote:
Technically, I know nothing about x86 and ARM. so I scream to get some attention of people who may be able to come up with ARM Puppylinux.


Maybe you do know more than me about such things as x86 and ARN CPUs. But the little I know tells me it is incredibly much work to do what you expect. it is not something easy at all and I doubt that it is fun doing it if one are totally alone doing it.

But if say a team that liked each other cooperated to do it them after some years of hard work 24/7 them maybe would be able to have a ball coding for Puppy on ARM but I doubt there is such many coders around that long for to learn ARM.

And one problem is that ARM change all the time. Them come out with new such CPUs and them are slightly different so when them have success doing a Puppy then it is three years too old for the available hardware.

That is my wild guess of why it is not done.

And to conclude. To get people to listen is almost as impossible to learn to code for ARM. It needs talent and hard work and I have none of it.

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puppyiso


Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Posts: 595

PostPosted: Tue 23 Aug 2011, 11:02    Post subject:  

Bligh, there are bluetooth keyboard which people can type in for ipad and Android mc. For android, wired keyboard is possible.

And nooby, I admit I went overboard saying nobody listens. And I agree with you the difficulty of learning ARM instruction sts and its architecture.

I said that knowing some people here showed amazing ability coming up with 64bits, PPC etc.

Maybe the whole thing is just my wishful thinking.. I hope it's not gonna end up as a pipe dream.

If someone actually takes time to look at the possibility and try making ARM based Puppy, I would be happy that I wrote this post, whether the trying is successful or not.

It certainly worth trying.

For your information, there are tablets that can run both android and windows(from newd) and I can go right now and buy a tablet I can install Puppy. That runs windows XP. The only problem is it costs 4500 yuan(USD $703). I just don't want to spend that much.

I would like to spend $120 on ARM based tablet and install Puppy on it.

Laughing
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Tue 23 Aug 2011, 14:39    Post subject:  

Thanks sometimes I wonder if it is not more easy to go the other way.

It is not only us two that want puppy on ARM. At least two or three more users here that made that very known through starting threads about it.

What if all of us joined the forums that do those "rooting of surfpads and smart phones" and what if we in a friendly way tried to interest them into making something like "Puppy" with the tools them already know?

Does it really have to be totally compatible? Not every version of Puppy are compatible with each other.

Now I know too little what that "rooting" really refers to.

Others have pointed out that I know too little. But I wonder if not people who are into doing the following could be easier to persuade?

HP bought WebOS and such and made the Touch Pad. Now them sell it for a fraction of the original price due to them giving up on competing on the market.

So people talk about Androidifying the WebOS. Maybe such people know enough of coding to make something similar to what we long for?

http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20110822&mode=67#qa

Quote:
With webOS you may have an easier time getting GNU/Linux software to run. Though I haven't tried it myself there are tutorials floating around out there on how to run Debian packages on your webOS device and access the command line. It won't be as straightforward as simply pointing your phone to the Debian repositories, but you may be able to get some of your favourite apps installed on your webOS device.


Him link to these two url
http://www.techhackz.com/2010/04/running-linux-applications-on-webos.html
http://forums.precentral.net/webos-development/290893-command-line-linux-webos-phone.html

That is not a Puppy but it is on the way? Now sadly the HP TouchPads most likely are already sold out.

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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4238
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Tue 23 Aug 2011, 16:13    Post subject:  

I made an attempt to show the direction the vendors are going and some idea of the technology changes that they are steering us to. The buffalo/wilderbeast herds (people) are already off and stampeding.

Are you aware of how many older adults are on iPhones or Androids now?

But you are adamant about pushing Puppy onto a low-powered CPUs while much of the community is looking at adapting Puppy to new and different application arena....like Music production, or USB challenges, LAN entertainment, tele-distant communications, multi-CPU clustering, VM management, etc. Its really not merely about the CPU as it is the interesting and creative ways of delivering usable application to the current community from the base Puppy Linux. Remember, its only been 2 years that we got 64bit started on a CPU thats been available since 2005.

Maybe an Intel ATOM would be more a little closer to your price ranges. It and SEMPRO are least expensve until an ARM future arrives for you. Also, I really like some Puppy distros and others I don't like as much. But, there are other OS distributions that do give you a keyboard experience on a tablet if that's what you desire.

Further, the title of this thread. Its kind of misleading for it took me until here, today, to see the real direction you are heading. So I think my expressions were consistent with the title, but not with your concerns.

Finally, you're in China and angry at the Americans??? I don't mean to further upsetting you but, I do understand, like you, not having the current skillset to develop does leave us to "appeal" to our helpful brethrens for guidance and assistance. Believe me, there are some very busy and very talented people working at many levels, here, in the forum.

I mean no disrespect.

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puppyiso


Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Posts: 595

PostPosted: Wed 24 Aug 2011, 22:24    Post subject:  

Hello, gcmartin

I have read your opinion this morning. I accept most of things you said but there are a few things to streghten out.

Quote:
Maybe an Intel ATOM would be more a little closer to your price ranges.


ATOM based notebooks are also disappearing. People need either more powerful notebooks (willing to pay the price) or more portable Tablets.

I posted my opinion after looking at the market in general. PCs are increadibly shrinking and iPad seems to be the sign of the future.

Android based devices are literally everywhere. AND CHEAP!!!! iPad's Aseries chip is not cheap, not available.

iPad cannot dominate the market because of Android equipped devices.
So are smartphones.(now nearly half and half market share)

Right now we cannot ignore the presence of ARM.


Quote:
Further, the title of this thread. Its kind of misleading for it took me until here, today, to see the real direction you are heading. So I think my expressions were consistent with the title, but not with your concerns


The title is not misleading. If intel based x86 fade away too thin, where are we gonna find fresh, powerful computers to run puppy on it?

That's why I concerned the very future of our, at least my, puppy.

Looking for used PC and limit the power of computers to old PCs would look miserable. Staying with x86 is like holding onto sinking Titanic.

I haven't seen any awareness nor any effort to play it safe. There is a possibility that good ol' x86 might be gone. It's pure businees decision.
x85 has been with us quite a long time. It's time to go.

I think ARM or any other would replace the whole computing scene.
We should have Puppy ready for it.

It's like a rumor of war. Better to be prepared. If the Polish jew in the movie the pianist had ran away when he first heard the news, he and his family wouldn't have had such terrible experience.

Whatever happens, I would remember the reading and writing in this forum a great pleasure meeting many helping, agreeing and disagreeing people for the last several years. Wink

Quote:
Finally, you're in China and angry at the Americans???


To tell you the truth, I lived in New York for a long long time and went to 26 Federal Plaza for immigration matter.

I love the USA and miss those days. I live in China because it is certainly cheaper to live here. I met horrible Chinese and I don't like them so much.
Yet, there are good folks here so I don't hate them either. They are people I keep distant with.

I certainly not a Chinese. I wouldn't and I can't be angry with the US.
My ex wife is 100% American. The NRA thing is a joke and I am a member. Laughing I owned so many guns that FBI visited me several times.
I, deep inside, am American. I gave up to be a citizen there but the US is the place I would be living when I really retire.

So you can be sure that I have never been angry with the US.
(I don't always agree with politics, though but any one can have his own opinion)

I never meant to argue with anyone. I just wote this to suggest my opinion in this "suggestion" section.

And now, my friend nooby,

I appreciate that you've been supportive constantly.

I am thinking a possibility of having VMware app or something like that.
Puppy can be emulated on other OS using VMware, etc.

Right now, Photoshop is emulated via internet on Chromebooks.

As CPU get more power to run 2 OS at the same time, this might solve all the headache, I think.

What do you think about that?
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8-bit


Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 3365
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Wed 24 Aug 2011, 23:00    Post subject:  

It is my reasoning that the PC will not die as without it, making programs/apps or complete OSes that one of those do it all phones or tablets can use would be a bit hard.
Can you see trying to write a program on an android phone or an OS on a tablet PC.

Maybe. But if you want to market a program or OS later, using a web based application to do it is not very secure.
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amigo

Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 2238

PostPosted: Thu 25 Aug 2011, 04:22    Post subject:  

The bottleneck is in the user interface -the analog-to-digital translation. Until we get really, really, I mean *really* smart software which can 100% accurately translate what we *say* to the computer, we will still need things like keyboards and mice. Otherwise there is no completely dependable way to communicate detailed info to the OS. Just try typing a 10-page essay on a touch screen or with a stylus to see what I mean. Writing programming code is even harder because it is so cryptic -you'd wind up having to spell eveyrthing out letter-by-letter (and special keys even worse).

But, that doesn't mean I totally disagree with puppyiso. Already, there are more ARM CPU's sold than anything else. And just like android is opening the 'linux door' to many, many users, ARM CPU's are opening the door to non-x86 platforms.

While it is certainly possible to produce an ARM 'port' of Puppy, there really is little point. puppy is aimed at certain usage scenarios which rarely fit the sort of ARM hardware which exists. For example, name me even one ARM device which comes standard with a CD/DVD drive.

Or say you want to really install puppy to the devices persistent storage device. Well, you need to run puppy to install puppy -except you can install puppy from Windows and you could use an already-prepared linux, perhaps, to install it.

So, maybe it's not that part of puppy that you are really thinking of. Maybe you mean the 'run as root' part. Maybe you mean the GUI interface -the 'desktop'. Maybe you mean not having to save anything.

Think hard about exactly how you and puppy communicate. What would your experience be like if you were blind, or couldn't read. How about if you were paralized, but could speek? Close your eyes for the next minute and see how well you communicate with your OS and the internet.

Typical desktop systems have 2 or 3 input devices, and only 1 or 2 relevant output devices. A typical device with an embedded OS might have only one of each. Either way, your OS has to be able to run on the CPU and be able to use the available I/O devices.

For devices with an embedded OS, that usually means having to install your OS onto the device as an 'image' which has to be 'flashed' or 'burned' onto a raw storage medium. Of course, most netbooks and some pads, I guess, will willingly boot from a USB device, so it is much easier to install.

Now, assuming we've gotten our OS running and/or installed. What kind of I/O and UI devices are available? And what should your OS offer within the limits of that? We've been complacent with PC's about having *lots* of sockets, ports, wires and hardware versatility. Most portable devices are much more limited in what they offer -the little 'OS on a USB plug' (gumsticks?) where the size of the one ethernet connection to the device is bigger than whole rest of the device.

So finally, we get to what? A little mini-desktop, on a touch screen, a virutal keyboard and what else? And the screen -exactly what do we put on there? What actions to offer to the user -even with a system which shows menus you can only *legibly* offer a few options per page/submenu. Imagine you are there, as the user. What are you gonna want to do?

What about persistence? What would some screenshots of it look like?
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Thu 25 Aug 2011, 06:14    Post subject:  

puppyiso thanks for kind thoughts and the words that expressed these.

I sure want to be supportive but I am not a good thinker and a poor reader of texts and poor at structuring what I read.

Now to the questions.

1. Input.
Many of the even the cheaper versions now allow for USB connection that act as "Host" so them can have a USB box outside that allow you to connect not only a USB Mouse and USB Keyboard but also a USB CD/DVD or External HDD as I get it.

And the more expensive "pads" does have HDMI so you can have big screen as you want for us with old eyes needing more than 10" screens.

Now the quality of the most cheap "pads" are not that good but even a few of the most cheap have this ability to use USB keyboard and mouse.

But sadly the HDMI port is only on the more expensive ones.

2. How to transfer the puppy iso?


Well even Windows or Android Smart Phones seems to allow that one use MicroSD card to start up for to flash the "BIOS" chips? And you can restore it after experimenting.

A neighbor had bought a smartphone with Windows on it for his work.

So he wanted to separate work things from private things so he joined a forum for "rooting" and there found software that allowed him to start up Android from the SDmicrocard. So when he goes to work he start up the Windows and then when going home after work he start up android from the card and he has access to private things.

Then he heard of Apple had a mark II of their "phone" so he sold the Samsung? and now owns the "Phone Mark II" but he has also Jailed that one and can boot up Android if he wants to.

3. So in same way that them do these tricks someone good at programming would be able to let these SDMicro cards boot up Debian for ARM or Ubuntu for ARM or Puppy for ARM whatever and have access to mouse and keyboard and DVD and External HDD too if one really wanted to.

Maybe not on the most cheap versions but maybe them catch up in a few years?

But the latest I read in "News" was that Chinese workers are fed up with low paid work so them ask for more money naturally and the prices will go up unless them go over to Robot production and these have to be bought and paid for so we could be in a "limbo" at the moment not knowing where the "market" will go.

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borgbucolic


Joined: 20 Aug 2011
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Location: Washington State, USA

PostPosted: Thu 25 Aug 2011, 23:40    Post subject: What it would take
Subject description: Building Puppy for ARM
 

I got to thinking about the process of how to build a Puppy for the ARM powered devices.

First off, as I understand it, current Puppies are build using a build system and previously existing Linux distribution. I am guessing that there only a few of those supporting ARM. and these are currently "Linux like". I also understand that not all the source code is available either. In an ideal case, this would require some serious modification to the build system just for the undertaking.

The current desktop environment (software wise and setup wise) is unlikely to work with such reduced screen pixels and size. Another desktop configuration would have to be devised and fixed to support the specific hardware like cellular radio transceivers and such.

Software applications and the package manager would have to be reworked to match the dramatic change in the interface. For instance, Firefox couldn't work "as is", nor could you just download it and just layer it into the existing file system (which could also be way different).

You could end up making a 'one off' of Puppy specific to one device which could be replaced with a new model in a matter of months. Making an ARMed Puppy is not impossible, but I doubt it would resemble the Puppy you are familiar with.

The last part, and the most important part, is the developer would need two really big feet in both ARM based equipment (in which the information is not all that open) and Puppy Linux which in a breed by itself, so to speak.

Umm, I'm not sure where I'm going with this. Let me just say, you would really need to be determined, if you wanted to do this.
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