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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Misc
A good read for anti- or apathetic PLUG people
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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Fri 15 Jul 2011, 06:29    Post subject:  A good read for anti- or apathetic PLUG people
Subject description: Be NOT afraid, I say
 

The power that forum users have exercised over a fear of 'power-crazy Users' trying to actually DO something for all our benefits, has resulted in an on-off reaction By John M to the concept of PLUG proposed by WhoDo

At the moment, [now 15th July 2011] it's on again, but without quite a lot of the impetus, energy, and input from people who once thought it doable

Everyone knows, or should do, that there are problems with information location and retrieval, particularly when someone has a problem, or a new Puppy or derivative is announced

In the process of testing not all problems get sorted, so there are updates/patches and dotpets posted
Its a big forum - things get swallowed by the new, and soon lost.
Things posted just a month ago are way down the list of posts

So, do we really need to sort it out, IMHO, or are we [some of us users....no names] going to stay struggling, and sometimes complaining about it, or offering destabilising alternate ideas?

A suggestion: Have a read! my recommendation - The Starfish and the Spider

get a copy here or at a good bookshop

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1591841836

After a few people get the idea that we work best by working together, instead of against each other, maybe we'll move on....

Away from the power of inaction, or blocking good energy with fear about what might happen

.........and towards what the Puppy philosophy is - Small, simple and elegant............Isn't it time we stopped complicating it, especially by NOT sorting out the forum, and a USERS group to assist in that process?

Please post comment, here

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=69437

......and see what you can do to help, thanks

Apathy and negativity need to GO

Aitch Smile
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playdayz


Joined: 25 Apr 2008
Posts: 3788

PostPosted: Fri 15 Jul 2011, 11:01    Post subject:  

Hi Aitch, I am not at all sure of the background of PLUG, but i certainly believe it is a good thing to involve the Puppy community in development. They have been involved big time in all of the Lucid releases. I just noticed that the thread for Lucid 5.2.6 has 36 pages in 10 days. That represents a high level of community involvement IMHO. Pemasu's experiments in the Ice Cold Puppies have had a tremendous contribution, stu90 has written some great new utilities, radky's PupControl is now featured. Bigpup is everywhere as he has been for Lucid 5.2.5. Iguleder has been huge. James C and Dave S have been steady as always. I know I am leaving someone out so I may come back and edit. Oh yes, rerwin is tweaking and improving hardware detection and config--it is great to have him. Jades, jpeps, and PaulBx1 are keeping me honest and 8-bit is breaking things Wink I would say that the morale of the forum is quite high.

Really, I don't know how we could have any much more community involvement. We are about done but this is quite a few people who are used to working together and making contributions to the Puppies under development. It has always been an open door. It does seem there must be someone to make the final decisions--and people do not expect every single one of their ideas to be included. Maybe it is good that the Coordinator of Lucid Puppy is *not* one of the most talented developers. But 01micko *is* one of the most talented developers and he worked on Lucid--which wouldn't exist without him.
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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Fri 15 Jul 2011, 14:25    Post subject:  

Hya playdayz

looking good as usual

I'm only too aware of the interest generated in the development threads you've mentioned, and more power to your collective elbows, but consider ttuuxxx's 214X thread, now at 296 pages.....find xyz....

Had you sat trying to sort noobies' problems on something you aren't familar with, or has been posted some time ago, and the developer has moved on......then where do you find the all important info.......it's on the forum, .....somewhere, ..........but even well-minded search doesn't locate it...........but.you remember reading about it.......

This is a far more common scenario, of someone looking for a driver, wanting to know if their PC can run xyz piece of software, or why they get an error message about glibc, or how they compile something as yet unused .....etc....

The point of PLUG is not to undermine the support we already have, it's to augment it, for the people who presently leave because no-one answered their post, either at all, or in language they understood, or in time, or whatever.....many reasons exist.....which PLUG is intended to improve upon

Even in the lively development threads such as you indicate there are always noob type characters whose question can be a disturbance and cause others to post regrettable comments.....
If there was a database based on the answers already in the forum, many problems could be addressed without personality clashes continually rearing their heads......you must have seen or heard the 'noise'?

¿Comprende?

Keep on, in your own way, you are much appreciated Very Happy

ALL devs are!......we [a few at least are interested] are just trying to add to what you do, for everyone's benefit, OK?

[Lost] Information is a lost opportunity and key to success

I firmly believe, if we can get this PLUG set up as John M has indicated he would, things will improve and many who frequent your threads will be wanting to share on a structured PLUG, the ISO's fixes and ideas you, Mick, and the others work on for us all to play with and test, and occasionally break! Wink

It is said, "Build a bridge and people will use it"

I sincerely hope puppy users will see the evolving PLUG as that bridge Very Happy

Aitch Smile
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Bert


Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Posts: 927

PostPosted: Fri 15 Jul 2011, 18:28    Post subject:  

Hi Aitch,

I had made a vow not to interfere with the PLUG subject ever again...but the way you formulated things just forced me to break that vow.. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
Apathy and negativity need to GO

You, the bridge-builder, are saying this? People not (yet) convinced of the necessity of the PLUG are either being apathetic or negative?? That's not a very good start of communications..No one in these discussions can be accused of either being apathetic or negative! if you think otherwise, just show us one example of apathy or negativity.. All I see in the reactions so far, is people who really care about Puppy Linux and people grateful for what we have and not very willing to give up this spontaneously growing and flourishing forum.

You recommend us, who don't yet understand your higher goals, to read a book on organization??
I can give you at least ten book titles in same direction and it would only add to the confusion. Nothing is more decentralized than the existing Puppy Forum. And yes,there is leadership and authority here. It is accepted, because talent and hard work are respected by all involved. This already is WhoDo's meritocracy. (Or Doocracy as he calls it, but I don't know how to spell that word)



Quote:
Had you sat trying to sort noobies' problems on something you aren't familar with, or has been posted some time ago, and the developer has moved on......then where do you find the all important info.......it's on the forum, .....somewhere, ..........but even well-minded search doesn't locate it...........but.you remember reading about it.......


Puppy is a moving target. Lots of things are in constant development and I like that. What is exciting is that many people now discover the greatness build into Puppy, despite the seemingly chaotic way it is "managed" as a distro.
Sure, I too have often been frustrated because of Puppy's 'quirkiness', but I've always found friendly help and advice when I needed it.
The "wellminded" search is not the best search engine to recommend.
There is this advanced google search, that will not be easily beaten by any database.

I'm afraid you have not understood what Playdayz was saying. IMHO, his message is: let's concentrate on what we are accomplishing together, not on what we could if and if and if...

I am also starting to get fed up with the generic use of the word "noise".
As if we all agree there's a well defined sort of posts that are "noise". Noobies asking questions that are important for them, it that your "noise"?
Or people stubbornly trying to reinvent the wheel, because that's how they want to share?
Condemning genuine posts, written by honest guys, as noise is an act of arrogance.

If I understood well, WhoDo's goal was to create a better way to communicate between the Puppy community and the Puppy Devs, given the fact that it has become nearly impossible for Devs to keep up with all that's happening in the forum.
That in itself is I think a very good idea.
But the resulting PLUG proposals so far have not in any way helped in that direction. Other ideas were added -information-documentation-. Those are also important, but very big and never ending and , in a way, hopeless projects, given the nature of Puppy Linux. That's why I think WhoDo warned not to try to eat the whole elephant at once.

Looking back at all the weeks we had PLUG discussions here, it could also be argued these were "noise", compared to the real and exciting Puppy community projects and developments that are going on and are what is really happening in PuppyLand.

Aitch, I'm writing this with the best of intentions. Not to attack you or anyone else. I admire your combativeness..
Let's hope something good will arise out of this.

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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4765
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Sat 16 Jul 2011, 02:47    Post subject: open door  

playdayz wrote:
Really, I don't know how we could have any much more community involvement. We are about done but this is quite a few people who are used to working together and making contributions to the Puppies under development. It has always been an open door..

(A very encouraging quote from the selfless coordinator of Lucid Puppy.) Thanks for posting, playdayz. Smile

Speaking of organization, look at this "Vietnam Crazy Traffic"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebkogYErN3Y

It works, doesn't it? Laughing

That's chaos working. But there is actually a simple unspoken rule that everyone is following: try to get through (the intersection) but don't hurry nor run anyone over.

Here in the forum we are doing just that, following a simple rule: try to follow development and convey your problem or idea as clearly and patiently as you can.

EDIT: What's the bottom line about PLUG for me? My view is that PLUG can be done via the documentation section of the forum. And please lock this thread or change your title - there's nothing to gain from using labels "anti-" and "apathetic".

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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
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Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Sat 16 Jul 2011, 06:45    Post subject:  

Hi Bert

Quote:
Quote:
Apathy and negativity need to GO

You, the bridge-builder, are saying this?


Yes I am, but it isn't addressed to anyone, though perhaps I should have, as the intended target for that comment is actually John M's nominee admins - and if they can't handle a bit of ribbing then they'll never cope with the forum proper!

I hope that deals with your further comment in that paragraph

Yes, I DO support WhoDo's vision of a Do-ocracy, as without those do-ers there would be no puppy development

Trust me when I say, I know about searching........I am a natural born ferret and my findings of unfound info are scattered all over this forum, as well as my Search thread for everyone's uses - with far more solutions available

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=29754

Whilst you may be afraid I have misunderstood playdayz....it is you expressing fear, which I address in the title subject description
I both understand, and appreciate playdayz efforts, as stated, and you misunderstand me - I hope playdayz doesn't! Wink
As I said also, the purpose of PLUG is not to undermine the support we already have, it's to augment it........

Further, I think you misunderstand use of 'noise', else somehow deny its existence - In all honesty, I find it surprising that 'users' of the forum can react to it, creating diverting comment, or even anger, yet not recognise what they are reacting to by a generic label
Noise is a distraction, plain and simple
- and no, [I'm surprised you even think it!] - I do not think noobie questions are noise, that would be an insult, and I, for one, respond to as many noob posts as I can - check my posts

Bert wrote:
Condemning genuine posts, written by honest guys, as noise is an act of arrogance.


Then don't do it.......I haven't, another surprise.....


Quote:
But the resulting PLUG proposals so far have not in any way helped in that direction


I must disagree.....Oh, but they have, and are the only proposals 'in that direction'........it is the people who have attacked and derailed and those who've reacted badly, defending their efforts who may not have helped, and those who have done nothing.....waiting in the wings, maybe hopeful that the dust will settle, and we move on
I defend vigorously, but I hope not badly - I always cover points as here, with respect to the poster

OK, I'm the one with my head above the parapet this time, not Shariebeth, who was attacked mercilessly. I hope my style is as vigorous, but not seen as power crazy....I'm a Do-oer not an ego-tripper [not that Shariebeth was, but some of the attackers, ....questionable]

My philosophy also is you can't make bridges without cutting down a few trees, but also making good use of dead wood, but sifting out the rotten bits that'll let you down

Quote:
Aitch, I'm writing this with the best of intentions. Not to attack you or anyone else. I admire your combativeness..
Let's hope something good will arise out of this.


Appreciated an understood, Bert - I hope so to Very Happy

raffy,

To cite a video about crazy traffic as an example of chaos working, is to deny the damage done, or people injured or killed in its manifestation. I have traveled the world, and driven in that sort of chaos system, and it's still not my preferred way of getting somewhere

I KNOW that you and several others want something else for PLUG, but as I've said previously, 'what's that got to do with the proposal on the table'

You were stated by John M as a nominee admin, upon whose decision of agreement with other nominee admins, (myself included) for a forum structure proposal and there have been no others apart from mine since - both I and John are waiting

Come on you other nominee admins, this is intended to include you!

May I respectfully suggest, if you don't want that role in the forum, you make your position known, so we can propose new admins for John's approval?
If you want to DO a PLUG section in the WIKI, don't let me stop you, but it is not what I am dealing with

Yes, it IS a provocative title, but if THIS thread get's locked as you suggest then you are effectively signing PLUG's forum debut death warrant, as you will have succeeded in killing the last remaining enthusiasm for actually DOING something........
I'm trying not to be drawn into arguments, but vigorously defending, on behalf of those who've already tried and been made scapegoats, and those who maybe don't have access, or time, confidence, or language skills, but who, nonetheless, are as totally frustrated as some people, good or bad, who have left or been banned for expressing a wish to get things changed, for the better

Someone needs to speak for those USERS, and I suggest a vigorous USERS group - in the forum, is the best place!

Quote:
I commend this motion to the House and beg the opposition to support it, in everyone's interest


My apologies if any dead wood is offended at my suggested use Wink
Do you like the chaotic rainbow effects? Laughing

Aitch Smile
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JaDy

Joined: 04 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sat 16 Jul 2011, 08:31    Post subject:  

I scan the forum daily, looking for subjects of my interest. Have read everything (perhaps) about PLUG. But I'm lost. What is PLUG? A simple definition, please?
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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Sat 16 Jul 2011, 09:16    Post subject:  

Hello again Jady

A simple definition : Puppy Linux Users Group

Here is WhoDo's original proposal

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=68265

and this the current thread

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=69437


Aitch Smile
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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 4441
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Sat 16 Jul 2011, 10:47    Post subject:  

I'm afraid that I'm little better than a passenger at this point, Aitch. I did state at the outset, when proposing the idea of a PLUG, that I didn't really have time for any active role. I've been trying to support first shariebeth and lately you in your endeavours to get this thing going.

I will try to find some time to suggest a forum structure, too. Have you revisited shariebeth's original structure? It may be overly ambitious but it is a place to start, along with your own proposal. All it should take is a simple diagram of where the PLUG fits in the main structure and what branches it should have within its own area.

I had hoped that Beem and raffy would come on board, too. Raffy can be very helpful with the off-forum parts that are essential to admins quantifying and qualifying user requests. Beem has more than one language and that is useful in communicating with the NES parts of the forum. ttuuxxx is a busy guy, especially now he has extra family demands on his time and energy. Just because the nominated admins aren't all available that often doesn't imply apathy (and no, I don't mind the gentle ribbing but I also don't want a lack of response to get you disheartened about the project).

Aitch, we need a mind map to work out the appropriate paths and linkages. Free mind would do. Take ALL of the ideas, not just those from the other potential admins, and see if you can fit them into a map that will lead back to a single PLUG forum, so John has some idea of what we are trying to create. I'd do it for you but there just aren't enough hours in my day at the moment. Note that it is 1:00am as I am writing this and at my age that's waaayyyyyy past my bed time. Keep the faith, mate.

Cheers.

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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sat 16 Jul 2011, 11:35    Post subject: wiki  

Aitch wrote:
If you want to DO a PLUG section in the WIKI, don't let me stop you, but it is not what I am dealing with

Just a clarification - you were the one who brought that up, please see your earlier post:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=543942#543942

EDIT: Here again is my position (already stated above): "My view is that PLUG can be done via the documentation section of the forum."

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nitehawk


Joined: 13 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Sat 16 Jul 2011, 11:44    Post subject:  

I care about Puppy. I'm not so sure about PLUG....(as dominate personalities will .....well,....dominate.). (and don't mean such fine puppiers as Whodo,..and other devs,...). Certain Puppy users like to try to control the reigns. (I am just a mere Puppy user, myself,...but I don't go on long tangents about how things should be done.)....
LOL! And I don't mean you,...Aitch! (I'm referring to very "vocal' users who want Puppy to go in their little particular direction).
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Aitch


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PostPosted: Sat 16 Jul 2011, 14:59    Post subject:  

WhoDo

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll have a look at freemind

raffy

pm'd you

nitehawk

I'd be happy to see you on the PLUG threads once we get it sorted

I'm trying........and the ones you were worried about aren't involved at the moment.......I'm just trying to clear a way through the wreckage Wink

Aitch Smile
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alienjeff


Joined: 08 Jul 2006
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Location: Winsted, CT - USA

PostPosted: Sat 16 Jul 2011, 22:49    Post subject: Re: open door  

raffy wrote:
And please lock this thread or change your title - there's nothing to gain from using labels "anti-" and "apathetic".


Ahem. Talk about control...

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puppyluvr


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PostPosted: Sat 16 Jul 2011, 23:27    Post subject:  

Very Happy
I still believe a lot of the issues could be solved through the Puppy Linux Documentation Project, my membership to which has been "pending" for a few years now... Mad

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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Sat 16 Jul 2011, 23:42    Post subject:  

Quote:
I still believe a lot of the issues could be solved through the Puppy Linux Documentation Project........


Well said that man

Thanks Jay, a useful and positive suggestion Very Happy

Aitch Smile
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