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Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 2780
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue 12 Jul 2011, 16:48    Post_subject:  

Aitch wrote:

The thread to collate should be PLUG2 for now - that was its intention


Hopefully it will be made a sub thread in the new PLUG Section, and re-named

It appears that the thread is currently "writable"...

When in use, this thread should probably appear as "locked" to all but the 2,3,4 "admin"-volunteers, who will maintain, edit and add to the list (and probably should have only a very few messages, just updating the info in the post/thread to show the current state). If that thread accumulates dozens or hundreds of posts and followups, it will become largely useless.

If PLUG is a subsection, that particular thread should probably be "sticky" at the top (i.e. "read here first, and see if your bug/suggestion/wish list item is already noted").

I could envision the "bug table" (not to be confused with the "Bugman table" Wink ), having something along the lines of "new/ongoing", "in process" (of being solved), "solved" as responses to those conditions.

Also, since there are numerous versions of Puppy... How does one keep track of which version this table/list applies to? Or does it always apply to the "latest"?

There are Devs (hi ttuuxxx) still working on 2.14. I believe that some are still using 3.x, and several on 4.x, and many on 5.x, including the beta to become 6.x. A book-keeping nightmare!... Shocked

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PostPosted: Tue 12 Jul 2011, 17:35    Post_subject: charter and road-map  

It is m opinion, that the first thing PLUG needs is a charter and a road-map.
This will have the advantage of gaining credit for PLUG.
Up to now, I feel there is a cacophony going into all kind of directions.
But there is no structural base.

I hope the PLUG founders will put their heads together and come soon with such a charter/road-map.

It is also my opinion, as said before, that the first goal of PLUG should be to provide the community with an easy to access streamlined information for newbees, helpers and regulars. to help them to find solutions, advice and puppy's/derivatives where to download and have descriptions.

A huge task indeed.

Info is scattered now in the forum/wikki, wikka and other sources maybe.
There should be a unique place to start off.

Once in place and maintained up to date, developers will see this and are probably more motivated to work with PLUG.

I hope to read soon charter/road-map.

Time savers:
Find packages in a snap and install using Puppy Package Manager (Menu).
Consult Wikka
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PostPosted: Tue 12 Jul 2011, 20:48    Post_subject:  

Aitch wrote:
Once we find out from John a bit more about what forum structure we'll be able to use, I'll post an update, until them, please can people stay calm, and not expect miracles.

You can expect whatever structure you ask for, unless you ask to change the rest of the forum.

However, I need you guys to have a clear idea of what you want, and agree between yourselves before hand.

So I would expect that someone drafts a proposal, gets the other PLUG admins to agree and then we move on from there.

John de Murga
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PostPosted: Tue 12 Jul 2011, 22:17    Post_subject:  

Thanks John

I'll kick it off!

SECTION HEADING: PLUG aka Puppy Linux Users Group
Suggested Location - the top of House Training, or, Top of Taking Puppy Out for a Walk - Also Suggest sticky as and where needed

Just a starter suggestion for Forum structure - see also BK's timeline....


.....as something like that for the whole of Puppy linux development could be done, as an overview/Intro page
- "What is Puppy Linux, and where does it come from?" - with a bit of narrative - thanks Barry Wink Very Happy

Opening statement from WhoDo's original, aims, targets, and purpose
- or I have drafted an Impress .ODF presentation, a bit rough, but a start

PLUG Section Guidelines - expected behaviour/unacceptable posts
Yes - there need to be basic agreements as free-for-all ISN'T working!

This is NOT an exhaustive or complete list, but just a hint at the scale of task we embark on - ideal for database, though sifting and inputing data will require many users putting in time and energy!
That is one of the tasks Users can embark on Smile

Sub Heading: Official Puppy/s
sub-sections for each
* Vintage - all pre 2.14 Puppy
* 2.14/2.14R/2.15CE/2.16/2.17/2.18/2.20?
* 3.00/3,01
* 4.12/4.12R/4.31/4.31R/4.6?
* 5.0-Lupu/Wary/Quirky5.1-Luci/5.2-Lucid/5.25/5.3
* 6.0?
* future

Sub Heading: Derivatives

list to be compiled...too many for me

Each puppy series section to have its own kernel version noted and Bugs/worked on+by whom/waiting to be picked up/solved/notes - a la git?

Highlights - urgent, if possible with phpBB?
- recurring theme problems, unresolved/keep recurring across versions
- Security alerts
- repeat calls for feature/driver inclusion/kernel system call change

Sub Heading Information: what and where to find it

It is hoped this section will be databased, with a simple alphabetic search/user tagged search term - whatever is possible
Items such as -
    ISO locations/repos/deadlinks/mirrors/temporary locations
    Users Information: How To's/Basic instruction/Manuals/Videos/Users tips + tweaks/ Updates/ User+other reviews!!
    Note: Much information is only dated in the forum - dates need adding to many below categories, linked to timeline, maybe?
    Community .org website/WIKI/Webdesktop/other Puppy sites
    Which Puppy is right for me?/reason for using your PC may help you decide which Puppy to use
    Puppy's own hardware compatibility list - what works/doesn't
    Solutions: published user threads, highlighting issues with versions with specific hardware, and fixes, including unresolved - over 9000 unanswered posts, though not all require responses - when did you last help someone?
    Languages/internationalisation - are you catered for/how are we doing?
    Softwares/Which version/derivative do they run on
    SFS's and how to use them/Mounting
    Save files
    Formatting and filesystems
    Networking/connecting to a network/router/the web/other PCs
    Windows converts 1st time guides
    Dual booting with Windows
    Installs - initial setup
    Bootloaders/Grub and Grub2/LILO/Grub4dos/Wakepup/PLOP/Netboot/others
    Find those files - the Puppy/linux file structure/Rox/Midnight Commander etc - finding and using files/mouse actions for copy pasting
    Other devices
    IRC/Chat/Skype etc
    Browsers/importing and saving favourites/Flash/Java/Email/Youtube
    Bash Scripts and scripting - what it is and how to use it
    Special purpose
    all else....questions arising

Sub-Section: Devs
Comment specifically for devs and from devs - possibly a locked thread, with permissions for devs

Sub-Section: PLUG2
User dev requests/informations/Bugs, Fixes, and Requests

Sub-Section: PUG
Puppyluvr's thread re-located, - 'for those users that don't want to feel structured'

Sub-Section: Admin feedback, where matters relating to requests for admin intervention/resultant actions can be posted - don't expect to much, but this is suggested as a move toward transparency and fairness, and for users and admins to exchange without spoiling the threads
Comment may be moved here without notice, but pointer left in thread
This is experimental!

Any additional sub-sections as required, on request to John M

Sub-Section: The vision...where to from here...Barry statement re: his future involvement/core developer group?
John Murga Statement on his support, the life expectancy of the forum/updates/fixes/database etc

Hidden Section: Moderator delete/modify/discuss threads

Suggestion: Donations buttons for Barry and John, if they are agreeable

Hopefully that should look quite tidy??

Please can we discuss sensibly, don't just tear holes in my effort, - compare with other offerings, or simply amend/modify/insert your ideas
Let me know if there are glaring omissions that will affect the structure

We need to find something that is -
A) Acceptable to our host
B) User friendly
C) Admin easy [as easy as]
D) update-able
E) Intuitively conveyable to other Admins
F) Does the job

OK, a starter - next?

Personal note: Sole comment as a result of recent events - I am sad that we seem to have lost the input, energy and enthusiasm of 2 users who worked quite hard at achieving the 1st PLUG, and who may have copped undue blame for those events - I hope for reconciliation/reconsideration
I would hope they can still come back as valued members of the team We have a huge task to do, and as of right now, there's just my bit of energy - help!

Aitch Smile
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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jul 2011, 04:08    Post_subject:  

Aitch wrote:
OK, a starter - next?

It's nice to see some enthusiasm, Aitch.

I have a suggestion, though. Let's not reinvent the wheel as it were. Much of what you asked for is already available in the existing wiki. If that also becomes the initial point of contact for newbies, then a host of problems are avoided.

As for categories on the forum, it might be best to organise by category first rather than Puppy/Puplet version. With so many versions of Puppy, each would need their own sub-threads for each problem category such as network drivers, video graphics, hardware issues, printing problems, etc. Instead create only those 4 or 5 main categories and have sub-categories for the main stream versions plus one for puplets. The PLUG cannot afford to take on support for every Puplet abandoned by its creator IMHO.

Just my $0.02c to keep the discussion happening. The proposed Admins need to get together with the suggestions from here and come up with a proposed structure that John can implement. Certainly we can ask for user feedback on anything we may have missed, but in the end decisions have to be made for all by the few and that is the unfortunate truth to organisation of any sort. The best we can hope for is pleasing most of the users most of the time, nothing more.

@Béèm - are you willing to join the PLUG Admin team as suggested by John? We could certainly use your connections with the Francophiles of Puppy.

Actions speak louder than words ... and they usually work when words don't!
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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jul 2011, 06:35    Post_subject:  

Aitch this part?

I am sad that we seem to have lost the input, energy and enthusiasm of 2 users who worked quite hard at achieving the 1st PLUG, and who may have copped undue blame for those events - I hope for reconciliation/reconsideration
I would hope they can still come back as valued members of the team We have a huge task to do, and as of right now, there's just my bit of energy - help!

Aitch Smile

Is that something you can be more explicit about.

Are you talking Puppyite and Jonyo?

I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though
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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jul 2011, 07:14    Post_subject:  

No, nooby........For information only, to remove doubt, I'll pm you
.........however that was a personal comment and an aside to this thread, thanks

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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jul 2011, 08:45    Post_subject:  

I wonder if you'd be better off using an existing section and subsections to use as examples so people can see what you mean.
It sounds like Aitch is suggesting a setup like Additional Software (PETs, n' stuff) which is located under Advanced Topics, and WhoDo suggesting something more like a whole new section equivilent to Advanced Topics with subforums equal to Additional Software, Cutting Edge, Hardware, etc.

Re where to put it: Either way it's going to be a big section so keep that in mind. I think that the Beginner's Help (Start Here) is perfect as the first thing one sees, at the top. Easy to find, logical, user intuitive. So PLUG shouldn't be first under House Training in my opinion.
How about the next section after that if the setup is like Aitch suggested, and between House Training and Advanced Topics if I am correct in understanding what WhoDo meant. If I'm wrong, ignore that then Wink

WhoDo has a good point about sorting by category rather than puplet. That way we spend less time tracking all of them down and more time to working on what's most popularly used working our way down to the lesser used/abandoned ones. Although I think space still should be reserved for the lesser used/abandoned ones as information rolls in. Which it will.
That said, I do think there should be an accounting somewhere of all of the derivatives and what they offer/do/who-they-are-good-for.

As to opening statements, visions, etc...I don't know if we want so much wordy distracting stuff to bog people people down trying to find what they want. The section is already going to be very large. I think we should keep it as streamlined and clean and to the point as possible.

Anything external should have one single jumping off page and everything else gotten to from that that. Everything with easy to find "back to home page" links and the like. All roads need to lead to home.

Looks good, also feel free to use or hack to bits the mission statement I suggested.. or not.

As to a roadmap, it's hard to lay out expected results and timeframes when it is a project depending on volunteers. I think up to this point it's been laid out as best as it can be. I think it's pretty clear what the long term goals are. Short term needs a forum structure and an external structure - database, and everybody pitches in that wants to. Not like there's a shortage of stuff to be done.

My 2 cents.
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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jul 2011, 09:23    Post_subject:  

Sharie, thanks

Yes, you read my suggestion correctly, like Additional Software (PETs, n' stuff)

Low screen real-estate, but easy to read/find headings

My reason for suggesting puppy sub-categories by series, was because I am thinking in terms of many noob posts I've dealt with, saying how hard it was to find what they wanted/needed
That seemed intuitive, to me, and with a view to database analysis of the forum database, with tags/keywords or such like - I'm NOT looking to create loads of work for everyone...surely doomed to fail? I hope the database will provide much of the sorting/sifting into whatever categories we need info for

Maybe WhoDo's idea of sorting by category is best suited to the wiki, but, I'm not sure about how we'd use the wiki for certain aspects of this....it'd be more difficult to keep a semblance of control, surely?
The wiki struggles as it is, and is being re-vamped - again

We will need a PLUG section in the wiki, which has been requested, though format is not decided yet

For the forum, I like the idea of a single jumping off page, and home button, but don't know if phpBB does that?
Sorry, I didn't reference your mission statement Embarassed

Remember this is a suggestion only, not cast in stone, and we need to reasonably quickly come to agreement, please admins!

Other suggestions/ideas welcome......but don't wait too long Wink

Aitch Smile
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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jul 2011, 09:33    Post_subject:  

I think you're both right.
Some research by problem: "wireless", "printer", "pidgin"
Some research by puplet in various manners: "Wary" "431" "official"

Of course don't forget the requisite search option: "HELP!!1111" Wink
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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jul 2011, 09:42    Post_subject:  

Also re: placement, remember, this is intended to be a Section....not a sub-section of Beginner's Help - Start here, .......though maybe if not at the top of that area, at the foot, below Bugs - submit bugs, would work, until further changes?

It shouldn't appear big to the Forum index page, only the database, but with a view to organising and gleening hidden data presently locked up to us as users - despite well-minded's best efforts

Check the 'Jump to - select a forum', button/icon low right on any page - maybe this could be the return home linker, and be relocated?

Aitch Smile
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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jul 2011, 11:02    Post_subject: wiki  

The only requirement to use the wiki is to be registered there (I handle registrations to deter spam). It is a wiki, so PLUG admins can control their pages (without first having to be wiki admin).

Has anyone not thought of googlecode? Any developer can download the latest version of "wish list".

Puppy user since Oct 2004. Want FreeOffice? Get the sfs (English only).
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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jul 2011, 12:03    Post_subject:  

I was thinking along the same line as to googlecode.
If one navigates to http://code.google.com/p/gtkdialog/ and clicks on "issues", there is a short description of the issue and it's status.
With each one there is a link that explains the issue more fully.
That type of setup for PLUG would work great.
It, as to reading and navigating is short and well thought out.

I am using thunor's gtkdialog section on googlecode as an example, and as you stated, it would be another way to have a list that a developer could access directly.
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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jul 2011, 12:36    Post_subject:  

There are already several Puppy projects on googlecode

Technosaurus set up 4.4 development........

Grumpy wolfe has mywolfe........

Chinese Puppy project.........

another Chinese Macis............

yet another krosspup......


thunor's gtkdialog........

plus another 2 pages of results

.........but if someone wants a task, be my guest, so long as you let us know Wink

Dingo has dokupuppylinux/dokuwiki format here, which looks good, as an example


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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jul 2011, 16:29    Post_subject:  

hi all

firstly a big thank you to john murga and raffy.

do people think we are not aiming to high in the first instance, It is an awfully big undertaking to cover all that is in aitch's ideas.

if we aim for something simple first to see how it works out, then any lessons learned can be taken forward into other areas.

puppyluvr's pug thread is already filling with peoples wish list's for puppy, so that can be used now.

what do puppy people/admins/whoever think about starting with just reporting bugs/problems just to establish that the model/structure will work, and be able to provide detailed information in an acceptable format for the devs?

in the words of aitch "whoosh"

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