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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Derivatives
Pussy: potentially a Puppy with a perfect package manager
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sickgut


Joined: 23 Mar 2010
Posts: 1157
Location: Tasmania, Australia in the mountains.

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 02:59    Post subject: re: CLAM01  

hi CLAM01

Pussy linux doesnt have a compressed filesystem it decompresses to HDD, it stays compressed. Also you can use save files on the USB version that are compressed, there is no decompression to the HDD. Like Puppy if you do a full install to HDD it decompressed it to the HDD and a 120MB .iso of Puppy installs to hundreds of MB onto the HDD, Pussy doesnt do this as it just runs it compressed, HDD, CDROM, USB, all the same.

Please actually download and run Pussy before you comment on what it is and how it works as you obviously have not used it or read the release notes as you seem to think it doesnt do frugal, isnt a save file on the HDD while you run a live cdrom or USB actually a frugal?

comparing pussy to pclinux is like comparing puppy lucid to ubuntu but im not going to bother answering claims from people who obviously have not used Pussy.

i freaking wish people would actually read the forum posts etc before commenting because i seem to have to say over and over and over again that Pussy isnt a Puppy, Pussy is something ive posted here that is the culmination of 2 years of work on package management for Puppy, after my apt-get package for puppy lucid worked but was not a 100% solution, i then set out to make a OS as close to puppy as i could possibly make it that actually does have 100% apt get working 100% of the time as it is a debian base that has had nothing done to break compatibility, but it is slimmed down and added many similar apps to puppy and made to work like it best i can, pussy is posted here because im looking for interest from developers who will help me with the final step of turning pussy into a puppy.

i am trying to turn Pussy INTO a Puppy, it isnt a Puppy right now. And please note you can run or dev on Pussy with or without the pussyxtra.squashfs file that contains the extra apps apps (results in to 207mb OS including the 67mb live system) or with or without the pussyos.squashfs file, without this file this results in a 67mb OS.

Last edited by sickgut on Thu 07 Jul 2011, 07:43; edited 1 time in total
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 03:29    Post subject:  

Sickgut you most likely know Debian way better than what I do Smile

Knoppix and even Ubuntu could boot in frugal install on NTFS HDD


Don't you have any clue on how to set up Pussy that way?

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nooby

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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 03:31    Post subject:  

A more formal remark.

Puppy Derivatives

Pussy is that really a puppy derivative?

Is it not a Debian such? So you should have placed it under

Truly off topic Smile

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sickgut


Joined: 23 Mar 2010
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Location: Tasmania, Australia in the mountains.

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 04:02    Post subject: re: nooby  

hi nooby,

I originally was making Pussy as a USB flashdisk based distro that would be distributed via .img files, or .iso that you can burn to cdrom that contains the .img that you can then use a script to get it to image the USB stick you like.

After stumbling on some knowledge about compressed save files and making my own squash based filesystems i found it all of a sudden worked on a live CDROM.

So this is how Pussy has been bred onto USB sticks and CDROMs but not HDD. The only way i know to do HDD is image the USB image to the HDD, that is the method im currently using and im now using a compressed save file in the /live dir of the HDD, this works fine immediately using the save-file option in the Catroll-Panel. This option works in the USB and HDD install but not on Live CDROM as its only in the /live dir of the live media that the live system looks for the compressed squashfs files and automount them inturn (alphabetical order) onto the main "/" filesystem. The next step for me is to try see if it will still work if there is a sysmlink in that dir of a squashfile but the file exists on a ext2 , 3 , 4 partition on the HDD. The non compressed best way for HDD save file is to image the USB stick to the hdd and use the rest of the space as a ext2. 3. or 4 partition named live-rw and it will treat the entire partition like a non compressed save file. You can still create compressed save files out of the noncompressed partition and ill have that as an option in the beta.

Im going to have to learn about how to make the usb image not use a fat32 partition and all about syslinux, grub or whatever booting method its gonna work for HDD install, but the OS will always be stored in one file as this is unwriteable as this is the strength of the live system as you cant possibly corrupt the main OS.

The issue with posting on the puppy derivatives forum is because this has to do with puppy the whole point of me making this OS is so that devs could fit the auto mounting and other puppy opnly apps onto it to MAKE it a Puppy. There isnt any place on these forums for OS that people want to be MADE into a puppy, and i believe this is not off topic. All i need is some dev help and input to fit some puppy things ontop of it to make a it a puppy then the entire puppy community and potential newbies will have a Puppy OS that has 100% apt-get debian repo support.
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sickgut


Joined: 23 Mar 2010
Posts: 1157
Location: Tasmania, Australia in the mountains.

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 04:04    Post subject: clarification  

now to clarify something (as i answer this about 5 times a day):

no this isnt dpup, no it isnt the same kinda packagemanagement as dpup or Lucid with the same set of problems, this isnt a puplet that has alot of debs fitted on top of it. There seems to be alot of people under the impression that Pussy just offers debian repo accessablilty with a crude system of installing the debs onto the OS, this is in correct, this is an OS that has 100% apt-get working debian repo access and compatibility and it works 100% of the time, 100% every time, the package management works perfectly. This OS was built on the smallest possible debian base that was then stripped then built on top of in such a way that doesnt break compatibility with debian and as such it installs debian stuff PERFECTLY and it has a script in the catroll panel that cleans up alot of the junky stuff you dont need after you install stuff, this will be improved on the beta, this way things arent bloated and are similar to size of puppy, much smaller infact if you compare it with a puppy full hdd install as pussy is compressed with squashfs4 and you can literally fit 700mb into 140mb file, same with the compressed save files you can run from USB and HDD, you can from CDROM but it requires a line at in the live.cfg file to be added with the path of the file save file you wanna load at boot and an edit in the save-file script in the catroll panel to drive onto a local hdd or media.
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 04:24    Post subject:  

Thanks that was very helpful and I was not as serious with that question as it could be read to be so I placed a friendly Smile there to show me smile and not where critical.

I know too little about how things works in Debian. I never learned the .img thing.

Hopefully you find some Dev here that can help you make a Puppy out of Pussy.

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Sylvander

Joined: 15 Dec 2008
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Location: West Lothian, Scotland, UK

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 05:15    Post subject:  

Would it be possible to include the ability to CHOOSE if/when to save the session back to the pupsave...
Either during the session and/or at shut-down/reboot?

I do this at the moment in Lupu-525. Very Happy

Tried booting the CD a few minutes back.
Wasn't impressed.
Low quality splash screen.
Slow to boot.
Got to a flashing underscore, nor sure what to do, entered the command startx on the off chance, and that seemed to work.
Then it wanted me to input a password, and I didn't know it.
Gave up and blanked the CD-RW disk. Sad
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sickgut


Joined: 23 Mar 2010
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Location: Tasmania, Australia in the mountains.

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 06:51    Post subject: re Sylvander pupsave thing  

There are 2 types f save files, non compressed and compressed.

Non compressed: either a file containing a ext2, 3, 4 filesystem names live-rw or a partition named live-rw. This is written to and read from in realtime, there is no choice in not saving to it or anything, any write you made it immediately and directly written to this file. You can see the contents of the save file and manipulate them in the /live/cow dir, here is where it is mounted, it is combined with the contents of /live/image during boot (/live/image contains the unchanging live media. This type of savefile/ savepartition works with all Pussys but is ONLY one that works with live CDROM. also the live-rw file can exist on any drive partition connected to your system if it is in the main dir of the partition and if your using a live-rw labeled partition instead of a file then this partition will be detected at boot up no matter where it is placed on the drives.

Compressed: This is not automatic, you must choose to click on the Catroll-Panel + save-file + save script and this will take the contents of /live/cow and makes a squashfs4 file containing the filesystem located there and saves it in the /live dir of the live media (this why it doesnt save to cdrom as cdrom isnt writeable) this is the command it executes:

mksquashfs /live/cow/ /live/savefile.squashfs

The reason it is saving the file in the /live dir of the live media is the fact that the debian-live base it uses loads every squashfs file in this dir in turn (alphabetically) and overlays them on the main "/" filesystem. This is how it loads the save file at boot and what the live system is doing is treating it the same as the compressed filesystem.squash , the pussos.squashfs etc and the save file becomes part of the live system. The save files contents will be viewable in the /live/image dir. You can add a script to save your system to the compressed save file at shutdown but as default in its present form the user must click the save script to save.

It is possible to run both compressed and noncompressed save files, and every so often create a save to a compressed save file via the Catroll-Panel script. the user would then clear out the live-rw noncompressed file or partition as it isnt needed anymore, it has all been added to the compressed save file in /live/savefile.squashfs and there are massive bonuses in space saving due to the compression 700mb fits into a 140mb save file sometimes depending on the type of data.

This is also a cool way to remaster your own Pussy viariant as all you have to do is rename the compressed savefile.squashfs to something alphabetically lower than the filesystem.squashfs, pussos.squashfs and pussyxtra.squashfs but is alphabetically higher than savefile.squashfs as this file should always be the last one to load. Then copy it to a Pussy .iso and burn it.

Please note that altho the usb image does have some free space on its partition it is only a 699mb partition with less than 200mb free space (full version that is the latest downloadable version that has the pussxtra.squashfs with all the extra apps) and you will need to use gparted or some other program to extend the first partition to something bigger if your wanting to have large compressed save files.

Im hoping this indepth explanation of the save file system answers your questions. Runing a USB version or HDD installed version while using a compessed save file from the Catroll-Panel is similar to a frugal pupsave that you have to manually tell to save.
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sickgut


Joined: 23 Mar 2010
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Location: Tasmania, Australia in the mountains.

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 11:14    Post subject:  

Sylvander wrote:
Would it be possible to include the ability to CHOOSE if/when to save the session back to the pupsave...
Either during the session and/or at shut-down/reboot?

I do this at the moment in Lupu-525. Very Happy

Tried booting the CD a few minutes back.
Wasn't impressed.
Low quality splash screen.
Slow to boot.
Got to a flashing underscore, nor sure what to do, entered the command startx on the off chance, and that seemed to work.
Then it wanted me to input a password, and I didn't know it.
Gave up and blanked the CD-RW disk. Sad


Did you use the copy to ram or the normal live boot? Yes the asthetic stuff isnt suposed to be bigh quality, its a raw base ready to be turned into a Puppy so i have deliberately left it all standard, im sorry but you should have atleast glanced at the release notes on the site as it states plain as day and ive all ready mentioned 2 times directly on this thread that the user and password is root and pussy

The Pussy can be ran with or without the pussyxtra.squashfs, without it the copy to ram speed is less than half

im sorry to keep repeating myself over and over on this thread but everyone seems to be asking the same questions over and over, please read the release notes and please try to actually download and use pussy before commenting on what or what Pussy is not, it will make the thread alot smaller

im sorry but if you dont read the documentation then its your own fault.
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Sylvander

Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 3447
Location: West Lothian, Scotland, UK

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 13:53    Post subject:  

1. "Did you use the copy to ram or the normal live boot?"
Copy to RAM.

2. "the asthetic stuff isnt suposed to be bigh quality, its a raw base ready to be turned into a Puppy so i have deliberately left it all standard"
OK.

3. "you should have atleast glanced at the release notes"
Actually I did, and made a couple of notes of key items.
Didn't write down the username and password; thought I'd remember those, then when I entered what I thought would work it didn't.
Didn't read ALL of the notes, they were so looong, and I don't have the patience or time.

4. "The Pussy can be ran with or without the pussyxtra.squashfs, without it the copy to ram speed is less than half "
I'm sure this is like 2+2 to you, but not to me.
Meaningless to me at this point.
I don't suppose it matters too much one way or the other, so I'll just have a 2nd go at this and see what happens.
Busy burning a 2nd copy of the CD right now.

5. "if you dont read the documentation then its your own fault"
OK, so it's a necessity to read the documentation prior to attempting to boot the CD.
Now that is something of an off-putter.
One of the advantages of the normal Puppy is that it "just works".
Which is what happened the 1st time I tried a Puppy.
I tried it, it "just worked", and I liked that.

6. I wonder if you should make a short and PROMINENT list the essentials needed [for a new user] to get a successful boot....
Rather than forcing the prospective user to wade through a rather large document.

7. New download completed...
Burning CD-RW...
Will read the release notes whilst waiting...
Text is rather tiny and therefore difficult for me to read...
Very off-putting...
Downloaded zipped save file...
Extracting the archive [live-rw file]...completed...
Using Xfe to "Move to..." its final home in the "Pussy" folder on a partition on the 2nd internal HDD [sdb2]...
[This will surely put off new/inexperienced users]
Burn now complete...
Whew! Reading these release notes is too much yet again...
I'm going to have a 2nd go at booting the CD.
I'll be back.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

8. I'm back...
Experienced some difficulty...
Got the flashing underscore...
Used the startx command, which took me forward...
Asked for password, gave it pussy, but that failed...
Now asked for meow login:, so gave it root...
Asked for password:, and typed in pussy, but nothing showed...
Took me a while to realize it was being input but not being displayed, so I hit <Enter>, and that worked.
Was presented with a command prompt where I entered startx again...
That took me to the desktop.
FINALLY!
Ran the ROX-filer background....[Icons appeared on desktop]
Clicked the "Network" icon, didn't see anything happen...
Tried to run web-browser, got window...
At 1st attempt tried to install, and got BLACK SCREEN!
At 2nd attempt on new boot, tried to run the other thingy [non-persistent], and again got BLACK SCREEN!
Am I doing something wrong? Confused
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sickgut


Joined: 23 Mar 2010
Posts: 1157
Location: Tasmania, Australia in the mountains.

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 15:04    Post subject:  

pussy is a raw platform to on which Im using to try to show developers how a debian base with apt-get ability can be roughly the same size as puppy and same speed and use same amount of ram, to convice them this is the way to go to solve puppy package management probs but grabbing something like what ive made here and adding the puppy stuff to it to make it a puppy. its a dev showcase.

Pussy in its current form is not:

Polished: other than the splash screen, no effort has been taken to improve asthetics as it would be pointless to add asthetic stuff only to have it removed when the Puppy themes are retro fitted.

Newbie friendly or intuitive to use: this is because Pussy is waiting for the menus and control panel etc and the automounting with icons on the desktop (pmount?) that Puppy has, it would take 3 times longer to develop an entire new system to accommodate these things that it has taken to make the entire OS.

Use exactly the same save file setup as Puppy: pussy is still using the debian-live way (non compressed live-rw save file or partition) and my personal way of creating a squashfs save file. As with the other issues listed here this is because Pussy is awaiting input from Puppy devs to fit Puppies was of doing things onto it.

Contain indepth documentation: as this is just a demo for developers, it presumes an advanced knowledge of Linux and maybe a little debian specifically to apreciate what Pussy stands for and how it works. Ultimately when Pussy is finnished and turned into a Puppy, it will appear to work in the same way as Puppy and most of the documentation will be the same as Puppy.

Please keep the above items in mind when using Pussy, it is not a finnished product, and if you keep in mind that the things it appears to be missing are deliberately done so as to make an obvious space to fit the Puppy things on to it, then its easier to imagine what this OS would be like once it has been Pupped up.

if pussy fails to grab the attention of puppy devs then pussy will become a disto that is separate from puppy, if this happends then the next release will be a finnished product and include all the missing things and the issues listed above will be addressed. If this happends then this will have nothing to do with puppy and its release will not be posted on these forums.

if pussy becomes a hit with the puppy dev community then hopefully pussy will simply become a puppy or its underlying way of doing things will become part of puppy. My first priority is to help the puppy community with its package management issue and Pussy will not evolve into its own OS if this attempt at showing how a base that is 100% debian compatible and can install everything in the debian repos can also be a base that is as fast, as small and do the same things as puppy is actually successful.
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sickgut


Joined: 23 Mar 2010
Posts: 1157
Location: Tasmania, Australia in the mountains.

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 15:32    Post subject:  

Quote:
8. I'm back...
Experienced some difficulty...
Got the flashing underscore...
Used the startx command, which took me forward...
Asked for password, gave it pussy, but that failed...
Now asked for meow login:, so gave it root...
Asked for password:, and typed in pussy, but nothing showed...
Took me a while to realize it was being input but not being displayed, so I hit <Enter>, and that worked.
Was presented with a command prompt where I entered startx again...
That took me to the desktop.
FINALLY!
Ran the ROX-filer background....[Icons appeared on desktop]
Clicked the "Network" icon, didn't see anything happen...
Tried to run web-browser, got window...
At 1st attempt tried to install, and got BLACK SCREEN!
At 2nd attempt on new boot, tried to run the other thingy [non-persistent], and again got BLACK SCREEN!
Am I doing something wrong? Confused


What model video card are you using? Do you get a verbose output while Pussy is loading? I think something isnt compatible with your system if things arent being displayed propperly. Do you get a colorfull "Pussy Operating System" ASCII graphic on the screen when you are prompted to login? If not there is something up with how p ussy is being displayed while booting into the console. I would really find your information on this very useful. What other things are displayed on the screen when you see this blinking cursor?

If the loading is still a issue then try the first boot option, not the copy to ram as it is generally more reliable. the live system may be detecting that you have enough ram for it to copy the filesystem.squashfs, the pussyos.squashfs and the pussyxtra.squashfs into ram, but maybe it doesnt have enough ram left over to run propperly.... its a long shot but hey its not gonna make it worse...

The network issue: after you click on the network icon, a networking widget/icon/app whatever appears on the bottom right hand corner near where the time and the cpu usage meter is displayed on the JWM taskbar. Click on this and you should have a window appear that has all your networking settings. If your using wireless then you will need to specify your wifi adaptor (usually wlan0) in preferences.

Now i think the blank screen problem when you run the browser in cleanmode or install then run it normally (cleanmode installs while loading the browser and deletes itself when closing) is caused by the same problem that is causing the strange behaviour and displaying the login prompt incorrectly.

Depending on your GPU this issue may be corrected by blacklisting an incompatible video driver or selecting a non frame buffered display mode for the boot sequence/ console etc.

Also with your save file make sure its not in a dir , it has to be in the main dir of the hdd or the "/" of the HDD or media its being stored on for it to be automatically loaded on boot.

hmmm a flashing underscore then ask you for password would have to mean that the first login asking for your user name isnt being displayed, then when you typed startx it thinks that your trying to login as startx username and this is why its asking you for a password.

but dont stress too much if your video hardware is incompatible as i have had this happ en to me with numerous puppies, for some reason some puppies work fine but others li ke spup or dpup or fluppy simply dont like my video hardware even tho there is no real reason for it to not work.
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Sylvander

Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 3447
Location: West Lothian, Scotland, UK

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 17:05    Post subject:  

1. "What model video card are you using?"
VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation NV5M64 [RIVA TNT2 Model 64/Model 64 Pro] (rev 15)
oem: NVidia product: Riva TNT Chip Rev B1

2. "Do you get a verbose output while Pussy is loading?"
Yes.
I notice that mention was made of the HDD in my external USB2-connected enclosure; thought that was strange.

3. "Do you get a colorfull "Pussy Operating System" ASCII graphic on the screen when you are prompted to login?"
Yes.

4. "What other things are displayed on the screen when you see this blinking cursor?"
Going from memory, and a few notes...
After the verbose display [in large text] showing the details of what is happening...
There is a change to a relatively short display of tiny text.
Toward the end of that there is:
meow login:
With about 8 to12 lines, all about eth0.
Seems to me there's no opportunity to input root at that login.
And at the bottom of that it terminates with a flashing underscore.
I waited a few minutes in the hope that it would proceed, but it didn't, so I entered the startx command.

5. "maybe it doesnt have enough ram left over to run properly"
The PC has 3x256MB = 768MB, but 161MB is used, only 644MB available.

6. "after you click on the network icon, a networking widget/icon/app whatever appears on the bottom right hand corner near where the time and the cpu usage meter is displayed on the JWM taskbar."
I did see that one time, but I clicked on the network icon and it disappeared.
The CPU usage meter was displaying OK.
I'll have another go at that.

7. "Also with your save file make sure its not in a dir , it has to be in the main dir of the hdd or the "/" of the HDD or media its being stored on for it to be automatically loaded on boot"
It's in an sdb2/06-Pussy folder right now, so I'll correct that by moving it into the root of sdb2.
DONE!

8. "a flashing underscore then ask you for password would have to mean that the first login asking for your user name isnt being displayed"
(a) If I do nothing it just sits there with the flashing underscore.
(b) So I type startx [which displays], and hit <Enter>, and...
(c) Instead of meow login: or user:, it displays password: and...
(d) When I give it the pussy password, it says this is an incorrect password, and...
(e) It then displays meow login: so I give it root, and hit enter, and...
(f) It then displays password: and I give it pussy and it accepts that and goes to the desktop.

9. "when you typed startx it thinks that your trying to login as startx username and this is why its asking you for a password"
(a) Is it OK, or wrong to do this, or should I do something different when presented with the original flashing underscore?
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CLAM01

Joined: 22 May 2010
Posts: 79

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 20:49    Post subject:  

sickgut,

I didn't try a usb install/run, only a live-cd and frugal. I wasn't able to make either work usably. I don't full install puppies, ever, for not seeing the point. Puppies make a virtual ramdisk from the main sfs image each frugal start up. That is the primary puppy security component, more responsible than anything else for puppy's security.

So, of course, I didn't try to install pussy to HD, either. I just imagined that would be the drill, as with pclinux (which I admit I have also never full-installed). I assumed pussy was for full install because it didn't run frugal for me and was demonstrator-like live-cd (like full install linuxes, whose live-cds run like puppy runs on a P 120 or 133 hardware with 32 to 48 mb ram and a 128 mb swap on an old and slow HD, where the puppy has to build its apps in the swap, transferring parts and libs from the CD).

Your pussy does look like a good learning project. It sounds like you've built pretty much from scratch.
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aarf

Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 3620
Location: around the bend

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 21:01    Post subject:  

Quote:
if this happends then the next release will be a finnished product and include all the missing things and the issues listed above will be addressed. If this happends then this will have nothing to do with puppy and its release will not be posted on these forums.

pm me the details.
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