spup-121.02 pre-alpha3 based on 13.37

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mikeslr
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Suggest Data Folders rather than Data SaveFile

#521 Post by mikeslr »

Hi All,

I had intended to just say "Ditto" to DaveS' response to Playdaz suggestion, adding only that I thought creating external Data Folders symlinked to / would be preferable to a Data.SFS, but before I could do so Minnesto identified one of the reasons why Folders would be preferable. SFSes are of fixed size and would have to be increased once they were filed with data in order to add more data. Folders will expand automatically up to the extent of the medium in which they are contained. [Of course, neither Folders nor SFSes could be used if Puppy was run from a non-rewritable CD/DVD without using some writable media for storage/persistence].

The second reason to prefer external Data Folders would be the ease of accessing the data from any operating system by those who dual or multi-boot.

The following is just me "brainstorming" beyond my level of experience to evaluate:
The aforementioned ease of access is a two-edged sword. For those running Puppy from a USB Key, anyone obtaining the key could access the data without having to boot into Puppy.
There are applications, such as Truecrypt, but their use requires a user to specify a code word before the folder is created, which may be something to confuse newbies. And I don't know if such additional applications are actually "entirely" necessary. I do know when creating a SaveFile one is offered the option of choosing the Ext2 format which can be encrypted. That suggests to me that Ext2 file systems can, themselves, be encrypted. But scanning the following seems to indicate that the size of the partition being created must be specified (i.e., subsequent expansion would require user intervention: gparted?).

http://www.goudkov.com/public/articles/ ... itions.jsp

In any event, at the cost of sacrificing a newby-friendly desktop without user intervention on first boot, what about a "Xorgwizard-like" first boot routine that would offer to create an encrypted data partition, or a first boot with optional boot to a desktop whose welcome screen would advise how to create encrypted Save Data Folders on reboot if that is desired?

mikesLr
Last edited by mikeslr on Sat 11 Jun 2011, 18:02, edited 1 time in total.

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DaveS
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Re: Suggest Data Folders rather than Data SaveFile

#522 Post by DaveS »

mikeslr wrote:Minnesto identified one of the reasons why Folders would be preferable. SFSes are of fixed size
That is what I meant by saying folders are 'dynamic'.
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Béèm
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#523 Post by Béèm »

Bert wrote:and what if the whole /root would be a symlink to /mnt/home/root?

Apologies if this is a stupid idea :wink:

EDIT Oops, I replied to cowboy, before seeing there were more posts after his...
I think people have tried it, but If I remember well there was a problem.
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Wireless not persistent & Restart X problem

#524 Post by mikeslr »

My wireless settings do not (or do not always) survive a reboot.

On mnt/home I have both a folder containing the xp portable Filezilla and a folder containing a Linux Version of Filezilla. The latter runs under Lupus. I have pets to create menu entries for both. Having used PPM to install wine into Slacko, and having successfully installed a couple of apps I run under wine, I had intended to install the menu entries for the XP Portable Filezilla but chose the wrong pet. As Filezilla did not run, I tried to use PPM to uninstall the pet that created the menu entry. As the menu entry continued to appear (possible problem with PPM?), I figured perhaps running shutdown>Restart X server might be required. A half-black, half-garbled screen resulted which persisted when Ctl-Alt-Backspace>Xwin was typed. Tried Ctl-Alt-Backspace>xorgwizard, which enable me to choose my settings, but xwin brought up the same garbled desktop. Booted into Lupu, deleted SaveFile, copied protected SaveFile to active position, and successfully rebooted into Slacko.

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cowboy
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spup 121.02

#525 Post by cowboy »

Initial download and test of Slacko 121.02 p3 seems promising on this machine. Run from Live CD, with 512MB savefile on USB stick. Booted to desktop, changed timezone and checked numlock, hit Xorgwizard button, Probe, and changed to 1024x768x24. Sound good, and stable through 5 reboots. Desktop stable through 5 reboots. Installed Firefox 3.6.13 from spup repository. USB optical mouse OK, hardwired keyboard OK. Reports below:

LSPCI

00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation 82845G/GL[Brookdale-G]/GE/PE DRAM Controller/Host-Hub Interface (rev 03)
00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation 82845G/GL[Brookdale-G]/GE Chipset Integrated Graphics Device (rev 03)
00:1d.0 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801DB/DBL/DBM (ICH4/ICH4-L/ICH4-M) USB UHCI Controller #1 (rev 02)
00:1d.1 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801DB/DBL/DBM (ICH4/ICH4-L/ICH4-M) USB UHCI Controller #2 (rev 02)
00:1d.2 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801DB/DBL/DBM (ICH4/ICH4-L/ICH4-M) USB UHCI Controller #3 (rev 02)
00:1d.7 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801DB/DBM (ICH4/ICH4-M) USB2 EHCI Controller (rev 02)
00:1e.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801 PCI Bridge (rev 82)
00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation 82801DB/DBL (ICH4/ICH4-L) LPC Interface Bridge (rev 02)
00:1f.1 IDE interface: Intel Corporation 82801DB (ICH4) IDE Controller (rev 02)
00:1f.3 SMBus: Intel Corporation 82801DB/DBL/DBM (ICH4/ICH4-L/ICH4-M) SMBus Controller (rev 02)
00:1f.5 Multimedia audio controller: Intel Corporation 82801DB/DBL/DBM (ICH4/ICH4-L/ICH4-M) AC'97 Audio Controller (rev 02)
01:09.0 Ethernet controller: National Semiconductor Corporation DP83815 (MacPhyter) Ethernet Controller
01:0a.0 Communication controller: Agere Systems LT WinModem (rev 02)
01:0c.0 Ethernet controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL-8139/8139C/8139C+ (rev 10)
01:0d.0 FireWire (IEEE 1394): NEC Corporation uPD72874 IEEE1394 OHCI 1.1 3-port PHY-Link Ctrlr (rev 01)

report-video:

IDEO REPORT: Slacko Puppy, version 121.02

Chip description:
00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation 82845G/GL[Brookdale-G]/GE Chipset Integrated Graphics Device (rev 03)

Driver used by Xorg:
intel

Video mode used by Xorg:
Resolution: "1024x768" Depth: Depth 24
[i]"you fix what you can fix and you let the rest go.."[/i] - Cormac McCarthy - No Country For Old Men.

gcmartin

#526 Post by gcmartin »

playdayz wrote:Seamonkey 2.1
This is the release of Seamonkey 2.1. ... significant...
Yeah. I don't know how many saw this post. Open this and move slider to 15 minute mark and watch for 1 minute as they compare to SeaMonkey.. It amazing how significant this browser's performance really is.

In Puppy, we have a propensity of reducing size and then complaining about performance. Let's not, this time. If I can double my performance on a single 20MB hit, I'll take the performance benefit! This is what is important to many users.

I'm not saying its the right solution for everyone, as everyone has their preference, but for an all inclusive browser with everything that SM does, I am just happy that the Mozilla community continues to bring us this complete subsystem. SM NEVER WAS A BROWSER. It is a subsystem!

Let's consider getting adjusted with SM 2.1 before the community begins its "slash and burn" mission by chopping pieces out of the product. It's unfortunate that this occurs on a stellar product, but ... oh well..

This is the wrong place to post this. We should have a SM only thread that gets updated for 32 and 64 bit PUPs as well as all the differing varieties of Repo contributions. Wow!.

Hope this helps

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#527 Post by 01micko »

Hi All,

I don't know if it's beyond the scope of a stock puppy to offer such things as saving and operating outside the savefile. Certainly in the immediate future I'm just trying to get this thing stable! (Xorg anyone? :roll: :lol: ). However this is all good feedback and I'm sure will be implemented at some stage.

For example, I don't particularly like the implementation if Fido. What it does if you select Fido at first shutdown is change all the ownerships of files and folders in /root to fido, which kind of makes going back to root on a temporary basis impossible, once you go back to root you stay there.

What could be a solution to that is create Fido's (or whoever's) working directory outside the save file, leaving root as root inside the save. Of course fido is a choice and anyone who likes running as root can continue to do so. Possibly this could be extended for 'root' to create a folder outside the save for all data and settings. Of course this would need to be a choice too as many people like everything inside the save file.

But like I said, before adding any new features I want to fix up the existing 'features' :) .

In the next version I am going to revamp the Xorg process once again, but also implement a way to catch the errors, which I should have done before, just didn't think of how. Previously I had asked people to post xorg logs and such. I did snag one (thx playdayz) which did help me to debug xorg. I am going to introduce a simple command that will zip up the log in the root directory.

One thing, I haven't heard of any sound bugs. Great! Especially since we are up to alsa-1.24 and using 2 new kernels.

Wifi woes.. yes I have experienced the intermittent wifi re-connections after reboot. I have recompiled wireless-tools but that is not the issue, the problem still exists. It may be something in SNS, I'll take a look. I also have to get a frisbee package together but it will not be in the iso by default. The reason is that frisbee connects to the net too slow for me after boot. You can always remaster with frisbee in if you want.

I am going to wait for a new woof before I rebuild. I may stick with 2 kernels, latest stable is a 2.6.39.1 and may compile that, just for fun (PAE on in that one maybe) :lol: . Actually I'm pretty surprised by the lack of kernel bug reports, although I suspect some gear (Brown Mouse and the browser woes) may not like some things in new kernels. And maybe with the new kernel I might fatten that one up a bit.. new SM.. other suggestions I'll take note.. but don't go overboard!

I'm also putting together more WM packages... did you see DaveS' tut on openbox/fbpanel? Cool stuff! I have it working and Icewm. (KDE is a goer too but it is FAT).

Hopefully the next version will be a true alpha, maybe the last alpha! Depends mainly on xorg.

Thanks for all the reports and discussion.

Cheers!
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DaveS
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#528 Post by DaveS »

01micko wrote: I'm also putting together more WM packages... did you see DaveS' tut on openbox/fbpanel? Cool stuff! I have it working and Icewm.
Small thing here Mick that I left out of the tutorial.... Spup is short of a couple of little scripts needed for Openbox to build a normal root menu, you know.. the right click pop-up menu. I did not include them because fbpanel does that job anyway, and it does allow the construction of a completely custom right-click desktop menu that wont get overwritten by fixmenus. But this is no good if the user wants to use Openbox WITHOUT fbpanel or maybe Openbox with Tint2 (my preferred option).
Anyway, the missing parts are in the tiny .pet below. May need including in the new Spup?
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openboxmenu.pet
(13.19 KiB) Downloaded 496 times
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#529 Post by playdayz »

Seamonkey 2.1 Optimized

In the previous version of the post with the "supposedly optimized" version of Seamonkey 2.1 (on page 35), the Seamonkey 2.1 was not actually any faster than the generic download from mozilla.org. I do not know why. But this one is.

Seamonkey 2.1 compiled with -march=amdfam10--that is, for AMD Phenoms, scores 4009

The i686 version of Seamonkey 2.1--which is the one available now--scores 3751.

The generic version of Seamonkey 2.1 from mozilla.org scores in the low 3600's. The generic version of Firefox 4.0.1 also scores in the low 3600's.)


Seamonkey 2.1 -> http://diddywahdiddy.net/Puppy500/Seamo ... 1-i686.pet

You can compile Seamonkey for your cpu with the instructions for compiling Firefox (http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=67756). You can get the seamonkey source from http://releases.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla ... ce.tar.bz2 You need to change the configure command to

Code: Select all

# ./configure --enable-application=suite --prefix=/usr
.
Last edited by playdayz on Sun 12 Jun 2011, 15:52, edited 1 time in total.

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#530 Post by playdayz »

I don't know if it's beyond the scope of a stock puppy to offer such things as saving and operating outside the savefile.
Yes. True.

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Béèm
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#531 Post by Béèm »

gcmartin wrote:I'm not saying its the right solution for everyone, as everyone has their preference, but for an all inclusive browser with everything that SM does, I am just happy that the Mozilla community continues to bring us this complete subsystem. SM NEVER WAS A BROWSER. It is a subsystem!
I agree with you that the Mozilla community should continue developing.
They say
SeaMonkey

SeaMonkey® is the all-in-one application formerly known as the "Mozilla Application Suite", containing a web browser, a mail and newsgroups client, an HTML editor, web development tools, and an IRC chat client.
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Re: Pardon my ignorance, save file size

#532 Post by Béèm »

Minnesota wrote:Pardon my ignorance of how the file system and PupSave actually works.. by why is there any restriction on the size? Most file systems allow for expanding number of records in a file. Why is the file a fixed length? What is unique about the way our save file is structured that it can not automatically expand?

Most devices that we save to.. Hard disk, stick, CD, DVD, all can handle expanding file sizes. Certainly it is necessary to determine maximum space for a save, that is, is there enough space to make the save. That should be easy to determine.
This is nice reading material.In the forum there have been lots of discussions about the save file.
If you increase it, a warning is issued not to go beyond 1.8GB.
But there are people who have reported that they worked with one of 4GB.

It has never been absolutely clear why there is a limit.
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Re: Pardon my ignorance, save file size

#533 Post by James C »

Béèm wrote:
Minnesota wrote:Pardon my ignorance of how the file system and PupSave actually works.. by why is there any restriction on the size? Most file systems allow for expanding number of records in a file. Why is the file a fixed length? What is unique about the way our save file is structured that it can not automatically expand?

Most devices that we save to.. Hard disk, stick, CD, DVD, all can handle expanding file sizes. Certainly it is necessary to determine maximum space for a save, that is, is there enough space to make the save. That should be easy to determine.
This is nice reading material.In the forum there have been lots of discussions about the save file.
If you increase it, a warning is issued not to go beyond 1.8GB.
But there are people who have reported that they worked with one of 4GB.

It has never been absolutely clear why there is a limit.
For what it's worth, I'm using a couple of 8 GB save files now..... haven't noticed any problems.( Lucid 525 and Spup)

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Re: Pardon my ignorance, save file size

#534 Post by Béèm »

James C wrote:
Béèm wrote:
Minnesota wrote:Pardon my ignorance of how the file system and PupSave actually works.. by why is there any restriction on the size? Most file systems allow for expanding number of records in a file. Why is the file a fixed length? What is unique about the way our save file is structured that it can not automatically expand?

Most devices that we save to.. Hard disk, stick, CD, DVD, all can handle expanding file sizes. Certainly it is necessary to determine maximum space for a save, that is, is there enough space to make the save. That should be easy to determine.
This is nice reading material.In the forum there have been lots of discussions about the save file.
If you increase it, a warning is issued not to go beyond 1.8GB.
But there are people who have reported that they worked with one of 4GB.

It has never been absolutely clear why there is a limit.
For what it's worth, I'm using a couple of 8 GB save files now..... haven't noticed any problems.( Lucid 525 and Spup)
You beat the record.
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#535 Post by playdayz »

If you increase it, a warning is issued not to go beyond 1.8GB.
But there are people who have reported that they worked with one of 4GB.

It has never been absolutely clear why there is a limit.
Could that be from back when the largest file Windows 98 could handle was 2 GB?

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mikeslr
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Functional & Stable First, Innovations Second

#536 Post by mikeslr »

Hi 01micko,

Apologies if it appears that we sort of hi-jacked the Slacko thread. Speaking for myself, I know I can get carried away. You are, of course, correct to remind us that obtaining a functional and stable operating system must be the first priority and accomplishing that must be the primary focus of this thread.
My introduction to Linux and Puppy was to burn a CD and install it via Lin' And Win'. Puppy did what it did because that was the way it did it, just as once we interfaced with a computer via a keyboard because that was the way someone designed it: but then someone invented a mouse. Had Puppy been originally developed using external folders for apps and data we might now be somewhere discussing the possible benefits of including such within the OS/SaveFile.
So by way of mitigation, I would point out that currently this is the only thread of a cutting edge system in active development --compare Saluki, which still remains just a discussion-- AND which has drawn the attention of Puppy's most experienced Pupplet developers, such as yourself, playdayz. ttuuxxx, Iguleder, and pemasu. Consequently, you'll have to blame yourself for the distraction.(':wink:') If you attract the participation of the eminent, you should not be surprised by the appearance of "True Believers" waving placards however irrelevant.(':lol:')

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Re: Functional & Stable First, Innovations Second

#537 Post by cowboy »

mikeslr wrote:...Had Puppy been originally developed using external folders for apps and data we might now be somewhere discussing the possible benefits of including such within the OS/SaveFile....
"plus ça change" and so, so, true.
[i]"you fix what you can fix and you let the rest go.."[/i] - Cormac McCarthy - No Country For Old Men.

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#538 Post by DaveS »

01Micko/Playdayz... there might be something interesting going on here http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 194#534194
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#539 Post by Aitch »

Further to gcmartin's post earlier.....Open this.....I carried on watching the google i/o video....ChromeOS/Chromebooks look interesting, but scary....

Could this mark the death of computing as we know it....there's certainly a big push to put everything on the web.....but isn't it just a computing rental service??

Aitch :)

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Googlebooks

#540 Post by mikeslr »

Hi 01micko -- sorry to divert the thread again.(':twisted:')

@ Aitch: "Scary?" How un-American of you. (':shock:') Have you forgotten our credo:
"Government can do nothing right. Big business can do nothing wrong."

The next thing we can expect is that you'll suggest that George Orwell's vision was distorted: Big Brother shouldn't have been the government, but rather an unbridled corporation having exclusive control over everyone's sensitive and vital information, including the nominal members of the government.(':(')

Information is power. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. (Paraphrase, Lord Acton).

Essau surrendered his birthright for a plate of beans. Freedom will die not in agony on the battlefield, but with an unconscious shrug against a petty annoyance. Who will watch the watchers?

Edit: Furhter in this thread, Aitch kindly points out that I had mistyped "wathers" when I intended "watchers" in the above sentence. So I've changed it. If you google the name "Wathers" you see Google is already watching them.(':roll:')

mikesLr
Last edited by mikeslr on Fri 17 Jun 2011, 04:05, edited 1 time in total.

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