A single voice to speak for Puppy

[WhoDo]

When I was project coordinator for Puppy, first with 2.15CE and later with 4.2x series, there was a cacophony of voices clamoring to be heard on the subject of what Puppy could or should be. In the beginning it was easy to pick out the voices of reason, but in the end there was so much "sound" that it became almost impossible to "hear" what was good, and reasonable, and important above the din. It became abusive to my ears when some elected to follow the path of repetition in monotones and I grew tired of listening very quickly. There is a lesson in that for those who are willing to learn.

With the Puppy Community being now so large, especially if you include the voices of Puppy lovers in Vietnam, China, India and South America, it is nigh on impossible for project coordinators or developers to "hear" what everyone has to say. A "seat at the table" is meaningless if the table is many times larger than the largest banquet hall table ever imagined; how can anyone hear anything when everyone is talking at once? Users of Puppy who feel ignored by the hierarchy, amorphous as that is with Puppy, need to find a single voice so they can address their issues in unison and have some reasonable chance that voice will be heard. Here then is my humble suggestion for a way forward for Puppy, leaving behind the discord that comes with a cacophony of sound.

1. Start a Puppy Linux Users Group (PLUG).

The advantages are that (a) the voices of many can be united in a single, much more powerful voice, (b) those who need to hear only need listen for that single voice and (c) no permission is required from Barry Kauler, the current project coordinator or any of the developers. Let the users come to the PLUG with their issues and let the developers tap that PLUG when they need ideas in pursuit of their hobby. That will result in a nexus that both groups can accept and appreciate; the users will have a place to voice their concerns and desires and the developers will have a well to voluntarily draw upon when they are seeking direction for their creative ideas.

2. Choose a place for the PLUG

Whether it be a part of this forum (not recommended IMHO) or another place where those elected to administer the PLUG have more direct control, the PLUG will need to be clearly visible and accessible to ALL Puppy users, including those who are also Puppy developers. In this day and age it seems logical for that place to be in cyberspace, so all can have direct access, but it must be moderated to ensure that all will have an equal chance to be heard or seen. Perhaps it can be linked from or hosted by puppylinux.org, or maybe puppylinux.com if Barry is inclined to offer those. If not, find your own place.

3. Choose a small team of PLUG leaders

It doesn't matter who these people are in terms of their technical ability with Linux or Puppy. It only matters that they are prepared to listen to the user base and are capable of logically organising the cacophony of sound into a single, representative voice.

4. Establish a charter for the PLUG

Set the boundaries early on. An advisory group needs its politicians to express the group's desires in a palatable way without the risk of alienating those who need to hear them. The PLUG should be a mammoth "filter" of sorts; removing those strident yet unreasonable and discordant demands while harmonising the rest into a single stream of ideas.

5. Promote the PLUG

Everyone needs to understand where the "speakers" are located, so they can connect their input or listen to the output. It would not be unreasonable to have several sub-PLUGs located in various centres around the world and dedicated to translating the local voices into a common language for the master PLUG to represent. That is crucial to give voice to the hitherto silent majority in those countries mentioned earlier. Hacao in Vietnam, Tutu in France and a multitude of other NES Puppy derivatives and their devotees would be forever grateful, I'm sure.

Understand the PLUG

Puppy development will never change. It is conducted by hobbyists and volunteers in the true spirit of Open Source and following its creator's innovative model of Fun First! If you think that model is unusual, I suggest that you revisit your knowledge of Google and its development process for an example. The PLUG must be prepared to accept that it cannot compel volunteers; it must instead appeal to them in every sense of that word. They have to WANT to follow the wishes and desires of the PLUG. No-one develops in a vacuum. There is always a payout somewhere, although it may not be the payout that many might expect. Those who do it for kudos will WANT to satisfy the desires of the multitude represented by the PLUG; no compulsion will be necessary. Those who do it to learn more about programming and software development will look to the PLUG for new challenges. Those who do it for the simple pleasure of seeing their work used will find a hungry user base at the PLUG.

Those who have truly been craving "organisation" for Puppy will see an opportunity in the PLUG. Those who have merely been exercising their discordant voices will lose their excuse to complain, at least about that. This is something that users can DO to be heard without pleading with the volunteer developers, who now are frequently unable to focus their efforts in the face of an incoherent cacophony of demands for change. It is a positive suggestion and I hope it will be viewed in that light. It is a suggestion that I have made before, albiet not for quite the same reasons, and it hasn't been acted upon. Like all suggestions, it will be worthless if someone - anyone - isn't prepared to DO something with it. If you have the WILL then you will find the WAY.

Good luck and farewell.

[oligin10]

Well thought and well said. Thanks WhoDo for trying to bring some order to the current situation.

[WhoDo]

Well thought and well said. Thanks WhoDo for trying to bring some order to the current situation.

Thanks for your interest, oligin10.

[Jasper]

This seems to me to be the most practicable and detailed solution thus far (though it would still need much flesh on its bare bones).

Personally, I'm happy with the status quo, but for those who are not this thread seems like a good place to have a fresh start and a polite, objective and reasoned debate.

Some may not agree, but why not explain why without resorting to personal insults?

PS I, at least, would appreciate pithy comments and discussion with only salient extracts as opposed to full quotes so that the whole thread is more easily digestible.

[harii4]

very good
Sounds like something this:

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=62363
by toowoombalinux

PuppyTLC OS is a project by the Toowoomba Linux Community for old reconditioned computers to give to families in need or crisis. While talking to the Salvation Army I found out they have a need for this kind of service - and that they need 400+ computers for the families going through their crisis centre!

development blog:
http://toowoombalinux.wordpress.com/

Puppytlc forum:
http://z15.invisionfree.com/PuppyTLC/index.php?act=idx

[shariebeth]

Just saw this now.

I think it is an excellent idea. Although I do caution you using Google as your comparison. They spend a lot of money and manpower analyzing what users want and do and need and adjust their product accordingly.

That said, I agree pretty much with your assessment of the situation, WhoDo, especially about the noise (and yes you can say it, I've made some ) It is hard to weed out the useful and reasonable requests and suggestions and after a while, it's just too much work to filter out the real noise. I get it. It doesn't validate the problem, but I do get it.

My concern is this: would the "devs" be willing to listen? Would they even care what PLUG had to say? Would anything change in the long run?

[pemasu]

Puppy Linux and also derivatives changes all the time. Developers have eyes and fingers to follow all the time. And there are always those who whines all the time. To have ideal solution which creates ideal harmony is impossible.

I have noticed during my 30 years of working and helping people that whining is unstobbable behavior of some people. If there is about 3-5 whining people in the forum, that is something you cant change with whatever you do. And it is also normal situation. But those whining people have big mouth, loud voice and they sometimes posts to the threads they have nothing anything else to say but whine and not even about the things which are on the table in that thread. They just follow persons who posts and make irrerelevant arguments because that other person posted to that thread.

I am afraid whining is the most meaningfull engine to some people so that they feel they live. Seeing positive side of the things and seeing negative sides of thing has profound roots in persons personality.

I wont even try to change that. I think it is quite impossible without person noticing there is something which needs change in his behavior.

Also whining has positive sides. People stop to think if there really is something behind that whining. Usually there is, but the importance of that sake is usually smaller than the whining person thinks. And after reading repetive posts you get tired and you close eyes of that person whining and so you also lose the important message buried in those repetitive post and hundred words.

Making Puppy Linux Community better place is not my business. I have fun, I see the positive side of building Puppies, I use Puppy as my main OS and I likek posting with people. I try to not use much my time and energy reading whining posts all time. That takes the fun out of my time with Puppy.
This is hobby, resting place from your work, and place to share ideas and get feedback, reports and learn new thing all the time.
And this is my last post in this thread.

I support PLUG as one new way to coordinate Puppy development. But probably I will use my time mostly following Puppy development threads like I have done so far and spending time in #pupppylinux irc also. In fact many great ideas have been exchanged there.

This kind of positive feedback is the salt of spending time in puppyland and that kind of communication keeps me here. The creative, positive attitude and enjoying of what you have and what you get.

Lovely, that's all I needed to know, I have xbindkeys, but havent touched the config... Will have a look at what you gave me.. and thx for the extra info and of course the PETs.. Very much appreciated.

[nooby]

WhoDo very good.

I don't think PLUG should be here on Murga either. it is too much noise already.

What about the established puppy community on LinuxQuestions. Would they mind if the forum's Puppy part was also used for talking PLUG things on it?

Does one have to ask them first or could we just decide that we try to set it up there.

if it is sensitive one could use their PM to be used and then their threads would not get filled with PLUG things until everything has iron out into something that majority approve of?

hm one voice can be optimistic but could one not have voting and presenting the three things with most support and let that be the first "voice"

[alienjeff]

if it is sensitive one could use their PM to be used and then their threads would not get filled with PLUG things until everything has iron out into something that majority approve of?

You mean like managing from a vacuum? Consider Developing the Developer.

[nooby]

AlienJeff, I am a very naive person and I know almost nothing but I sure love computers and was among the first to buy such in Sweden Z80 Sinclair and all the others. But I am not only computer challenged I am a fuzzy thinker so sadly I can not be of much help in developing a Developer but from the years me have been active on Puppy forum I know one thing.

Nooby know one thing.

The way to get something done is to make the Dev happy and to not make demands. Friendly support and a cheer and a smile and all just works.

Criticism kills the fun in coding so that should be avoided.

That is what I want to contribute with. So bit it!

[shariebeth]

I find it exceedingly obnoxious that any attempt to fix something or improve something, or even bring it to attention is labeled as whining.

I find it mind boggling that ignoring all flaws and problems and only presenting happy-happy-joy-joy and glowing praise no matter what issues are under the surface is what some people think is good for the distro and the devs.

I love my daughter but I am not going to turn a blind eye if she does something harmful to herself or others, or makes a mistake, or wants to stay up all night on a school night because it is fun. That is not in her best interests, and I will point that out and attempt to correct it.

I suspect that WhoDo's idea here would get plenty of support and volunteers IF (and only if) Barry and the devs agree to listen and work with the group. I would volunteer.

What's needed:
1. Organized documentation system
2. A stable base puppy version, regularly updated for bugs and upgrades needed to keep up with linux at large. (By this I mean an official version that does not rely on other distros for packages.)
3. A cutting edge division where everyone can work on their own derivatives and move puppy forward with everyone else.
4. A retro division to make sure puppy works for the people it was originally intended to work for: the old and less-than-optimal pc's and laptops that need special distros.
5. A Help-Desk division that includes these forums and the IRC channel. Yes, the IRC channel. Ours needs an overhaul, but yes. The IRC channel.
6. Liason division between Barry-devs and the users, that Barry and the devs actually would listen to and take seriously and CARE.

What could I help with:
Anything that doesn't involve coding. That I guess would be determined if anything concrete actually took form.

[Bert]

I'm biased, as WhoDo is one of my heroes.
What he's proposing here is full of wisdom. It is the most tolerant and humane proposal amidst the turmoil of fighting egos.

But i am not sure starting yet another Puppy site would be that beneficial. I happily visit these forums on an almost daily basis and my (too?) simple conclusion is that there are just a handful of whiners, spoiling the atmosphere for many of us Puppies. Some members of this forum have a "talent" at writing destructive things eloquently...

There are just a few guys posting with what seems the deliberate intent to lower the temperature towards freezing. Despite the fact a few of them are gifted writers, the end result of their efforts in these forums is always the same: doubt, subtle hatred and confusion.

I think WhoDo opened a fundamental discussion here: how can Puppy keep evolving in its friendly, natural, inspiring and unpretentious ways, allowing ever more 'puppyness' into its development, while at the same time dealing with 'egotic' individuals, that seem to arrive here with an agenda full of demands, insults and hubris.

I don't see the answer right now, but appreciate his effort.
Hope the "Farewell" is not to be taken too literally

[puppyluvr]

Hello,
Cant help but notice that repeated requests to SPECIFICALLY state the problems, have gotten only the run around, no answer...
Pot...meet kettle...

[Ridgy]

I have not read every thread here yet. I am still working on it but from what I have seen so far you have a very nice forum and community. Every question I have asked so far has been answered with enthusiasm and courtesy. The only thing I could suggest is that several times people have chosen to send me help via PM. This is generally discouraged elsewhere as anybody later searching the forum for the same answer will not be able to find it.

I would also suggest dumping the IRC though. It seems to be causing more headaches than it is worth and several other forums I have been associated with had shoutboxes. They all degenerated into a festering cesspool and we had to get rid of them. Mostly we use Skype chat rooms now. In by invitation and very quickly out if you make it necessary.

[puppyluvr]

Hello,
BTW, I once again see the title as an oxymoron...

[WhoDo]

I find it exceedingly obnoxious that any attempt to fix something or improve something, or even bring it to attention is labeled as whining.

Not every "attempt to fix something or improve something, or even bring it to attention is labelled as whining"; certainly not by me and most of the devs I have dealt with anyway. Whining only starts when the answer is "No" and the user won't accept that answer or any reasons that may be offered. I think a PLUG would be better able to help the average user understand why the answer might be "No" sometimes, or maybe "Not now" at other times. If you admit that the devs and the average user are often speaking different languages (see AJ's link in this thread for reference), then what is required is translation in both directions, wouldn't you agree?

I find it mind boggling that ignoring all flaws and problems and only presenting happy-happy-joy-joy and glowing praise no matter what issues are under the surface is what some people think is good for the distro and the devs.

I can see how that might be the impression when the answer is either "No" or "Not now", but the problem often has nothing to do with ignorance of faults and blind allegiance to a party line of some description. It instead usually has to do with some technical issue that cannot be easily resolved but is just too difficult to explain in user-speak, or because the only willing devs with free time simply don't know how to do that. Many of the devs here are self-taught and still learning their craft. That's the nature of Open Source development when there is no corporate structure paying for professionals.

I suspect that WhoDo's idea here would get plenty of support and volunteers IF (and only if) Barry and the devs agree to listen and work with the group. I would volunteer.

As I said in the original post:

Puppy development will never change. It is conducted by hobbyists and volunteers in the true spirit of Open Source and following its creator's innovative model of Fun First! If you think that model is unusual, I suggest that you revisit your knowledge of Google and its development process for an example. The PLUG must be prepared to accept that it cannot compel volunteers; it must instead appeal to them in every sense of that word. They have to WANT to follow the wishes and desires of the PLUG. No-one develops in a vacuum. There is always a payout somewhere, although it may not be the payout that many might expect. Those who do it for kudos will WANT to satisfy the desires of the multitude represented by the PLUG; no compulsion will be necessary. Those who do it to learn more about programming and software development will look to the PLUG for new challenges. Those who do it for the simple pleasure of seeing their work used will find a hungry user base at the PLUG.

What that means is that the power of the PLUG is in the numbers of users that support it, not in the devs agreeing to do what it wants. The technical restrictions and development issues don't go away because someone says "Whatever you want, I'll do it"! That's just not realistic unless the people making the requests understand fully what are the limitations and restrictions that apply in the technical sense.

What's needed:
1. Organized documentation system
2. A stable base puppy version, regularly updated for bugs and upgrades needed to keep up with linux at large. (By this I mean an official version that does not rely on other distros for packages.)
3. A cutting edge division where everyone can work on their own derivatives and move puppy forward with everyone else.
4. A retro division to make sure puppy works for the people it was originally intended to work for: the old and less-than-optimal pc's and laptops that need special distros.
5. A Help-Desk division that includes these forums and the IRC channel. Yes, the IRC channel. Ours needs an overhaul, but yes. The IRC channel.
6. Liason division between Barry-devs and the users, that Barry and the devs actually would listen to and take seriously and CARE.

What could I help with:
Anything that doesn't involve coding. That I guess would be determined if anything concrete actually took form.

These are a great place to start, shariebeth.

Item 1 has been attempted a few times before using the wiki as a resource, so there should be plenty of kick-start material available. The problem has usually been getting someone willing to toil "in the back room" getting the actual docs written.

Item 2 is already there waiting to be packaged. There is the T2 base in Woof upon which all non-aligned Puppies have been built since 4.0.

Item 3 is already a reality. What is lacking is the mechanism to feed innovations back into the base. At the moment there are at best only 1 or 2 devs able to commit stuff to Woof for the future. That's not a bad thing but it does slow the process. There was some discussion about a CVN implementation that would allow all sorts of people to commit code to a repository for evaluation and testing. Since Pizzasgood left that seems to have withered on the vine; one of the drawbacks of volunteer devs having other lives means they sometimes have to return to the real world. We will always have a shortage; that's a given.

Item 4 is presently Barry's baby because that's the reason he started Puppy all those years ago. The current implementation is Wary, which uses the same T2 packages as the main non-aligned Puppy built from Woof. The differences are in the older kernel and drivers for hardware no longer supported elsewhere like dial up modems.

Item 5 would be great, and I once suggest a roster system so we could offer help 24/7 world wide; Puppy Help would never sleep! There are enough committed users and devs in various time zones to be able to do this, but it needs some underlying structure to document faults in a knowledge base so support people don't have to go looking everywhere or reinvent the wheel. That would require a Help Desk support database and pool of users with access to search and update the information. It's not impossible in a voluntary organisation but it needs driving by someone willing to commit to oversee the process and plug the gaps when they appear.

Item 6 already exists in a defacto fashion using Barry's Blog. Any of the devs who post there can also answer there and Barry can enlighten all with his wealth of knowledge on all things Puppy. If the PLUG were to post its requests and concerns there, in a common approach rather than as each individual posting their wishes, I have absolutely no doubt Barry and the devs will listen; just understand that for reasons already suggested, sometimes the answer might be "No" or "Not now". PM's are good for explanations between the devs and PLUG, and the PLUG can put things to the average user in a way they may better understand and accept.

BTW, in answer to the questions of one or two other posters, I have not just posted this and walked away, as this reply will hopefully convey (hope you don't mind me tacking it on here, shariebeth). I also don't want this to be a WhoDo project! There are those here that may not accept it under any circumstances if that were the case and that would be a shame. I have no intention of being the one to start the PLUG, manage it, or see it develop into a useful adjunct for Puppy. I am willing to help behind the scenes, if required, within the limits of my current life commitments.

I offered this suggestion because I got tired of old ideas that have been tried before and failed continually resurfacing. I think this is something that can work IF the users here have the will to make it happen. The reason it can work is precisely because it doesn't require anything of the devs UNLESS they want to be involved. It's a USER group, not a DEV group.

Any dev with half a brain, and the majority here certainly more than qualify on that count, will WANT to contribute what they can to the wishes of the community PLUG. When I started with 2.15CE I didn't have to beg and plead for devs to support the project, even though it was a community project pure and simple; I had devs coming and offering whatever skills they had and all I had to do to keep them happy was to honestly value their input no matter what it was and regardless of whether it appeared in the current version or was opened up for further refinement by others. Most were also happy to get help solving problems they couldn't solve themselves because it was a learning experience and part of the fun.

And finally, I used the term "farewell" in its original sense; that you should fare well (enjoy success) in the PLUG endeavour IF there are enough doers willing to actually roll up their sleeves and organise things for themselves and the community.

Cheers.

[shariebeth]

@WhoDo:
I think it is important for me to clarify in your mind, maybe in others' minds although I thought I was clear, what I mean by "work with". When I said the devs would need to be willing to work with PLUG, I in no way meant "cater to whatever they want|demand|expect|report-in-as-wanted-by-users".

What I mean is, would the devs and Barry be willing to listen? To discuss with PLUG or even a single leader of PLUG (however it would shape up) reasons for "No" or whatever. I don't expect devs and Barry to like all ideas users have or be able to do them all for technical reasons. "No, it technically can't be done because of xyz" and "No, it can't be done because none of us know how to" or "No it won't be done because that just is not the plan for this version because xyz" and even "No, it can't be done because it takes too long and we really need to get this out now!" ARE all acceptable answers.

What isn't acceptable is being ignored, or being told "No, go away, quit begging and whining and just be grateful for whatever gets put out here, you are just a whiney bitch." or "No, everything is fine as it is, stop rocking the boat" or "We want to have fun, we don't want to do clean up and fix the bugs, that's not fun! Go away you ungrateful USER!"

See the difference? Pretty sure you can see the second group of examples has happened here as well.

And yeah, alienjeff's article link hits that nail right on the head.

Anyway, I would be happy to be a liason person, I would be happy to coordinate help desk stuff, I would be happy to work with organization.

But: The devs and Barry should be asked at least, if they support this idea and would be willing to participate in the manner I suggested in the first group of examples. Would they even be interested? I think it is a fair question, and fair to expect an answer to that from them personally, before people put out the immense amount of effort required.

I repeat. I am not looking for catering to PLUG from them, just an acknowledgment from them the group would exist and a willingness to listen, consider, and discuss and explain, (and maybe admit once in a while regular users might have a good idea too). If they think this is a bad idea, you really can't expect people to bother with it.

Same with organization of documentation, puplets, packages, everything: Everyone who hosts something, from an informational site to the puplets to the packages...needs to agree to participate as well...if only "some" of the information out there is organized, Puppy is still a mess. We need input from these people as well.

And lastly WhoDo, thank you for discussing. We may have different opinions, but you always take the time to try to explain...and without hurling insults. As always, it is greatly appreciated.

[shariebeth]

I'd just like to comment here I am in no way affiliated with the "other posters" here you refer to, in thought or action, here or in any other thread. Meh.

[puppyluvr]

Hello,
Ironic choice of name...
https://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=gr ... 6249522117
I just created it for friends to post screenshots etc...

[WhoDo]

But: The devs and Barry should be asked at least, if they support this idea and would be willing to participate in the manner I suggested in the first group of examples. Would they even be interested? I think it is a fair question, and fair to expect an answer to that from them personally, before people put out the immense amount of effort required.

I repeat. I am not looking for catering to PLUG from them, just an acknowledgment from them the group would exist and a willingness to listen, consider, and discuss and explain, (and maybe admit once in a while regular users might have a good idea too). If they think this is a bad idea, you really can't expect people to bother with it.

Ok, in that context and with that objective I understand and agree with you. The best way to achieve that is to post a PM to Barry explaining your intentions and asking if they can be posted in his Development Blog for comment. Use my forum handle in the subject line or content and link to this thread if you think that would help you to get his attention. If he agrees then you already have a BIG head start. Approached in the appropriate spirit I don't see why he wouldn't support the idea.

Many of the devs don't actually frequent the forums. Some do, but often only visit selected areas or threads of interest. The occasional dev might browse the suggestions threads for ideas but seldom answer any questions. Their time is mostly preserved for the coding geekiness they enjoy. Devs are rarely "social" animals IME. Only the Project Coordinator and occasionally the lead developer will venture into the forums on a regular basis, looking for bug reports, suggestions and opportunities for improvements. Barry's Blog is the only place I know of where they all pay attention at some time or other, although there's still no guarantees. I'm sure most of them would react positively to a PLUG that would essentially represent a Beta testing pool with suggestions for improvement.

Same with organization of documentation, puplets, packages, everything: Everyone who hosts something, from an informational site to the puplets to the packages...needs to agree to participate as well...if only "some" of the information out there is organized, Puppy is still a mess. We need input from these people as well.

Until you have a PLUG, there is no coherent place for that input. Most of those groups would heartily support a single stream of input vs lots of different often conflicting ideas about things, AFAICT. It was in the spirit of providing such organisation and connections that I paid for puppylinux.org for almost a year. Unfortunately the comments there became abusive and the moderator was forced to close that feature as counterproductive.

And lastly WhoDo, thank you for discussing. We may have different opinions, but you always take the time to try to explain...and without hurling insults. As always, it is greatly appreciated.

Thank you, too, shariebeth. I have always been willing to discuss, despite what some others may believe.