How to partition new HD for XP and Puppy?

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Bruce B

#21 Post by Bruce B »

ubume2 wrote:Actually, I think I see the poster's concern. I had
raised the question regarding my frugal install into a partition
that was occupied by a linux os.

I noticed that the linux os went through more frequent check disks
at the beginning of the boot.

Personally, I would not place a frugal install inside a Windows
install. Look at it cross eyed and something goes wrong.
Emphasis mine.

I install Linux on linux partition types. It seems technically sound,
logical, straight forward to me. Actually very beneficial and optimal,
I wish to add.

However, Gparted, NFTS, Windows partition is the standard
recommendation on this forum. Change will not occur.

The first advice to enter was in support of, well, here are the
words, "Frugal install on the WinXP partition will do just fine"

Can you argue against that suggestion?

I could, but it would not do one bit of good. The OP took the advice
and went with it. Problem is solved.

In this particular, the drive is bare. Three or four DOS files from
the format /s command. That is it and we don't recommend Linux
format partition and we do recommend Microsoft format. This is
not exceptional. It is pretty well the standard here.

I read your post. I hear you.

Wish to add: mill0001 did recommend a Linux partition, but it
was, I think too late.

~

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#22 Post by ICPUG »

Bruce B wrote:However, Gparted, NFTS, Windows partition is the standard recommendation on this forum. Change will not occur.
If 'on this forum' means 'on this forum thread' then I agree.

I don't think it's generally true of the forum as a whole. There are many installation methods proposed.

I am an advocate of installing to Windows partitions BUT only when a Windows partition exists. I think Nooby, in his first response, was saying the same thing. The OP said he wanted Windows to exist - so Nooby said, as I would, stick the frugal on the NTFS partition cos it is already there. No need to make it difficult for yourself by adding other partitions.

If we have situation where there are only linux partitions at the start then make it easy for yourself and stick your frugal on a linux partition.

Bruce B

#23 Post by Bruce B »

Brian,

Here are the [Sara's] conditions

I have a 120GB hard drive that I would like to partition for:

- frugal install of Puppy 4.3.0 retro
- XP (yes, I know, but I need it for some things)
- data to be shared between Puppy and XP

[ the drive was bare. Sara only ran DOS fdisk and format.
She is willing to change things ]


Her questions are:

- how many partitions do I need
- how big should they be
- what formats to choose

~~~

What would you like to recommend if you could? I'm not trying to
corner you, not at all. No two of us ever come up with the same
partitioning scheme. I am curious and I'll be pleased to tell you
what I'd recommend. Only I don't want to influence you by saying
in advance. Is this OK with you?

Bruce

~

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RetroTechGuy
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#24 Post by RetroTechGuy »

Bruce B wrote:Brian,

Here are the [Sara's] conditions

I have a 120GB hard drive that I would like to partition for:

- frugal install of Puppy 4.3.0 retro
- XP (yes, I know, but I need it for some things)
- data to be shared between Puppy and XP

[ the drive was bare. Sara only ran DOS fdisk and format.
She is willing to change things ]


Her questions are:

- how many partitions do I need
- how big should they be
- what formats to choose

~~~

What would you like to recommend if you could? I'm not trying to
corner you, not at all. No two of us ever come up with the same
partitioning scheme. I am curious and I'll be pleased to tell you
what I'd recommend. Only I don't want to influence you by saying
in advance. Is this OK with you?

Bruce

~
Well, I'm not Brian, but here's what I did with my Windows XP system (IIRC, I have a 250GB drive): http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 744#521744

Given a bare 120 GB drive, with XP to be installed, I would probably:

Partition 1) a 15-20 GB piece as NTFS -- install WinXP here.
Partition 2) a 120 GB minus 1GB, minus 15-20 GB formatted NTFS.
Partition 3) 1 GB Linux swap.

(that should add to 120 GB, if the math was right).

Or, alternatively I would make 4 partitions, basically as shown in my post above (noting that 1 GB of swap should be plenty).

Then, after installing XP and getting it fully functional and up to date, and installing a Puppy and Lin'N'Win setup, but before filling up partition #2 with other user files, I would perform a full backup using a tool such as Clonezilla (onto an external drive). Now you can restore a functioning system to a new, bare drive if needed.

The Frugal Puppy could reside on either partition, at your option. If you're going to place Puppy on the 1st partition, I would lean towards the larger size for #1 (since Puppy will eat up a chunk of disk space nearing 1GB).

All the user files (documents, pictures, movies, music, etc) are to be stored on partition #2 -- which makes incremental backups of the OS partition easier, since you're not loaded with other junk. And partition #2 should be backed up (i.e. simply copied) to an external drive periodically...

Of course, there would really be nothing wrong with 119GB NTFS partition, 1GB swap (using the entire drive in 2 partitions). Given that, I would boot Puppy, and use gparted to resize the main partition down by 1GB, and add the 1GB swap...

We should also note that multiple Frugal Puppies can be installed, each in their own folder.

And lastly, the Lin 'N Win instructions are easier if you boot up your Puppy to install, and perform the required file editing from there (since you don't need to un-hide, and un-protect the system files to modify them -- I would, however, make a copy of them before editing...just in case).

BTW: http://www.icpug.org.uk/national/linnwi ... innwin.htm

And when you get to this step, being booted from Puppy, you can directly edit the boot.ini file: http://www.icpug.org.uk/national/linnwin/step2-xp.htm
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#25 Post by Bruce B »

RetroTechGuy

As far as format type, IMO, you did right advice to the extent of
using MS format type. Here is why
- data to be shared between Puppy and XP


If that is what she wants there isn't the option for Linux
formats. Unless, she wants to have them and install XP extender to
access them.

The only thing is you choose NTFS and her original format was
FAT32, she didn't say why.

I don't know why FAT32 and why not any Linux except for the
access criteria.

Bruce

~

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#26 Post by RetroTechGuy »

Bruce B wrote:The only thing is you choose NTFS and her original format was FAT32, she didn't say why.
I went with NTFS, as Fat32 won't support files larger than 4GB (i.e. if you have large tarballs, movies, etc, you will have a problem -- otherwise Fat32 is just fine). I use my machine for movie editing (which is really the only reason why I kept XP).
I don't know why FAT32 and why not any Linux except for the access criteria.
I think Fat32 is more well known, and less likely to experience file system corruption, than NTFS. And if the above doesn't apply (4GB files), then I think it is superior (other perhaps less efficient file storage -- so each stored file will tend to eat more real space).

The other thing with Fat32 is that Linux can reliably repair it (I've had poor luck with Linux repairing NTFS).
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#27 Post by Bruce B »

I prefer FAT32 for the same reasons. And I have lots of nice tools to
work with it.

So, it would be FAT32 partitions, especially on C:

An NTFS for the big files and Windows + Linux read and write on the
'big file partition'

How about that?

~

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#28 Post by RetroTechGuy »

Bruce B wrote:I prefer FAT32 for the same reasons. And I have lots of nice tools to
work with it.

So, it would be FAT32 partitions, especially on C:

An NTFS for the big files and Windows + Linux read and write on the
'big file partition'

How about that?

~
Sure, that sounds fine also... And I would install XP and Puppy on C: (Fat32).

I think that I may do that the next time I reconfigure my machine...
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#29 Post by ICPUG »

Bruce and Retro,

I usually don't get to this forum at the weekend so you have had to wait for my reply - sorry.

I don't see where Sara says she wanted FAT32 but all your discussion seems pretty reasonable.

To the three questions I would respond:

How many partitions do I need? How Big? What format?

You can get away with one big NTFS partition to have a frugal Puppy, XP and ability to read and write from Windows and Puppy.

If you like to keep data separate from the Windows software and apps it is good to have a separate data partition which should be NTFS and as big as you want it. Your Windows partition needs to be big enough for Windows XP and its software. Mine is about 30GB and I have the usual mix of office and normal home use software.

For the reasons you and retro mention about FAT32, such a partition is nice to have if you are worried about Linux writing to NTFS. If I had it then I would probably not make it more than 10GB.

Here are some guidelines I follow:

Install Windows XP first. It likes to take control so if you install 2nd it will remove the booting options of anything previously installed!

If you are going to partition use Windows to create NTFS partitions and FAT32 partitions. If you are desperate to create Linux partitions then I would use GParted from Puppy.

Install a frugal Puppy on Windows XP via the Lin'N'Win approach (I'm biased on that one - since I wrote it - but it covers EVERYTHING (except Windows 7) and I don't believe the Universal Installer does). Noryb's exe file is an OK alternative - I just like to do things manually.

Summing Up:

The very simplest approach is to Install windows XP and let it create one big NTFS partition.

Install Puppy frugal by Lin'N'Win

Done.

If you want any extra partitions make them NTFS and FAT32 as suggested above and make them at the Windows Install phase by doing a custom install.

-----------------------------------------------

I now have a Windows 7 machine with exactly the same problem. I had it fitted with 2 x 500 GB hard drives. Initially I asked my supplier to partition the disks in a mix of formats but they refused without charging me more. In the end we agreed on 200GB NTFS partition for Win 7 and 300GB NTFS partition on the first disk. The second disk is blank.

When Win 7 gets installed it creates a small recovery partition which takes another primary partition.

My plan is as follows:

Leave the recovery partition and the Windows partition well alone. Some people seem to have problems reducing the size of the Windows Partition and trying to reclaim the space.

Reduce the size of the 300GB NTFS partition to create a small (10 GB) FAT32 partition. This is for Windows 98 (don't ask) and some FAT32 data.

The second disk will be formatted with Linux partitions and used for testing full installs.

Puppy will be installed frugally as per Lin'N'Win, modified for Windows 7, on the Wndows 7 partition. I'm hoping the grub4dos menu can be adjusted to boot any full Linux installs on the second disk as well as Puppy, Windows 7 and the Windows 98 on the first disk. I like a challenge!

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#30 Post by RetroTechGuy »

ICPUG wrote:Bruce and Retro,

I usually don't get to this forum at the weekend so you have had to wait for my reply - sorry.

I don't see where Sara says she wanted FAT32 but all your discussion seems pretty reasonable.
She just said that she wanted Linux/XP compatibility. Linux can read/write NTFS with reasonable reliability, but I believe Fat32 has superior reliability from the cross platform standpoint. The drawback is files greater than 4GB (for example, I have an old Hauppage TV card, running on Win98 -- it ejects a video file every 4GB, if the record time runs longer than about 1.5H, so merging those files requires a file system that supports large files).

Additionally, my experience has been that Puppy cannot repair a corrupted NTFS (and with Puppy Frugal sitting on one of those Windows partitions, it might be better to have one in which you could boot to RAM, and repair the first partition (IIRC, it is fsck.vfat):

Code: Select all

fsck.vfat /dev/sda1
Windows XP will run fine from a Fat32 partition, so both OS would be happy. And since Windows files aren't larger than 4GB, there's no issue.
To the three questions I would respond:

How many partitions do I need? How Big? What format?

You can get away with one big NTFS partition to have a frugal Puppy, XP and ability to read and write from Windows and Puppy.

If you like to keep data separate from the Windows software and apps it is good to have a separate data partition which should be NTFS and as big as you want it. Your Windows partition needs to be big enough for Windows XP and its software. Mine is about 30GB and I have the usual mix of office and normal home use software.
My first partition, without Puppy coexisting, is 15GB. So anywhere in that range would probably be fine. Putting Puppy on partition 1, I would probably size partition 1 to be 20 or 25 GB.

I should note that my XP laptop came with a 20GB drive when I bought it (used) -- I later upgraded the drive to a 250GB.

I like to separate Windows from user files, since user files are "just files" but the WinXp system must be backed up with special software. So the troublesome partition is small, and the rest of the files are just periodically copied to an external backup drive (so I'm also more likely to perform regular backups of those user files -- incrementally).
For the reasons you and retro mention about FAT32, such a partition is nice to have if you are worried about Linux writing to NTFS. If I had it then I would probably not make it more than 10GB.

Here are some guidelines I follow:

Install Windows XP first. It likes to take control so if you install 2nd it will remove the booting options of anything previously installed!

If you are going to partition use Windows to create NTFS partitions and FAT32 partitions. If you are desperate to create Linux partitions then I would use GParted from Puppy.
Yes, so during the initial format (though Windows) I would leave about 1 GB at the end of the disk. Then from Puppy/gparted create a 1 GB swap partition. One could also just create a 1 GB swap file (I don't know if the access efficiency/speed is the same for the file, as the partition)...
Install a frugal Puppy on Windows XP via the Lin'N'Win approach (I'm biased on that one - since I wrote it - but it covers EVERYTHING (except Windows 7) and I don't believe the Universal Installer does).
Thank you for Lin'N'Win -- I love it. :D :D :D

In the past, I would get the Debian live-boot installer, which does a very good job of installing grub, without wrecking your Windows install (I have not tried it on Win7). Lin'N'Win makes a reversible modification, which is even better.

The only change I make in your procedure is, after downloading the files, I boot to Puppy and do the editing from there (since Puppy doesn't know that Windows has hidden/protected the boot.ini). Then you can promptly perform a frugal install, copy the menu code over, and it's ready to rumble... :D
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#31 Post by ICPUG »

Thanks for the additional comments Retro.

Your idea of using Puppy to modify boot.ini so you don't have to worry about the system and hidden bits is useful.

When I created Lin'N'Win one of its targets was to allow people who did not have CD writers to install Puppy and try it out. Therefore, I could not assume they could boot Puppy to modify the boot.ini.

Also, it was geared to people familiar with Windows but not Linux. Consequently, I tried to use Windows tools as much as possible.

Despite that - if you are familiar with Puppy and can boot it then using it to modify boot.ini is a welcome simplification of the process.

Bruce B

#32 Post by Bruce B »

ICPUG wrote:Despite that - if you are familiar with Puppy and can
boot it then using it to modify boot.ini is a welcome simplification of the
process.
Hi Brian,

Reading the above line - a thought crossed my mind. DOS and Unix
use different line endings.

DOS : carriage return / linefeed
Unix : linefeed

If the user drops the CR by using a Linux editor, I wonder if the
boot.ini file still gets read right when booting.

Bruce

~

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#33 Post by RetroTechGuy »

Bruce B wrote:
ICPUG wrote:Despite that - if you are familiar with Puppy and can
boot it then using it to modify boot.ini is a welcome simplification of the
process.
Hi Brian,

Reading the above line - a thought crossed my mind. DOS and Unix
use different line endings.

DOS : carriage return / linefeed
Unix : linefeed

If the user drops the CR by using a Linux editor, I wonder if the
boot.ini file still gets read right when booting.

Bruce

~
I edited my boot.ini with Geany, on my XP system, and it worked fine.
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#34 Post by Béèm »

RTG, do you mean with the windows version of geany?
It might be that that version acts differently as the linux version.
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Find packages in a snap and install using Puppy Package Manager (Menu).
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#35 Post by Bruce B »

RetroTechGuy wrote: I edited my boot.ini with Geany, on my XP system, and it worked
fine.
That would work because Geany notices the line endings - changes mode to preserve them.

~
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#36 Post by RetroTechGuy »

Béèm wrote:RTG, do you mean with the windows version of geany?
It might be that that version acts differently as the linux version.
Oh, sorry. I didn't know that there was a Windows version of Geany (I just use Notepad under Windows).

I used the Geany editor installed in Puppy (since I booted Puppy, and modified the boot.ini from there -- no "unprotect" and "unhide" of Windows files needed).
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#37 Post by RetroTechGuy »

Bruce B wrote:
RetroTechGuy wrote: I edited my boot.ini with Geany, on my XP system, and it worked
fine.
That would work because Geany notices the line endings - changes mode to preserve them.

~
Interesting, and useful to know.

My favorite command line editor ("mg") is OS aware, and converts to the local ending type (so a DOS/Win CR-LF text file is converted to Linux LF, upon edit and save). Of course, that isn't always what you want...
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#38 Post by Béèm »

RetroTechGuy wrote:
Béèm wrote:RTG, do you mean with the windows version of geany?
It might be that that version acts differently as the linux version.
Oh, sorry. I didn't know that there was a Windows version of Geany (I just use Notepad under Windows).

I used the Geany editor installed in Puppy (since I booted Puppy, and modified the boot.ini from there -- no "unprotect" and "unhide" of Windows files needed).
Geany for windows :wink:
Time savers:
Find packages in a snap and install using Puppy Package Manager (Menu).
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