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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions
Users and Developers - Symbiotic Relationship
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puppyite


Joined: 23 Jul 2009
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Location: U.S., Midwest, Central Time Zone, GMT-6

PostPosted: Thu 19 May 2011, 15:52    Post subject:  

technosaurus wrote:
Symbiotic means that devs also get something useful in return, I don't see anyone offering any kind of bounties.

My reward for creating the Puppy Linux FAQ consists of messages of appreciation.

I bend over backwards for anyone who earnestly asks my help.

What do you want, a payday?

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8-bit


Joined: 03 Apr 2007
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Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Thu 19 May 2011, 16:02    Post subject:  

puppyite wrote:
8-bit,
Just to be clear, your post does not apply to me.


I was not pointing fingers at anyone!
I also know that by you having a website that supports Puppy, you are helping out.
To give you a problem I have with helping out with donations to support the costs of maintaining sites for Puppy and also donations to BK, I do not have any type of internet money transfer.
So how do I give funds that I am reasonably sure will arrive where they are supposed to?
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mickee


Joined: 08 Feb 2011
Posts: 212
Location: Saskatoon SK Canada, Gateway 5300 Laptop, 600MHz Celeron, 384MB RAM, lucid puppy 5.2 (Full Install)

PostPosted: Thu 19 May 2011, 16:30    Post subject:  

RetroTechGuy wrote:
technosaurus wrote:
Symbiotic means that devs also get something useful in return, I don't see anyone offering any kind of bounties.


Thus the typical user is in a parasitic relationship with the devs... Wink


This, I believe is a true statement (of most users..), as it is not a true symbiotic relationship. That is not to mean that the parasite doesn't sometimes have something to offer a dev if it provides them with an idea, or a way to improve their build and thus provide them with something (maybe just a good feeling, I dunno...)

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puppyite


Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Posts: 758
Location: U.S., Midwest, Central Time Zone, GMT-6

PostPosted: Thu 19 May 2011, 16:49    Post subject:  

8-bit wrote:
puppyite wrote:
8-bit,
Just to be clear, your post does not apply to me.


I was not pointing fingers at anyone!


OK. I just wanted to make it clear that I have not approached any developers with demands.

Quote:
I also know that by you having a website that supports Puppy, you are helping out.
To give you a problem I have with helping out with donations to support the costs of maintaining sites for Puppy and also donations to BK, I do not have any type of internet money transfer.
So how do I give funds that I am reasonably sure will arrive where they are supposed to?


If you have PayPal see this thread about donating to Barry.

The donate button is on the right just down from the top on this page.

I tried to putting a direct link to Barry’s donate button in this post but it times out so no joy there.

If you’re offering to donate money to me thank you very kindly however I don’t have a donate button on the Puppy Linux FAQ. If ever I do I’ll let you know.

If you can’t use PayPal I did a search for “internet money transfer” and got quite a few hits. One was Western Union where you can send money directly or maybe get a prepaid card which I assume is same as cash.

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technosaurus


Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 4351

PostPosted: Thu 19 May 2011, 17:23    Post subject:  

$$ would be nice but only a small part of the barter system.
Ex. If you are a retailer with a product that you want to see supported, donating one to a kernel maintainer could be a smart barter.

It doesn't even need to be a physical trade - Things like documentation, code cleanup, spelling, readability & grammar checks, translation, etc... come at the bottom of the todo list for most devs.
verification and clarification of bug reports can save lots of time
or offering to upload (or even host) large numbers of packages ... I for one had so many that I just invented a way to maintain them as a single script.
it all depends on their abilities
Basically trade work that you _can_ do for coding that you can't = win/win

for example- I would offer to port the puppy web desktop's (pupweb.org/desktop) header menu system with webapps and a better forum search and integrate the rest for use @ puppylinux.*

I considered setting up some appropriate affiliate programs in a support context,, but it is really time consuming to set up.

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puppyite


Joined: 23 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Thu 19 May 2011, 17:43    Post subject:  

All this talk of parasites, bounties and barter sounds rather mercenary to me. I don’t think of Puppy Linux FAQ visitors as parasites. IMO anyone who needs a payday from volunteer work might need to step away from it for a while. YMMV
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Q5sys


Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Posts: 1049

PostPosted: Thu 19 May 2011, 19:47    Post subject:  

puppyite wrote:
Admittedly I have no tact or people skills. My only allies are logic and strategic thinking.

Says the man who said he had no reason to explain himself to others, yet wants others to be accountable to him an follow his desires.
Logic and Strategic, Mr. Carroll; are not one of your strong points, else you would not have talked yourself into a corner in your last thread... which ironicly timed perfectly with the creation of this one.


puppyite wrote:
technosaurus wrote:
Symbiotic means that devs also get something useful in return, I don't see anyone offering any kind of bounties.

My reward for creating the Puppy Linux FAQ consists of messages of appreciation.
I bend over backwards for anyone who earnestly asks my help.
What do you want, a payday?


Well since you want to advocate this 'democracy system'. How about giving all of us a vote on how you created the FAQ. Since you feel that democratic vote should determine the path of development... I for one vote that you make it pink with purple pokadots. Oh and it should have a bouncing talking dog that reads the contents of page out to anyone visiting.
Now do as you've been asked, and make that happen. Cause if you dont do it you're being selfish and refusing to do whats been suggested (the same things you've said about the 'Royality' as you put it.)

(and so there is no confusion. That last paragraph is meant as sarcasm, to hopefully show you how some people may feel about your suggestions. I say 'hopefully' in ernest. )


Aside of it all... its pretty pathetic that all this uproar is over a simple number. If you look at the thread about 5.3, lots of people advocated making a slack based puppy be v6. However only one person has spawned multiple threads and seems to be on a holy crusade to force this issue. Others have spoken their ideas (which includes me) and have left it up to those who are making the decision. I mean are we really that petty that the number 5 vs 6 is worth this much dissention?

And I gotta be straight here, I think its going to be pretty pathetic if Barry has to get involved to silence this mess. I'm sure by now Barry and 01micko and playdayz, have talked about this mess. Is it any suprise that they are keeping silent? This is like a middle school fight. So much drama about this. Lucid development can continue with the current number scheme. We arent limited to just 2 numbers. Hell Wary is at v5.1.1.56 right now I think.
Yea I'd like to see a slack base as v6. But I have other things in life that I need to focus my thought and energy on. It must be nice for someone to have this much time on their hands to dedicate to a simple matter.

nothing else in life to worry about and focus on.

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puppyite


Joined: 23 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Fri 20 May 2011, 11:40    Post subject: Update  

I have added the following to the OP:

When I made the OP for this thread I hoped that others would suggest ways as to how users might have a “seat at the table” concerning the direction of Puppy Linux. To allow for this I omitted making any concrete proposal about how to accomplish this goal. Upon further reflection and because no one has stepped up to take this challenge I have decided to suggest a method. Here is roughly what I propose:

A governing council representing both developers and users should be formed. The two groups will consist of equal but odd numbers. I.E. Three developers and three users or five developers and five users. Any issues resulting in a tie would be resolved by vote of Barry Kauler. This voting scheme should ensure that decisions represent the will of the community.

Ideally the developers would either be former or current lead developers.

Ideally the users would be average users with moderate skills who have no experience or involvement in development either of Puppy Linux or any other software.

Council members should be nominated and selected by public elections. The term of office for members should be one year.

Council members of both groups would actively seek input from their respective constituencies publicly through polls and by seeking input directly from the community.

I want to make it clear that my proposal is not for the purpose of gaining personal power. If my proposal or any other governing scheme that provides users a “seat at the table” is adopted I will not seek election during it’s inaugural year.

Also I have no idea how nominations and elections for a governing council can be accomplished. Hopefully if this goes forward someone will devise a method. Obviously this is a work in progress.

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jonyo

Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 2727

PostPosted: Fri 20 May 2011, 12:58    Post subject:  

in a large body making decisions, typically there is a motion put forward

there must be a seconder to the motion

then there is discussion and debate including possible amendments to the motion

then it is put to a vote, someone is delegated a vote in the event of a tie

large bodies making decisions usually have governing rules of order that might be of consideration here, for example Robert's rules of order

http://www.robertsrules.com/

Last edited by jonyo on Fri 20 May 2011, 13:23; edited 1 time in total
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Fri 20 May 2011, 13:22    Post subject:  

My opinions are not very informed at all. I've only looked from the wayside of fast running cars swishing by but everything I experienced on Puppy forum up to now tells me that you puppyite get what puppy is very wrong.

Puppy is what the devs and those users the devs feel have enough knowledge to give reliable feedback to them and devs only do things because they have an inner drive to do them.

Not because puppyite or Nooby or somebody else demands things.

To go on like you have done could even kill their puppy spirit.

Nope encouragement and positive feedback and our thankfulness is what could work and friendly hints that don't make any demands.

I trust you make too many demands.

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jonyo

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PostPosted: Fri 20 May 2011, 13:26    Post subject:  

i say the above is limiting and will only take you so far not to mention i'm not concerned in the least about this part
nooby wrote:
To go on like you have done could even kill their puppy spirit.
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jonyo

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PostPosted: Fri 20 May 2011, 14:01    Post subject:  

i would also add that at this point, as far as i'm concerned puppy is bigger than any one man
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puppyite


Joined: 23 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Fri 20 May 2011, 14:22    Post subject:  

I don’t give nooby’s posts too much credence. As was pointed out to me by Aitch he’s a “special case.” I suspect he uses this to good advantage, note how garbled that post was, doubtless he's baiting me.
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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
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Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri 20 May 2011, 14:49    Post subject:  

puppyite wrote:
I don’t give nooby’s posts too much credence. As was pointed out to me by Aitch he’s a “special case.” I suspect he uses this to good advantage, note how garbled that post was, doubtless he's baiting me.


The reader will also note that English is not Nooby's native language -- despite that, his English is quite good (as is true with many of our other non-English speaking contributors).

But we should also note that Nooby head the nail right on the head with his comments...

A "governing council" could very well cause the developers to abandon ship.

But the test could be run -- rather than continually trying to highjack a running, functional system, which is creating Puppy Linux. Puppyite could create a puplet project, in which to test his hypothesis about "democracy". If proven out, it might be adopted elsewhere. If it fails, then the answer will be known.

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jonyo

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PostPosted: Fri 20 May 2011, 14:53    Post subject:  

users can also abandon ship at any time for whatever reason, it's the beauty and reality of having options
Last edited by jonyo on Fri 20 May 2011, 15:00; edited 1 time in total
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