Users and Developers - Symbiotic Relationship

What features/apps/bugfixes needed in a future Puppy
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RetroTechGuy
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#21 Post by RetroTechGuy »

Q5sys wrote: If users were providing some benefit to the devs in some way... then it would be a symboitic relationship and it would be in the devs best interest to heed the wishes of those who support them.
Hence my suggestion for a "BeerPal" program... ;)

How else can I sent a beer or twelve to our gracious benefactors?...

But it could just as easily be a "bounty" on a new app, program, or patch... If enough people add to the bounty, the problem would be resolved.
But without users benefiting devs... what you are asking the devs to do... is surrender to a few thousand back seat drivers as it were.
I don't see the devs agreeing to even a couple back-seat-drivers. I do see them quitting, if a popular vote determines what they will work on. Why would they subject themselves to such a form of slavery?...
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RetroTechGuy
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#22 Post by RetroTechGuy »

Caneri wrote:Y'All can speak on this topic until the world ends (May 21 or Saturday or maybe Sunday or..)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBdeCxJmcAo
If anyone of you tall and expensive gents spent a small amount on puppylinux.ca/asia it would still be active.

You see, things cost money no matter what you think.
I thought that the primary cause of death of puppylinux.asia was the host killing off "stored files"...

I still wish that we could have moved them someplace more tolerant of bulk file storage...
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tlchost
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#23 Post by tlchost »

Caneri wrote:Thom,
I'm still pissed about you having access to fresh fish,clams and the like. and soft shell crab!!!....you prick...;-)
Eat your freakin' heart out!
Wonderful to hear from you, but the solar is still TRYING to be completed. We have floods of rain here so construction is off (again)...not to mention a new Canadian gov may pull the carpet from under my feet....
Likewise...sorry about the gubmint....one must realize that in a balanced system, someone or something has to be the roadblock to progress.

Thom

nooby
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#24 Post by nooby »

RetroTechGuy wrote
quote
I don't see the devs agreeing to even a couple back-seat-drivers. I do see them quitting, if a popular vote determines what they will work on. Why would they subject themselves to such a form of slavery?...
/quote

Very true words. That is as it should be too. To pay them would kill Puppy spirit instantly. Puppy should be fun for the volunteer Dev and not a slave job for low salary forced upon them by demanding users.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

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WhoDo
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#25 Post by WhoDo »

puppyite wrote:I am president of my homeowners association. It is an elected position for which I receive no pay or compensation of any kind. The vice president and treasurer are also unpaid, uncompensated volunteers.
Like I said in the old thread, Deja Vu all over again! I presume this is what you're looking for?

Puppy Linux Foundation

Every couple of years this quest for "organisation" surfaces in the Puppy community. It never makes it past the gabfest stage, despite a willingness on the part of many talented individuals to play a role. Puppy simply doesn't work that way. If you "organise" FUN it ceases to exist. That is why Puppy remains a proud do-ocracy! :roll:

And to add to the links previously supplied, what about this one?

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=66820
[i]Actions speak louder than words ... and they usually work when words don't![/i]
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ICPUG
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#26 Post by ICPUG »

WhoDo wrote:Every couple of years this quest for "organisation" surfaces in the Puppy community. It never makes it past the gabfest stage, despite a willingness on the part of many talented individuals to play a role.
It never makes it past the gabfest stage because the Puppy developers are not willing. I reluctantly accept that situation.
WhoDo wrote:If you "organise" FUN it ceases to exist.
That's a sweeping generalisation. Holiday Camps, like Butlins in the UK, organised FUN. Some people love 'em. Some people, including me, hate 'em.

Puppy Developers are in the class of people who hate organised fun - that does not mean that fun cannot be organised - just that Puppy developers cannot be organised!

tlchost
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#27 Post by tlchost »

ICPUG wrote: - just that Puppy developers cannot be organised!
Like herding cats...if you can;t do that, you can't get them to go to the meeting.

Thom

Who has only developing pictures experience.
Last edited by tlchost on Thu 19 May 2011, 14:44, edited 1 time in total.

puppyite

#28 Post by puppyite »

Here is a prime example of intransigence promulgated by do-ocracy.

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RetroTechGuy
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#29 Post by RetroTechGuy »

ICPUG wrote:
WhoDo wrote:If you "organise" FUN it ceases to exist.
That's a sweeping generalisation. Holiday Camps, like Butlins in the UK, organised FUN. Some people love 'em. Some people, including me, hate 'em.

Puppy Developers are in the class of people who hate organised fun - that does not mean that fun cannot be organised - just that Puppy developers cannot be organised!
But, even if they're fun for the those who play and attend, they're typically not fun for the workers and the plan coordinators.

Applied to this Puppy discussion, such "planned FUN" would be fun for the users, but would not be fun for the developers... And if the devs aren't having fun, then they'll probably go fishing or sit in the back yard with a beer, instead...
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#30 Post by RetroTechGuy »

puppyite wrote:Here is a prime example of intransigence promulgated by do-ocracy.
Didn't even read this, did you?

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 777#523777

Let me echo and applaud Bert's observation.

The system is not broken, so don't try to impose your fixes on it. Start your own distro, and run it as a democracy, and leave those who want to run their projects the "old way" alone...
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puppyite

#31 Post by puppyite »

RetroTechGuy wrote:Didn't even read this, did you?

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 777#523777
I did and I addressed it here

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RetroTechGuy
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#32 Post by RetroTechGuy »

puppyite wrote:
RetroTechGuy wrote:Didn't even read this, did you?

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 777#523777
I did and I addressed it here
Which didn't really address this:
Bert wrote:If frustrated, power-hungry peasant individuals would be boss here, it would kill all creativity, all friendships, all excitement. It would be the shortest way to kill Puppy.
Your response simply reiterated your desire that you would like a democratic boss to control Puppy Linux. All of Bert's comments are equally valid under that context.

By all means contribute suggestions and recommendations as a community member, but stop trying to demand that someone else (i.e. the devs) do it your way. I see no good whatsoever coming from such demands...
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8-bit
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#33 Post by 8-bit »

Just jumping into this to give my 8 bits.
When Barry made the first puppy and users helped squish bugs, would puppy have continued if the users of it demanded that it look a certain way and have applications and utilities of their choosing.

The way I see it, the DEV are making puppy because it is fun and also a challenge.
They have ideas as to what the end result should be and build puppy accordingly.
So a user comes along and says that the release is great, but could it be made with a different word processor or browser or include a shitpot full of games or more utilities.
That same user has NEVER tried or successfully built a distro and does not want to.
They want the developer to create a custom distro just for them.
And that is where the problems start.
It is the users that want specific things in puppy and keep ragging about it till the developer gets fed up and puppy is no longer fun.
Or maybe I should say that the developer gets fed up with the rants and goes elsewhere where his work is appreciated.

puppyite

#34 Post by puppyite »

8-bit,
Just to be clear, your post does not apply to me.

puppyite

#35 Post by puppyite »

RetroTechGuy,
Your continued pretense of ignorance and your obfuscation of my words is clearly a troll.

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RetroTechGuy
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#36 Post by RetroTechGuy »

puppyite wrote:RetroTechGuy,
Your continued pretense of ignorance and your obfuscation of my words is clearly a troll.
Do you mean that I implied that you said something such as:

"... decisions are made and that generally speaking decisions about Puppy Linux are not made democratically (or if they are they do not include peasants, a.k.a. average users, such as myself). ..."

I have intended no obfuscation of your words. If you meant something other than what I have read, enlighten me...
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Aitch
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#37 Post by Aitch »

http://www.relationships-explained.com/ ... iosis.html

Perhaps the unhealthy symbiosis relationship is not what you had in mind....but were drawn to by your ego model....?

Personally, I prefer personal feedback and encouragement

Aitch :)

puppyite

#38 Post by puppyite »

I have made proposals, not demands. If anyone is confused on this point then they failed to grasp my intent.

puppyite

#39 Post by puppyite »

I do not derive any personal benefit from what I have proposed other than that which I fully expect all users to share in.

The unhealthy element here is the corrosive environment created by some forum members.

Admittedly I have no tact or people skills. My only allies are logic and strategic thinking.

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#40 Post by RetroTechGuy »

puppyite wrote:I have made proposals, not demands. If anyone is confused on this point then they failed to grasp my intent.
I'm afraid that I have read "democratically" as a demand. A democratic vote on a direction for Puppy Linux, would likewise be a "demand".

You could instead establish some polls, of the sort "what would you most like to see in the next distro" -- which gives feedback to our resident experts of what would be nice to have, but keeping in mind that they are requests, not demands.

There may very well be technical reasons for not pursuing a particular request. Or the converse may be true as well. For example, I'm not particularly happy about this request from "rcrsn51", since I regularly use .DEB packages: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 322#516322

But I do understand the reasoning behind rcrsn51's request -- and I would request that an alternate installation tool be provided, if this is disabled. Or perhaps better yet, just have the installer warn/nag the user that that they should perform a backup, before performing this sometimes risky operation. But ultimately, I will just use whatever the devs give us...

You could also have polls cover: "what is most irritating in Puppy x.xx?", "what do you feel is broken?", "prioritize the list of irritants/broken items" -- which also gives feedback to the devs.

Perhaps the hardest part about the forum is that fixes and patches often already exist, often buried in some of the threads, but finding them is quite difficult.
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